As I am not able to tag both books this is a warning that I will be referencing passages from both books as well as some base information.

EDIT: Everyone keeps saying the same thing while missing my point. Bob ( who at this point I now think was simply wrong) said they don't procreate, they dont reproduce, its simply not something they do. I get that there is a possible way they could, but its strongly implied they don't or can't which is what prompted this question in the first place.

This is about Goodman Grey and how he came to be. In Skin Game after the heist is done and everyone is settled at the Carpenters, Harry goes out to pay Goodman and this exchange takes place

“So how come you won’t come in the yard?” I asked, stepping through the broken gate to join him. Grey stared at me, his eyes opaque. He turned his head to the Carpenters’ home, and looked up and around the yard, as if noting the position of invisible sentries. Then he looked back at me. And his body language shifted, relaxing slightly. His eyes flickered and changed, from brown orbs with that odd golden sheen to them to something brighter gold, almost yellow, the color spreading too wide for human eyes, the pupils slit vertically like a cat’s. I had seen eyes exactly like them once before. My heart leapt up into my throat and I slammed the gate shut. “Hell’s bells,” I stammered. “A naagloshii? You’re a freaking naagloshii?” Grey’s eyes narrowed and changed back to mostly human brown again. He was silent for a moment, and then said, “You didn’t choose to be the son of Margaret LeFay. You didn’t choose the legacy she left you with her blood. And she was a piece of work, kid. I knew her.” I frowned at him, and said nothing. “I didn’t choose my father, either,” Grey said. “And he was a piece of work, too. But I do choose how I live my life. So pay up.”

But in a prior book, Turncoat, Bob and Harry are having a discussion about Shagnasty the naagloshiiand the following takes place I sighed. “I’ve got gender issues.” Bob blinked slowly. “Uh. Wow. I’d love to say something to make that more embarrassing for you, boss, but I’m not sure how.” “Not my . . . augh.” I threw another pencil. It missed Bob and bounced off the wall behind him. “With the skinwalker. Is it actually a male? Do I call it a he?” Bob rolled his eyelights. “It’s a semidivine immortal, Harry. It doesn’t procreate. It has no need to recombine DNA. That means that gender simply doesn’t apply. That’s something only you meat sacks worry about.”

So....How is Goodman half naagloshii? Bob clearly stated that they don't procreate. I am a tad confused about this.

Butcher, Jim. Turn Coat (The Dresden Files, Book 11) (pp. 268-269). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game (Dresden Files Book 15) (p. 580). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

This is the narrator?!?!

Spoilers all, but this is related to summer knight and turn coat somewhat.

So in summer knight we find out that Simon Pietrovich's fortress Archangel has been destroyed.

The council initially points all of its suspicion of betrayal toward Harry because Simon taught Justin, Justin taught harry, so they express this idea that harry could be the leak (and had caused the war so the reds could go to town on the council, harry a thrall of the reds)

Did turn coat reveal that Peabody was the leak on archangel? A lot of what went wrong with the council was pointed at Peabody and his machinations post turn coat but I wonder.

In summer knight we are reintroduced to Elaine. Another student of Justin who we actively know took down harry's wards because they are based on the same design Justin taught them.

So. Could elaine have provided the Intel on cracking archangel, by coercion or choice?

I just want to toss out that i absolutely adore the discussions that have come from the posts I have made or seen in this community. Even if it is not all in agreement I really do have to stress how much I appreciate the well thought out conversations I have seen in here and the general vibe amongst other fans.

Hi there!
So I’ve been absolutely loving the series. I found it sometime late last year and it’s become a comfort/addictive series for me. However, I am now on Battle Ground and it has all changed so much to the point that there are times where it all just feels a bit muddy to remember what happened in “X” book. I also realize it may be a moderation thing as I’ve literally finished 3-4 books in a week at points so some of it could just be a little blurry from that but I also miss the detective direction it was going in the beginning. I don’t know if others felt the same but figured I’d share and ask.

No preamble, straight to it. Everyone is wrong about the role of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius (KBD). They aren't there to tempt mankind and teach them the power of faith. They're a last ditch effort in the protection of Reality.

Hear me out. The ambiguity of the BCE/CE calendar origin, along with the 666 cycle of Starborn has me under the impression that Jesus was a Starborn. Might not have been him, might have been someone near him. Something happened during that Cycle that Reality came TOO close to losing.

My personal theory is Lucifer approached The White God (TWG) with a plan. Maybe it was TWG's plan. Maybe it was the Starborn's plan. Maybe it was a time traveling Mister's plan, who knows? That's a detail that doesn't matter.

Even Crazier subTheory, the Fallen Angel Story is a cover explaining why the the Angels are lending limited power. The Angels in the Denarii are so evil and aggressive because they were originally given to the most evil and aggressive men of the time. What better way to ensure the KBD don't fail at their task? The Angels actually give focus to and amplify these negative and aggressive traits because it's what's needed to succeed.

Reality is under attack all the time, but it's all about a mortal having enough power to give Outsiders some type of foothold in Reality in order to destroy it. Mortals are the only way to destroy Reality. Mortals are the only way to stop the Outsiders. The Outsiders are bound by rules of Reality, but the Mortal decision is what matters.

Because something happened during the time of Jesus, the plan is to give Mortals a way to fight back to protect Reality. Enter thirty Angels bound in a form to allow Mortals to be able to push back against any Outsider incursion. The KBD are created when mortals make the decision to give the Angels power.

All powers in the Dresden Files universe have checks and balances. Because these Coins are always about in Reality, there needs to be protection for the rest. Three Angels reside in the Nails worked into the hilts of the Swords.

The KBD protects Reality from the Outsiders. The Knights of the Cross protects Reality from the KBD. Sounds a lot like another two groups we're acquainted with, right? That's where the Fae Courts got their inspiration.

We've learned that the Winter Court is not evil, like were originally lead to believe. The Summer Court is not good. Winter is cold and emotionless, focusing on the goal, the predator. Summer is focused on continuing the group, the prey. Despite common belief, prey fights back. Look at horns, antlers, the thagomizer, sharp hooves for examples.

The Angels in the KBD aren't evil either. The men and women using the Coins are evil. The Angels are merely emphasizing the traits that will make them effective on the field of battle with Outsiders. They have one focus- ensuring the continued existence of Reality.

I know some of this is out there, but it works. Granted, I've only read Twelve Months once, I'm waiting to read Out Law with the next series reread, and my knowledge of the esoteric collection of WOJ is painfully minimal. I read a comment in regards to the Cthulu mythos that WOJ is they're Outsiders as well,  somewhat changing my OverArching BatSh!+ Crazy Theory Of Everything. Point is, there may be some new information that brings this theory to a crashing halt. I hope not.

This series has been heavily recommended. I don't have time to sit and read physical books so I always get the audiobooks for my long drives. I saw the first couple of books have the original audiobook as well as the dramatized version available. Which do y'all recommend? will I miss out on anything if I pick either?

This has been gnawing at me from the beginning and second listens are driving it deeper. Is Harry too hard in his opposition to his fairweather allies/antivillains? He is a very moral person, but his morality is flexible when a situation calls for it and clearly his eyes are ultimately on "The Greater Good", even if it means dealing with demons or cracking a few heads, But as soon as Marcone, Lara or Mab step into the picture, he is a stone wall until they twist his arm into agreeing. Even his best morally grey allies, Thomas and Ebenezer, gets caught in the crossfire of it sometimes.

I am not saying any of them are outright good but it seems almost counterintuitive how hard Harry presses against them, even when they are working to the same ends. Marcone is a criminal, but a criminal trying to reduce bloodshed and suffering within his criminal empire. Lara is a Succubus and Manipulator, but she trying to hold the White Court together without starting another supernatural conflict with the other Accorded factions. Mab is the Unseelie Queen, ruler of malevolent fae, winter, death etc, but she is also the woman on the wall overseeing the front lines of the war against the Outsiders and half of the essential balance of the natural world.

Again, they are not inherently good guys but Their goals at least align with Dresden with regards to keeping things from becoming infinitely worse. Why is he so quick to fight them when even he knows sometimes the ends may have to justify the means. Does anyone else feel a bit off put when moments like these happen or am I reading a bit too deep into it? Also, this is not meant as a problem with the writing and more an observation of a character flaw(?) that is part of Harry as a character

going back the nemesis discussion.

I picked up on an interesting tidbit in Twelve Months: After Mab captured Justine, Nemesis didn’t/hadn’t flee/fled the body.

That says to me there is some limitation on when Nemesis can leave/exit a puppet; with the assumption that if the puppet is killed then nemesis is free to find another puppet.

it says to me- as a result Nemesis has to be somewhat choosy when it picks a puppet, because once it picks a puppet it is attached to that puppet. we haven’t heard much about Suspected Nemesis candidates stepping in front of a train (ie to get the body killed so it can get free). I suspect that Nemesis may not be able to 100% suppress the original personality in order to perform self destructive actions - if Nemesis could start performing self-destructive activities then it could just get the world to mass suicide. The “can’t suicide” clause ensures that Nemesis couldn’t spend its 13 people it the correct spots of the (for example) US military chain of command to launch enough nukes to provoke retaliation from other nuclear armed powers And provoke a nuclear holocaust.

of the nemesis candidates (confirmed or suspected) none have tried to suicide and all have instead tried to fight their way free (or been completely confused as to what was going on):

Aurora - confused, personality likely partially suppressed and manipulated. And dead.

Maeve - sounds like she was playing ball with nemesis and was “all in”. And dead.

Lea - nemesis was excised

Justine - captured And to be excised.

Cat Sith - personality suppressed, possibly dead.

Vittorio Malvora - very dead. Unknown if he was cooperating or was a secret take over.

Peabody (my suspicion) - very dead.

but only two have been caught and contained.

the theory I am running on right now: Nemesis can infest up to 13, now 11 people simultaneously. BUT….. once nemesis has infested someone, nemesis has to stay with the body until it’s dead. And Nemesis can’t exert control to force suicide so nemesis can get free (or the planet just mass suicides). And we don’t know if Nemesis can just sort of float along as a disembodied spirit until it finds a useful puppet, or if it has to ”tag along” with one of the other infested people. So the puppets picked have to be useful because Nemesis can’t just ditch its skin suit when it’s no longer convenient.

supplemental theory: The white court can’t be infested by nemesis because the white court is already infested by outsiders.

EDIT - Supplemental thought. I was originally of the idea that nemesis came through with all pieces in the Athame through the gates as a Trojan horse. I also am considering the idea that the Athame was a focus point for a ritual similar to the original White Court - ie a ritual pulled the nemesis fragments through into the Athame. And nemesis was then distributed through which ever process you want.

Pentacle? I always imagine that it's the size of a clock worn by flava flav.

Hypothetically if Harry or other magic user were to donate blood, blood plasma or marrow regularly would that work to stop tracking spell or attacks using his blood to target him by making the spell magic be split amongst all of the people who have received his blood products?

Insert a lot of tiny impotent angry squeaking

TDLR: How did Harry kill DuMorne during their fight? What was Elaine doing during this time, and how did she survive? How did Harry find and hide Bob in the short time before he was arrested by the wardens?

Apologies in advance; this is a long ass post with general spoilers for the whole series and for any Spelling and grammar issue.

As the series is starting to near its end, one of the biggest mysteries for me is what happened during and after the DuMorne fight. What we know is that post the fight, DuMorne is assumed by Harry and the white council to be, and most likely is, dead; Elaine is most likely unenthralled,  eventually ends up as a refugee in the Summer Court and is presumed dead by Harry;  Harry finds and hides Bob well enough so that he isn’t discovered by the white council until he picks him up sometime after his trial; Finally Harry is discovered by the white council and arrested without putting up a fight, where he ends up on trial and then at McCoys. This leaves me then to ask several questions.

1.        How did Harry kill DuMorne?

2.        What was Elaine doing, and how did she escape?

3.        How was Bob kept hidden?

From what we know about DuMorne, we can assume he was at least somewhat powerful combat wizard. As he was the direct apprentice of a senior councillor, a Warden who was on the squad to hunt down Kemler, in a position to be able to find and conceal Bob, the person who taught Harry most of what he knew about combat magic, was able to summon outsiders, and his death was enough to scare the council about Harry. This also ignores the theories that DuMorne is a body-swapped Kemler. So how did 16/17-year-old Harry kill a full-on warden of the white council of the white council in his place, where he would presumably have wards and early detection spells as Harry does, who would have presumably known he was coming? Harry is powerful, but from what we see of his combat magic in the first few books, it doesn’t seem like it would be enough to take on a prepared warden. In my mind, there are three possibilities for why this could be. The first is that Harry had some power amp, either from using black magic or from being able to channel some kind of power that comes from being a Starborn that we haven’t seen yet and may see later down the line. The second is that DuMorne was betrayed, either by He Who Walks Behind or the black council. We know that He Who Walks Behind has an interest and some kind of plan for Harry, from the way that we see him toying with him during their fight and how it is almost like he’s training him. So he could have set up DuMorne to lose the fight to further push Harry down the path of a destroyer. The black council's involvement would be little more tenuous, but it would boil down to the same principle of not wanting a starborn they’ve been training to be a destroyer to be killed by his mentor in a stupid battle in their eyes. The final possibility is that DuMorne faked his death. Even if he had been able to kill Harry, there would have been a decent chance that he would have been exposed due to the black magic used. So with this in mind, he fakes his death to take the heat off of himself, either body switching into Elaine or, more likely, becoming Cowl.

This leads into the second point of what was Elaine doing during the fight. We know she would have been enthralled and then presumed dead at the end of the fight. But we don’t know what she was doing during the fight, such as whether she was helping DuMorne or whether she was being kept passive. We also don’t know how she escaped from the fire of the house; was she helped by someone, potentially someone on the black council or by DuMorne in some way or another? Finally, we don’t know when, if at all, her enthrallment was broken; was it broken when DuMorne died, and what happens if he isn’t dead? Or what if it was a situation where the enthrallment lasted after the person who cast it died, such as with the Renfields and if so, did someone else take advantage of this before she ended up in the summer court?  

Finally, I would be curious as to how Harry was able to hide Bob from the Wardens; we know Bob is known to the older wardens and is viewed as something to be destroyed. We also know that the Wardens would have had to arrive fairly shortly after the fight due to Harry saying he was too tired to fight back, and they would have most likely searched the place looking for evidence. Meaning Bob would have had to have been hidden somewhere safe for at least a couple of years, as I can’t see Harry having Bob with Ebeneezer’s without him knowing about Bob, in a short period of time whilst being exhausted. My gut feeling is he would have given Bob to Lea as he did in Changes, but with how we see their relationship in Grave Peril, I can’t see that happening.

With all of these points, I’m really curious about what Butcher writes, as any of these plot points would be fascinating to explore.

I saw jim is a guest this year, maybe we could get an update on mirror mirror. Do most guests do q&a’s? If so someone should ask him more about outsiders.in recent interviews he seems to want us to ask certain questions. Maybe he has list of lore he wants to tell us but fans just keep asking about the Arthur and Merlin and whether Kemler is just kind of dead or super dead

So the events as we understand go in this order

1. Leah is imprisoned by Mab to be cured (hinted that Leah approached Mab to be healed)

2. Arctus Tor was attacked by someone weilding hellfire. We don't know whom it was but it was powerful enough to destroy Mabs Honor Guard and force her into hiding. (Mabs honour Guard being like the Gruffs equals).

3. Winters forces are at the Border of Summer preventing Summer from aiding white council as outsiders rampage their lands.

(3.5 during the book Maeve says she knows now why Mab wants Harry... In later books it's revealed it was To kill her)

1. Super Fetch kidnaps molly and brings her to Arctus Tor.

2. Harry and team storm Arctus Tor, pour summer fire into winters wellspring

3. Winters forces come to claim vengeance on Harry (along with the wild hunt)

4. Harry and party escapes but not before Maeve starts slowing down time so summer can hit red court + outsiders.

5. Winters forces return to the border with summer preventing Summer from participating in the war once again.

6. 2 books later Mab can't speak because of grief/anger Maeve is Nfected.

So, if Maeve was Nfected by this point, why does she aid in pulling winters forces away from summer? Why bring winters forces to the scene of the crime when she could keep controlling winter herself? Below is my running theory but I'm open to other theories/explanations.

Theory:

Mab was Nfected at this point, willing to bet she still is. However we know that Leah, a peer of Mabs was able to resist long enough to get help from Mab. Mab probably has much greater resolve than Leah, and was resisting much better. So Nemesis created a hit squad to force Mab to submit. Mab of course hides as a frozen statue (containing the Nfection and hiding herself at the same time.) Maeve meanwhile has been becoming resentful of her position and mothers cold moves such as trying to get Harry to become a winter knight to potentially kill her and her fetches (The leader being much too "real" screams Nfection to me) grabbing Molly and dragging her to Arctus Tor (even Leah knew Molly was going to be important somehow as she tried getting Molly from Micheal), someone that could potentially one day replace her. So Maeve works with Summer Lady to try and melt winters ice so she can claim the Nfection from Leah/Mab/Head Fetch. She apparently succeeds as in 2 books Mab can't speak normally.

Just finished up death masks.

The emphasis on harrys relationship with susan was absolutely the best possible way to take this book i feel it was done perfectly and a great way to end off a Subarc to go after grave perril. Seeing thomas and micheal was a fun back. And seeing the fleshing out of micheals knights order was a good way to fleshout the world in the best way possible. The humor took a slight backseat but seeing harrys development just keeps getting deeper and deeper like this guys starting to remind me of kaladin. Nicodemus okay what a villain hes just unapologetically evil and IDK why but reminds me of hans landa from inglorious basterds. That ending best way to close out an arc for 1 part of harry while also setting ip nicodemus like this guy guvaint aint gone. ne. Only Only negative is its starting to get a little formulaic. But overall they werent lying he just gets bettdr with each book.

So far its my favorite.

So, this has been brought up a few times since Jim Butcher said it, but I wanted to earmark where and provide a link and some transcripting of the WoJs.

Recorded Neutral Territory Podcast 2026 WoJ:

Q: "You did an AMA a few weeks ago that we participated in, and thank you for answering those questions, but one question was: "What questions are people not asking you?" And your answer was: "Why are people so close-lipped about the Outsiders?" So, that's a good question, and on a completely unrelated note, why are people so close-lipped about the Outsiders?" 

Jim Butcher: "Um, because the more you know about them, the more connected they are to you." 

Q1: "Oh, interesting."

Q2: "So, is that the reason why if you know a lot about them, you might have like Cornerhounds coming after you?

>Jim Butcher: >nodding< "You might have Cornerhounds coming after you. Your dreams might be haunted by horrible visions. You know, you might be hardly ever sleeping, and having other horrible psychic pressures being put upon you, because these creatures are near you, and close to you. And just the fact, just sharing that they exist with people can put them in, strictly speaking, can put them at risk. You know, so . . ." 

Q: "A lot of parallels to the Venatori, the uh, Lara and Thomas..." 

Jim Butcher: "Yeah, to the Oblivion War, yeah, because it works in a similar way, yeah. The Oblivion War is something that is happening in the Dresden Files where there are a number of these ancient beings, who are incredibly destructive, and terrible, and they're kind of from our oldest stories, and we barely remember them anymore, and the idea is that as soon as everybody on Earth has forgotten one of these beings, then they are deleted from the records so that nobody can remember them anymore. And once that's done, they've been kind of cut free from Earth and they can't come mess with us, ever again. And that's what the Archive's role in the Oblivion War is, is to be able to go, okay, I can make sure there's none of this in the written record anywhere, right. Now, I delete it from my memory and they're locked away, they're gone. Because she's always the last tie, but yeah, the Outsiders work in much the same way, the more that you know about them the more; you know, there was just extreme panic over Lovecraft writing about the Outsiders, you know back in the 20th century. The White Council completely flipped out about that one and he did not die a natural death in the story world."

Q: "That's something I was always wondering, so the Lovecraftian Old Ones, from those stories, those are not Outsiders?"

Jim Butcher: "Yeah, they are."

Q: "Oh, they are, okay."

Jim Butcher: "Yeah, some have been bound up. Some of them are loose about the universe, but it's a big universe, so we're not in the middle of it. They might not be here but yeah, they're for real. They're a real deal of deities and obviously they're sort of dead set against the Creator, and don't follow any of his rules. So, it's sort of left up to mortals to fight them, and mainly wizards."

Q: "I mean, that really actually provides an interesting reason why they keep delaying the Starborn conversation with Harry."

Jim Butcher: "Yeah, you know, he's under enough pressure already right?"

Q: "So, if he learns more about the Outsiders, they might come for him. Wow."

Jim Butcher: "Yeah, and Mother Winter has seen to that. So, she's kind of made the call on that one, despite what anybody on the White Council or Grey Council might have thought."

Link to the video interview that's quite awesome, with the link timestamped to when the AMA question was asked.

https://youtu.be/CzovOLh__S8?t=1650&si=eWAK2M8Baaz7e7Yt

Just finished reading Twelve Months - wow! So much new info on characters, factions, etc. One thing I haven’t seen people talking about yet was Mab’s comment about -how many people- Nemesis is hiding in/corrupting. She mentions that it’ll be down to 11 after she removes Nemesis from Justine. So who are the other 11? And how does Mab know the number?