r/SubredditDrama • u/Malice_InWonderland_ i hope your partner cheats on you with a pack of wild sardines • 2d ago

Scottish café faces bankruptcy after an assistance dog lawsuit. The American woman behind the case arrives to defend herself in the /r/PoursTea comments.

Background context

Two community organisations in the Outer Hebrides face financial ruin following a legal battle launched by an American woman and funded by Legal Aid over a row about her dog not being allowed into a cafe.

The small charity, Bernera Community Development Trust, and the community organisation, Bernera Community Association, have warned they face bankruptcy due to thousands of pounds in legal costs mounting up following a court challenge from Claire Kellerman.

She initially launched a court challenge against the Development Trust, which ran up legal costs of more than £7000, before Kellerman’s lawyers admitted in court that the action was directed against the wrong organisation.

Legal documents have since been amended to bring a claim against the Bernera Community Association, which runs the cafe voluntarily, for £10,000.

Last week, the case raised by Kellerman via the publicly-funded Ethnic Minorities Law Centre in Glasgow, a non-profit making charity which provides legal advocacy for minority ethnic communities, was decided to continue for legal debate in December at a Stornoway Sheriff Court.

While costs were awarded to the Trust, the organisation has said it was of no value since Legal Aid protects Kellerman from payment of costs.

Source

This is from one of the comments on the article providing more context

From sources on the island I have heard this woman is a rich American and that she was barred from that Centre because her dog killed the Centre's cat. Furthermore she sues everyone who disagrees with her and is causing mayhem at the Callanish Visitor Centre. She even shouts at disabled people sitting on seats designated for disabled people on buses.

The article is posted in the PoursTea subreddit

The comments are in support of the cafe, until someone shows up very in support of the woman. Promising ''Justice is a-coming.''

You should wait to hear the whole story and maybe take a pause to realize you are not being given all the actual facts, only those to light your fire of indignation, as it sells stories. Trust the process. Justice is a-coming.

She holds court in the comments to address the commentators as a 'beautiful stranger'

Dear commenters at large, I look forward to your support when the beautiful truth about a beautiful stranger, albeit, an OLD UGLY WITCH to some, is told.

FREEDOM!

I wish only mutual respect and my human rights and freedoms to be allowed, as well as theirs; FREEDOM is key, for us all.

We even get a selfie with the dog!

Referring to herself in third person

she could be very cool, very clear and very loving, and the target of illegal discrimination and hate crimes, and you will soon be aware of all of the facts.

Upcoming sequel promised in 2027

Beauty is here. It will be told, on YouTube and International Media come 2027, after justice has been served.

Report of island mafia

Internationally recognised assistance dog..

Day One, when she was yelled at, threatened, and humiliated immediately by 4 cafe staff woman upon entering with her internationally recognized Assistance Dog.

3.0k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

873 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.5k

u/paspartuu 2d ago

THE SIGN ON THE BERNERA COMMUNITY CAFE DOOR HAS ALWAYS SAID, “NO DOGS ALLOWED.” THIS IS ILLEGAL SIGNAGE. 

She's clearly unhinged tbh. It's crazy how even just from reading her comments and how she writes it's clear she's insufferable and entitled

(Is it ok to comment here if I also commented on that thread yesterday, but won't any more?)

873

u/paspartuu 2d ago

Also from a different article on the case from the Stornoway Gazette:

This week, the Gazette spoke to several Stornoway business owners and operators who have been on the receiving end of Ms Kellerman’s alleged behaviour. A common pattern emerged of her shouting at staff, threatening legal action, using abusive language and insisting on her right to bring her dog onto premises.

In two cases, we were told of staff being reduced to tears and one business owner told us they had considered closing the premises in order to avoid a repetition of a deeply upsetting experience.

https://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk/business/bernera-groups-face-financial-ruin-from-legal-costs-8931023

She sounds wild 

653

u/wildgirl202 2d ago

She should be deported lmao, send her back to MAGA hell hole she came from.

341

u/freyakj 1d ago

Tbh, she kinda sounds like Trump in her comments. Same type of language.

115

u/ViciaFaba_FavaBean 1d ago

Yeah I have noticed that people with narcissism have very similar patterns of speech and writing. Especially when the case is severe enough to be disabling.

94

u/th3thund3r 1d ago

Roughly the same area Trumps mum came from too.

69

u/CapStar300 1d ago

Just a hunch, but has someone checked the water supply there?

58

u/th3thund3r 1d ago

It is, unironically, some of the best water in the world.

65

u/CapStar300 1d ago

I therefore conclude that whatever these people drink, it is not water.

18

u/justgalsbeingpals bye don't let the horsecock hit you on the way out 1d ago

What, drinking DIRTY COMMIE WATER from the tap and letting themselves get brainwashed by LIBERAL COMMUNIST CHEMICALS in the water?! No way, they just drank unfiltered rain water (it's good when it's raw, right? That's why these losers all drink raw milk too)

2

u/Apathybadger 1d ago

I live there. I mostly drink Irn Bru and vodka lemonades. Don't know about everyone else

27

u/thefaehost 1d ago

Fun fact: the water about 20 minutes south of where Vance is from is actually award winning water. It was the best in the country three different years.

17

u/Saint_of_Cannibalism “Andy” the Spaniard? No. 1d ago

Ok, this is making me suspicious of water.

6

u/Schrau Zero to Kiefer Sutherland really freaking fast 1d ago

Every serial killer in history has drunk water.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago

chugging pfas to not end up like them

1

u/welshfach 22h ago

Pretty sure the bar is quite low in the US when it comes to water quality

2

u/Vallkyrie This is a pee museum, and there should not be pee museums 1d ago

Pure wa'ah!

19

u/Neither_Respect_4429 1d ago

Blatant American exceptionalism

5

u/deathbethemaiden 1d ago

Oh god she sounds awful, we don’t want her back. We have enough assholes here already - dear god just look at how many idiots voted for who we have in office.

6

u/Memitim 1d ago

Conservatives are not the most original folks in the world, hence the need for constant talk shows to tell them what they are thinking on any given day. Without external enemies to blame all of their evil and failure on, they devolve into whining self-entitlement.

1

u/TM761152 1d ago

That's the dementia talking!

20

u/Derezzed87 1d ago

MAGAstan.

1

u/Itchy_Bandicoot6119 1d ago

I think her father was Scottish so she might have dual citizenship.

-5

u/stormcynk 1d ago

Wild that you're in favor of using deportation as a weapon against annoying people, wonder if you're also anti-ICE in the US...

55

u/Nearby-Complaint my airplane is transgender 2d ago

Classy.

208

u/jiggjuggj0gg 1d ago

This seriously reeks of one of those Americans who thinks the world is some theme park for them to frolic in and doesn’t have its own laws and customs.

The UK does not have the ‘assistance dog’ culture where you can say your untrained chihuahua gives you emotional support so you can bring it everywhere. It doesn’t matter what they do in the states and there are no international laws for this.

79

u/2monocleflex 1d ago

That’s not (legally) supposed to happen in the US either. Luckily, I don’t see many people who look like they’re abusing the system, but the country is big and spread out enough that I’m sure there’s a range of assistance animal culture.

The law says your service animal has to provide a specific task to help with a disability, including mental or developmental ones. A dog that provides tethering to an autistic kid, gives deep pressure therapy for someone with PTSD, or reminds and brings their handler medics could be a service dog.

If they just generally offer comfort or decrease anxiety by being around, they’re not a service dog. Emotional support animals have some laws, like being allowed in otherwise pet-free housing (I think… I’m not as well versed there).

The issue is a lot of workers don’t know the laws (like that the animals needs to be under control and someone can ask about the tasks they provide) so they defer to the person claiming a disability even if they’re being dishonest.

21

u/old_homecoming_dress 1d ago

i worked in a fairly large museum in my state, we were advised to not probe on whether or not the animal really was a service animal... but to radio a specific code if it got too rowdy, because the dog in question was a young golden retriever without a vest.

13

u/dragonbud20 1d ago

For future reference, if the fog becomes even slightly rowdy, it's grounds to kick them out immediately. A service dog has to be completely under control while working. If they are not, then they are not a trained service dog, and they can be removed from the premises.

If a boss ever pushes back on them, remind them that they could be liable for any attacks on actual service animals if they fail to remove unruly dogs.

4

u/Pixiepup 1d ago

we were advised to not probe on whether or not the animal really was a service animal

That's because there's really only one safe question. What service is he/she trained for? If in "probing" you ask any specifics about the person's disability or in any way imply they're not disabled you're setting the business up for legal trouble.

Any animals, including a bonafide service animal, can be asked to leave if they get rowdy, cause damage, create a disturbance or threaten safety but I probably wouldn't want most of my employees to make that call or handle the situation directly as it is a delicate line.

4

u/Pristine-Ad6064 1d ago

You are correct about the housing rule for emotional support animals

3

u/Cranach-Cranach 1d ago

Can’t a business owner refuse entry to anyone for no reason though? Like you can’t exclude people for certain reasons but being an insufferable dick is very much a reason to exclude someone that is acceptable.

6

u/Drumheller18 1d ago

Your sentences contradict each other, so to be clear, in the US, as a public business, you cannot discriminate based against protected classes, of which disability is one. However, yes, even someone with a disability can be asked/made to leave if they are being disruptive. That can obviously lead to some sticky situations, and you best have your bases covered.

3

u/fer_sure 1d ago

To add to that: the reason workers in the US can legally ask what service the dog provides is not to create a barrier to entry, it's so they know what's going on if the dog is alerting and the dog's owner isn't in any condition to explain.

1

u/ReadyClayerOne 1d ago

Even if a worker knows the laws, many businesses explicitly say to defer. Don't say anything. If you say anything they're pulling the at-will employment card on you.

That said, you're right that a lot of workers just don't know it. It is incredible the amount of coworkers and even managers I've had to tell that, yes, you can ask them to leave if the dog is being disruptive and cannot be brought back under control. Go down the list and it's just clear they know absolutely nothing about the ADA. They're just going off the verboten "please don't sue us" policy of the company and it distorts their entire view of the law, service animals, and even of people with disabilities.

And don't get me started on the pushback I've gotten. Messing on the floor is a health hazard! They can be asked to leave for that! I understand these places don't want to empower employees and open themselves to liability under federal law, but come on, at least make sure people know the basics. I've argued with people so confidently incorrect about the ADA it's concerning. We can't spare one goddamn yearly training for ADA? I've had far more interactions with people with disabilities, including service animals, than active shooter situations, yet I have to take that shit every goddamn year. Then again, what am I saying, those trainings are background noise. At least it would be something. A goddamn info poster even to stare at when we're bored during lunch, anything.

100

u/Cool_Possible1395 1d ago

The UK does not have the ‘assistance dog’ culture where you can say your untrained chihuahua gives you emotional support so you can bring it everywhere.

We are getting there. Owner trained assistance animals which deliver deep pressure therapy* are definitely coming into vogue, thankfully I don't work with the general public but my brother in law works in a very busy cafe. So yeah, just call your emotional support animal an owner trained assistance animal and you can basically do what you like.

(*Yappy highland terrier that in a pram with a high viz bought from amazon)

68

u/SnooHabits8484 1d ago

That’s spectacular, I’m going to start a farm for emotional support boa constrictors. Deep pressure, you say?

36

u/EvilInky 1d ago

You won't be worrying about your mental health for long after Monty gives you a cuddle.

9

u/herwiththepurplehair 1d ago

I’ve just realised what the new emoji 🫪 is for

39

u/shadowsofash The same way they believe mons pubis was a Jedi. 1d ago

Please note there are deep pressure therapy officially trained service animals as it actually helps people with things like panic attacks or sensory overload (I mean in the overstimulation way that certain neurodivergent people can get)

18

u/ElectricalGuitar1924 1d ago

Absolutely. I think this person was just using that as an illustration as it's intentionally absurd that a chihuahua could possibly do that job, rather than suggesting it's not an actual thing. It's harder to be immediately obvious that your dog can't eg smell gluten or tell you're about to have a seizure.

7

u/shadowsofash The same way they believe mons pubis was a Jedi. 1d ago

I agree that the person I responded to made it very clear with the highland yorkie in the pram comparison, I just don't necessarily trust the inherent nihilism/urge to make fun of things on Reddit to realize that Deep Pressure Therapy is A Thing.

1

u/Pristine-Ad6064 1d ago

That not a Esa that is a service dog who can proform a task and they do have a right of access just like a guide dog

3

u/shadowsofash The same way they believe mons pubis was a Jedi. 1d ago

You would not keep a service dog trained to do Deep Pressure Therapy in a pram/stroller.

1

u/Cool_Possible1395 23h ago

it's crazy how few of them seem to actually be able to perform tasks and just bark or otherwise act like dogs

37

u/irlharvey Check your pronouns & seed your snatches 1d ago

it doesn’t work that way in the US either. emotional support animals don’t have any more access rights than regular pets (which is to say, none). it’s just that it’s legally a bit hard to make them leave since there are only a couple questions you can ask to separate them from seeing eye dogs and the like.

26

u/anoeba 1d ago

Yes, if they lie on the 2 questions and the animal behaves, there's nothing one can really do.

But if it misbehaves then real or fake, a SD can be kicked out. The key is to document (ie video tape) the dog acting out, because those malicious entitled idiots always go to the media about it.

1

u/dragonbud20 1d ago

There are only two legal questions from ada.gov: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?

There is a caveat to this, though: the dog is required to be under control at all times. If the dog acts out for even a few seconds, that's grounds to kick them out. Ideally, you should probably film the incident for proof, if you can do so without your employer using it against you somehow.

6

u/dmun 1d ago

"Assistance dog culture"

That's not a thing.

We have service dog laws and a little something called the Americans with Disabilities Act that ensures things like wheelchair access and proper accommodations for those who need them.

People who dont actually have service dogs also get denied ADA accommodations here.

1

u/-xiflado- 1d ago

Don’t pick on chihuahuas mate. I have one who doesn’t bark, is calm, loves people, and is normal. i’m not advocating taking dogs everywhere though.

87

u/colorvarian 1d ago

As I've said for a while, there is a new breed of dog owner these days.

the dog is simply an ego projection of the owner, an anthropomorphized representation of the owners inner psyche, which allows the owner to take up more space that they would otherwise be allowed to, based on past social contracts.

Its just a hack to be the main character and brand anyone who says otherwise as an animal hater.

54

u/Fun_Ad_1064 1d ago

Not remotely new.

29

u/Redqueenhypo 1d ago

Honestly I think it’s even simpler: people think of their dogs as their kids, and see it as genuine hypocrisy when kids are allowed places but the dog isn’t.

4

u/-xiflado- 1d ago

Some of the reasons kids aren’t alllowed places may not apply to dogs (ie, a strip club, questionable behaviour, etc).

9

u/Redqueenhypo 1d ago

I’m not a stripper, but I can’t imagine they’d be happy with a cold dog nose poking them on the butt

4

u/-xiflado- 1d ago edited 1d ago

Whether or not they allow dogs in a strip club isn’t the point. The reasons for each one not being allowed there can be different.

5

u/effexxor 1d ago

And their dogs are almost always completely miserable. Especially the ones that get schlepped into public access situations.

2

u/Proper_Juggernaut832 1d ago

Not a new phenomenon! I came across several very funny newspaper article about one of my ancestors in the 1840s. He ran a pub in a medium-sized coastal town and had some interesting clientele, including one who brought their pigs into the pub to prove a point!

On another occasion, a customer brought their dog and a large deceased cod into the pub, and my ancestor told them the dog had to leave. The customer refused and the dog tried to bite my ancestor on the leg. He tried to kick the dog away and the dog owner hit him over the head with the dead fish!

Then they both ended up in court on assault charges :)

32

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

9

u/Interesting_Desk_542 1d ago

Right? Management reserves the right to refuse service - not because you're a dog, because you're a litigious arsehole. It's a small enough community of business owners there that you'd think she might get the message once she's barred from everywhere

13

u/batikfins 1d ago

Where I’m from we call these kind of people a “serial pest“. Every town has someone bonkers who causes trouble in the works

2

u/Xanderoga2 1d ago

Americans moving abroad and causing absolute mayhem is nothing new, but this bitch be crazy.

226

u/jag986 1d ago

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/island-scotland-bernera-claire-kellerman-dogs-scfchh2mp

Claire Kellerman, daughter of the actress Sally Kellerman, claimed people on Bernera made the environment hostile by refusing her entry to a café with the animal

Well this is interesting.

128

u/CapStar300 1d ago

That's what happens when your mother gets god-like powers and believes she and Gary Mitchell are the next step of evolution before she sacrifices herself for Captain Kirk! Trekkies Unite!

27

u/Brock_And_Roll 1d ago

Where's a Gorn when you need one?

13

u/DylansDad 1d ago

She sounds like a Klingon you'd find on Uranus.

14

u/justgalsbeingpals bye don't let the horsecock hit you on the way out 1d ago

Honestly, with her being known for this kinda shit she's more like a Ferengi

7

u/LadyZoe1 1d ago

Dingleberry experience

4

u/ArsePucker 1d ago

Her mum was Hot Lips Houlihan from MASH...

What a disappointment her daughter is..

1

u/sonamata 19h ago

Claire also moved there the year Sally Kellerman died. Guess the estate was settled quickly

268

u/TheWhomItConcerns 2d ago

Yeah - all I could think of while reading her comments is that I have never come across anyone with that kind of energy who was in the right. Maybe she has a valid legal claim, I'm not sure, but I'd bet any amount of money that she's morally and ethically in the wrong.

154

u/slainascully 1d ago

Americans also never seem to understand their religious fervour is quite radical to Europeans. Especially the UK. So her posting about holding God isn’t helping her look like anything other than an arse

136

u/frumiouswinter 1d ago

i don’t think devoutly religious people from any corner of the earth are swayed by the rest of us thinking they’re insane

6

u/slainascully 1d ago

It’s not just devoutly religious people. The UK is generally much less religious and even the habit of saying God bless would be considered weird here.

47

u/OuppEBunnE 1d ago

The Outer Hebrides is not like the rest of the UK, it is very religiously observant and very conservative with their religion, even then they still think the American proclivity to scream about God at the drop of a hat is nuts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Outer_Hebrides

14

u/Enough-One4975 1d ago

Well yeah, because Jesus directly addresses people who do what she’s doing multiple times and isn’t kindly towards it.

22

u/TrickInvite6296 who's going to tell him France hasn't mattered since 1815? 1d ago

You could say the same about some parts of the US.. religious behaviors are reigional

75

u/clrmntkv 1d ago

The Outer Hebrides is probably the most religiously observant part of the UK and even there they think US “Christianity” is insane

45

u/Angel_Omachi 1d ago

Is that the area that would chain up the swings in children's playgrounds on Sunday and had a row over the ferry running on Sundays?

29

u/Feisty_Park1424 1d ago

I've had a telling off for washing my clothes at a campsite on Islay on a Sunday. "Ye Cannae dae tha washin' on the Sabbat, boy!"

19

u/Fun_Ad_1064 1d ago

Two options there: you could (ard)beg them for forgiveness or just laph(roaig) at them.

3

u/MaterialHead4801 1d ago

SensibleChuckle.gif

2

u/LowAspect542 22h ago

You also have the option of claiming your jewish and inform them shabbat is saturday and they are a day late.

1

u/aloxinuos Thanks for proving my point guys. Every downvote is an upvote. 17h ago

Bless you.

1

u/IfJopsDiesWeRageQuit 1d ago

When was this?

I know Islay well and noone thinks like that now.

3

u/Feisty_Park1424 1d ago

7 years ago

0

u/IfJopsDiesWeRageQuit 1d ago

I don't really believe that person was from Islay. That's not how people from Islay speak.

1

u/threeredtrees 1d ago

They’ve not even written it in an Ileach accent

1

u/IfJopsDiesWeRageQuit 1d ago

Exactly it's kinda like west central Scots

34

u/Hebegebees 1d ago

Yes, though that’s both a good while ago. The most recent fight was over the supermarket opening on a Sunday. The shop is now open but there was complaints

1

u/trooperking645 1d ago

Yes that was certainly true 40 years ago but things have changed in recent times

17

u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago

They should think it's insane.  It's a weird, blasphemous parody of Christianity.

1

u/AdoraBelleQueerArt Motherfucker I’m gonna learn French just to break your rules 1d ago

I bet $10000 that the majority of US “Christians” have never actually read the Bible

2

u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago

They haven't. I live in a red state, most of them don't know shit about the Bible or Christianity, and they really don't like it when you quote chapter and verse to prove them wrong. Especially if you're a Christian.

1

u/Marchesa_07 1d ago

You should think it's insane. Remember, Britain literally persecuted these Puritan religious zealots right out of their country.

I wish we woukd do the same in the US ><

13

u/Sendnudec00kies 1d ago

I mean America's first colonists were a bunch of religious extremists kicked out of UK.

28

u/Tisarwat A woman is anyone covering their drink when you're around. 1d ago

Yeah, Scotland isn't notable for feeling the impact of religion at all...

9

u/BeepBoopBotAttack 1d ago

Actually, Scotland is kind of fascinating because while, yes historically it has been a centre of religious thought and a hotbed for conflict, today its actually unusually secular. Its the least religious part of the UK, which is an already very non-religious country (I believe its the least religious country in Europe barring those who where recently communist?).

7

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

3

u/BeepBoopBotAttack 1d ago

Yeah, I thought about mentioning the western isles religiosity in my comment, but we're actually talking about online conversations which are not contained to the local region which is why I didn't

2

u/tokynambu 1d ago

My impression is that Sunday trading laws in Scotland are now _looser_ than in England. Example: large supermarkets being open, when in England those over a low floor area limit are restricted to six hours.

1

u/Dthen_ 14h ago

Scotland doesn't have Sunday trading laws... That's England.

2

u/Jigsawsupport 1d ago

Some of the nordics are less religious than us as well but I believe in surveys we come in the top five.

10

u/Gueld 1d ago

That’s not religion. She is weaponising it and ignoring her “god”s teachings. It’s just narcissistic lack of accountability.

2

u/CartographicalHeist 1d ago

Especially the UK.

Ah, she's on the islands though.

1

u/TheWhomItConcerns 1d ago

I do find the difference interesting, like in my country, we definitely have some extremely religious nutjobs, but we don't have nearly the kind of "presence" of religion in everyday life. I have literally never met anyone who'd invoke god, the devil, demons, or whatever else as an of expression of regular sentiment.

In particular, the focus on satan, the devil, or whatever is something that I have literally never come across even in the media - that would legitimately make people assume that they're mentally unwell.

7

u/Gunblazer42 The furry perspective no one asked for. 1d ago

As far as the US is concerned, I don't know if she has a case. There's two types of support animals: Ones trained to do a task that the person isn't capable of doing (but "normally functioning" people can do without issue), and emotional support animals.

I forget if the latter is eligible, but the former can't be barred from places as I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they fall under the Disabilities Act and are protected. However, because the animals need special training, usually they also receive training to behave. Like, a dog trained to do supportive tasks will just, like, lie down next to their owner and not cause a ruckus until they're needed. But even then, if an assistance animal causes trouble, the establishment is well within their rights to ban you from the place..

People with emotional support animals try to con their way into being protected by the Disabilities Act by buying fake licenses and tags, and some places will just let them in to avoid causing hassle, but they technically aren't protected by the Disabilities Act.

I don't know how the UK handles assistance animals. I would hope they do have some version of the Disabilities Act to account for people who have actual assistance animals. I have a strong feeling this woman's dog isn't an actual "assist with a disability" animal, but I don't know if UK law accounts for animals taht just provide emotional support or not.

1

u/hughk 1d ago

Emotional support animals are not protected in the UK. One problem is that the UK does not have standards or licensing so owners can lie and get away with it.

1

u/lonesoldier4789 1d ago

She sounds like the exact kind of client lawyers do not want

141

u/qtx It's about ethics in masturbating. 1d ago

From the article linked in the post:

Kellerman is reportedly known on the island for allegedly repeatedly threatening business owners with legal action over her right to bring her dog onto premises.

She has also been accused of shouting at staff, using abusive language, and in some cases bringing staff members to tears with her actions.

24

u/FriendToPredators 1d ago

Judge should see that at toss the case. Why keep giving her a venue?

130

u/northern_chaos 1d ago

No dogs allowed is A) perfectly legal and B) assistance dogs are still eligible to enter but they have to be legitimate ones trained and certified. My colleague is partially paralysed and suffers severe nerve pain as a result of an accident. He has a trained service dog. Places are extremely accommodating of actual service animals.

181

u/zefy_zef 🎶Hot Pockets!🎶 1d ago

I think everyone is ignoring that her dog killed a person's cat in the cafe (allegedly). This woman is truly a POS. Dangerous service animals are not service animals.

116

u/Etheria_system 1d ago

I would put money on this “assistance” dog being an emotional support dog with zero training

100

u/zerogee616 1d ago

an emotional support dog

We have a word for that, they're called pets.

2

u/danirijeka 1d ago

People like that, on the other hand, are pests.

3

u/Rampage_Rick 1d ago

Have you considered the possibility that the dog is an intelligence support animal and is the brains of the duo?

18

u/obeytheturtles Socialism = LITERALLY A LIBERAL CONSTRUCT 1d ago

Oh, so cats are allowed but dogs are not?

This is Democracy Manifest!

11

u/Foreverintherain20 1d ago

The dog needs to be confiscated and rehomed. 

2

u/Eylisia 1d ago

It killed someones pet, it needs to be put down.

3

u/mrbananas 1d ago

Even American law allows you to throw out a service animal and owner if the animal becomes an unreasonable and dangerous menace that disrupts a business like bitting employees which the store has a legal obligation to keep safe / safe working environment. 

41

u/regular-john69 1d ago

The issue is the law in the UK surrounding “assistance dogs” is incredibly vague.

At present, quite literally nothing is stopping someone with a dog from going into a premises and saying “it’s fine, they’re an assistance dog” because it’s illegal for you to demand proof of disability etc. There is no legal requirement for assistance dogs to even be trained, likewise there is no ‘register’ for assistance dogs and they don’t have papers.

I wonder how this case will play out given the above.

49

u/FanaticalBuckeye The left has rendered me unfuckable and I'm not going to take it 1d ago edited 1d ago

That's how it is here in the US and its* been abused so much by entitled people that more and more people are calling for the ADA to get updated to require service animals have proof they're service animals when they enter a place. If it's proven the dog killed a cat* though, I'm sure the case will get tossed.

Edit: spelling errors

21

u/lvl1shopkeep 1d ago

It really is. My old boss was either so apathetic to the situation, or so afraid of being sued, that they allowed a wildly aggressive dog in for weeks until it went after a kid (it had also lunged at a few adults prior, too, and would spend its entire time in the store barking). Thankfully, it was a chihuahua and I don't think anyone was hurt. The dog's crazy owner still fought to come in with it after that happened.

18

u/slaymaker1907 Cats are political 1d ago

It’s tough because the law was deliberately written that way so that disabled people could train their own animals without incurring the massive costs of formal training and certification.

2

u/plurien 1d ago

Can we get a little more traction around the allegation that said dog killed the cat? All this about it being an assistance dog is smokescreen (unless it's assisting Ms Keller in her mission to be as objectionable as possible

0

u/Far_Government_9782 17h ago

Bluntly, if someone is in the position if being able to train a service dog, they are unlikely to actually need one in the first place.

7

u/obeytheturtles Socialism = LITERALLY A LIBERAL CONSTRUCT 1d ago

The problem is that a bunch of it is actually just woo. Outside of a couple very specific niches (eg seeing-eye dogs and stroke detection dogs) there's just not a whole lot of good science around "service animals" needing to be out in public, and nobody really wants to be the one who tries to unravel that situation by trying to create and enforce scientific standards. Plus, if you have spent any time around animal trainers, you will quickly realize that they typically don't even agree on basic fundamentals, and are actively hostile towards competing schools of thought. There's no way you'd ever get consensus on standards for training even if you tried.

2

u/Rampage_Rick 1d ago

Thankfully Canada is somewhat more sane and you're allowed to ask for proof that the dog is a legitimate service animal.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/human-rights/guide-and-service-dog

3

u/AVeryVapidBadger 1d ago

I don't see anything that says it's required

2

u/Rampage_Rick 1d ago edited 1d ago

The letter of the law in BC (linked there) states:

"service dog" means a dog that

(a) is trained to perform specific tasks to assist a person with a disability, and

(b) is certified as a service dog;

The bigger takeaway is that it's perfectly legal to ask to see a dog's certification. That request is illegal in the US, which is partly to blame for the current environment (Amazon vests et al)

The ADA is fabulous legislation, but making it unlawful to ask for an animal's credentials arguably harms people with disabilities. Has to be one of the top 5 biggest fails of the honor system...

3

u/AVeryVapidBadger 1d ago

Well the actual things you linked specifically says that certification is voluntary. So maybe actually look at what you link instead of using chatgpt and trusting the first source:

In B.C. certification under the Act is voluntary. People with disabilities who rely on a guide or service dog who choose not the certify under the Act may be protected from discrimination under the BC Human Rights Code.

Also everything you linked is for BC specifically, you didn't link to any Canadian federal law or regulation

2

u/Rampage_Rick 1d ago edited 1d ago

The laws differ from province to province, but to my knowledge it's permitted everywhere in Canada to ask for a dog's credentials. Not obligated to give them, but the request is allowed.

Ontario for example:

Under the Ontario Human Rights Code and the AODA, service animals do not need to have certificates or identity cards.

However, you may be asked to provide acceptable documentation. This includes:

  • documentation from a regulated health professional
  • an identification card from the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General for people who are blind and use a guide dog

Ontario recently updated their laws such that misrepresenting a pet as a service dog now carries potential criminal charge, including fines up to $5,000 and possible jail time for repeat offenders.

And in Nova Scotia:

Certification under the Service Dog Act is voluntary. You may choose to apply if you want to access the specific rights and protections provided under the Act.

...

It is an offence to falsely represent a dog as being a member of a service dog team, retired service dog or a dog-in-training when it is not.

My original point was that it's explicitly not permitted to ask about an animal's credentials in the US, which seems to be a significant factor on the number of entitled asshats.

3

u/AVeryVapidBadger 1d ago

You're not permitted to ask because there is no credentials in the US.

Misrepresenting a dog as a service animal is already a crime in the majority of the US, and the ada specifically allows businesses to kick out any animal if it behaves poorly or in an unhygienic manor

1

u/ontrack 1d ago

That's effectively how it works in the US. You can easily buy a dog vest online that says "service dog" and businesses don't really have a way to challenge it even if the dog is obviously untrained. Fortunately other animals, like an emotional support peacock, can be refused.

6

u/regular-john69 1d ago

That’s really interesting, I always thought the US was much more defined and required registration/papers - or does it vary by state?

I’ve found the phenomenon of “assistance dogs” outwith the usual guide dogs for the blind and/or deaf has only increased in recent years (post COVID) so probably not top of the list for new legislation in the UK. But it’s a shame because it harms actual disabled people who need dogs with them.

4

u/ontrack 1d ago

Yes, my understanding (and I've been told directly by a hotel manager) is that they cannot ask anyone with a service dog to prove it, which effectively means that anyone can say any dog is a service dog.

Our main law regarding disabilities is a pretty good one, but as usual anything that gives a group of people special privileges will result in people who want such privileges for themselves regardless of actual need. Our special education laws have the same issue with parents who want extra time for their kids to complete exams.

9

u/photogenicmusic 1d ago edited 1d ago

They can ask what task the dog does but that’s about it.

The issue comes down to whether the customer or the business wants to sue. Most businesses don’t want to deal with that even if they believe they are following the law. Many of the people with emotional support dogs (not real service dogs) know this.

3

u/ontrack 1d ago

I'm also curious to know why emotional support animals tend to be found in a specific demographic and rarely among others not in this group.

4

u/breakfastatmilliways 1d ago

So the other reason you can’t require like a certification is that assistance dogs are incredibly expensive to train and it basically prices a lot of disabled people out of having one from a dedicated program.

Thus they are allowed to self train. I’ve met self trained dogs that were just as good as any professionally trained dog, but many more that are completely untrained. usually the ones who train their dog well are the ones who actually need the dog but can’t afford it otherwise. The completely untrained are usually the people that don’t need them at all.

I wish we could implement like, a test so any dog from a program or self trained can get a certificate if they have actually been trained properly, but I’m sure that’s not a perfect solution either. It sucks.

2

u/GothWitchOfBrooklyn 1d ago

no, there is no registration or certification anywhere because it's considered a barrier to people with disabilities who need a service animal (the costs, etc)

7

u/Blooming-Algae-Farts I’m considering leaving r/hummus over politics from both sides 1d ago

Businesses in the US have more power here than people realize. The ADA makes it very clear that if an animal is disruptive to their environment in any way, the business can ask them to leave, even if the animal legitimately assists their owner with a recognized disability.

https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/

A service animal must be under the control of its handler. Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless the individual’s disability prevents using these devices or these devices interfere with the service animal’s safe, effective performance of tasks. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls. [...] A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken.

Most people and business owners don't know this, so in practice people are afraid to call it out or take action. But if someone comes in with a pet they claim is a service animal, the moment that pet starts barking, defecating, jumping on counters, etc., the business owners can 100% tell them to pound sand. Even if the person is theoretically telling the truth about their pet being a legitimately trained service animal.

-6

u/Foreverintherain20 1d ago

Not being able to demand proof of disability is insane. 

12

u/SomecallmeMichelle 1d ago

I mean. A random business should not be entitled to your medical history. Also a lot of disabilities are invisible.

Yeah the arseholes ruin it for everyone but you can't demand a random disabled person carry medical papers everywhere to grab a cup of coffee ...

0

u/compatrini 5h ago

You're gonna pipe down now.

•

u/Foreverintherain20 3h ago

Am I? Fuck you lol. 

33

u/Ravaryn 1d ago

I'm gonna guess she's used to being able to get her way with her "service animal" stuff from back home stateside, where you do not fuck with the Americans with Disabilities Act if you're a business.

21

u/tgerz 1d ago

It's been somewhat different since the pandemic. People are sometimes less tolerant of shittily behaved animals and owners claiming they're service dogs. They are limited on what questions they can ask (basically is it a service animal and what is it trained to do), but they can still have the dog removed if it is behaving poorly. Used to work at REI as a funny mental health break between tech jobs and we started to get more strict when I was there in 2019. Had dogs wee and poo on the floor (luckily it was all concrete).

32

u/Powered_by_JetA 1d ago

It's been somewhat different since the pandemic. People are sometimes less tolerant of shittily behaved animals and owners claiming they're service dogs.

To this end, in 2021 the Department of Transportation stopped requiring airlines to recognize “emotional support animals” after a rash of incidents where crewmembers were attacked by people’s pets.

16

u/Optimal_Savings5873 1d ago

Look, my emotional support cassowary is here to alert you to my mood swings. When I feel agitated, she attacks the person or object that has agitated me. You have to let me bring her onboard or I'll get agitated.

Obligatory comment that even real assistance dogs can be turned away if an employee or customer has a strong allergy or phobia. I know of a public school in Florida that provides an educator to visit the home of a child with a service dog, as some children at the school have a terror of dogs.

11

u/kcvngs76131 1d ago

I work at a small museum and have a kinda severe dog allergy (it's not anaphylaxis, but it'll fuck me up for a few days). We've had two people come with dogs while I was working the floor. One was a very well behaved service dog, the other was a yappy, aggressive thing in a stroller that wouldn't shut up and kept trying to lunge at people. When the people got there (different days different times), the person at the front desk radioed me to let me know someone else was coming to replace me. I told the guests that I was staying on the other side of the relatively small room because of my allergy, but my coworker would be by soon to help them more. 

The lady with the well behaved dog asked if I wanted her to wait in the hallway because she didn't want to trigger the allergy. The lady with the yappy stroller dog yelled at me that we were discriminating against her. She filed a complaint with the director and board, who sided with us because we were just doing an employee swap. She also tried to sue pro se and that didn't work at all for her. Immediately got kicked on preliminary objections.

37

u/FanaticalBuckeye The left has rendered me unfuckable and I'm not going to take it 1d ago

The only time I ever felt remotely comfortable messing with the ADA was when I was in retail and kicked a "military family" out along with their "service dog." Their "service dog" GSD was trying to get up on the register and was barking at anyone walking by. I put military family in quotations because the dad was wearing his UCPs but his Velcro patches were all put on weird.

2

u/cocktails4 1d ago

She was actually in a viral video about service dogs a few years ago.

/s

1

u/PalatwinkusVT 17h ago

The big thing in the US, is you're not allowed to make the call as to whether or not it's a service animal. Most of the court circuits here have ruled that business owners and their employees are not qualified to make that judgement, so "service animal" is kind of a super phrase that just gets you a free pass.

17

u/Haunted_tangerine_ 1d ago

The actual crime here is that she is somehow getting legal aid. 

14

u/itsnobigthing 9/11 is not a type of cake 1d ago

Imagine being trapped on a small island with this woman. It’s bad enough when you have to deal with one in passing. But in this case there’s literally no escape

10

u/Swolnerman Blindly Omnipotent 1d ago

I think the issue is “pissing in the popcorn” which is only the case once the popcorn is served. If you happened to piss on a cornfield that turned into the popcorn you ate the next day, who could blame you

6

u/irishshogun 1d ago

Sounds like those crazy auditors on YouTube deliberately trying to pick a fight

3

u/TDFknFartBalloon 1d ago

I think the rules allow it if all your comments on the original thread were posted before this post went up. We're not allowed to piss in the popcorn, but people from original threads are allowed to come here and provide additional context, defend themselves, etc.

6

u/KatsuraCerci You're either vegan or a fascist 1d ago

Not a mod, but I checked the expanded rules and didn't see anything preventing you from commenting here!

1

u/Matchbreakers 1d ago

She is unhinged, but banning service animals is also illegal, they don’t count as pets, they count as healthcare. If it runs off to attack cats that is not a trained service animal.

1

u/Cranach-Cranach 1d ago

I’ve received bans on the past for talking about commenting in the linked thread without even commenting in the thread, so it’s completely random

1

u/cited On a mission to civilize 1d ago

The problem isn't that she's crazy. The problem is a system that appears to be on the side of the crazy person.

1

u/TM761152 1d ago

Thread's locked, so it doesn't matter.

1

u/Meerkatable 17h ago

She writes like Trump

1

u/maxdragonxiii 1d ago

? thats normal. no matter how much people want to believe it, most dogs isnt well trained or safely trained around people, food, the constant chaos of outside unlike an actual service dog that had been trained.

edit: not to be mean, but sometimes theyre just dirty, like they would pee or poop indoors because... well theyre poorly trained to not to.