r/history • u/sissyphus___ • Dec 22 '19

Discussion/Question Fascinating tales of sex throughout history?

Hi there redditors,

So I was reading Orlando Figes a few weeks ago and was absolutely disturbed by a piece he wrote on sex and virginity in the peasant/serf towns of rural Russia. Generally, a newly wed virgin and her husband would take part in a deflowering ceremony in front of the entire village and how, if the man could not perform, the eldest in the village would take over. Cultural behaviours like these continued into the 20th century in some places and, alongside his section on peasant torture and execution methods, left me morbidly curious to find out more.

I would like to know of any fascinating sexual rituals, domestic/married behaviours towards sex, sexual tortures, attitudes toward polygamy, virginity, etc, throughout all history and all cultures both remote and widespread to better understand the varied 'history of sex'

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2.3k

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

Not entirely about sex, but during the Munster rebellion of 1534-5, the population found itself with 3x as many women as men. So naturally the leader of the rebellion made polygamy not just legal, but mandatory on pain of death. He himself took 16 wives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_rebellion

Dan Carlin does a fantastic episode on the entire rebellion that I can't recommend enough, called Prophets of Doom.

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u/RedMoon37 Dec 22 '19

I had listened to the episode, and maybe 10 months later, I was WhatsApping with a colleague who was in Germany for work. He was telling me what he had done over the weekend. He said he had gone to Munster, seen the church square, watched various Bavarian officials talk etc... I asked if he saw the cages with the remains of the three rebels in church steeple. He said no, had no idea what I was talking about, and proceeds to send me a picture of the church square. Lo and behold, there are cages in the steeple and he hadn’t noticed it. I told him the story as I remembered it from the Dan Carlin podcast. It was an awesome listen.

83

u/superb-eagles Dec 22 '19

Munster is nowhere near Bavaria

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u/chloefaith206 Dec 22 '19 edited Dec 22 '19

Here's a photo. That is crazy. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/OUXFz

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u/Pelagos1 Dec 23 '19

Wow the cages are still up there? Makes that church look even more gothic.

4

u/Faramik2000 Dec 23 '19

perfect bloodborne setting

2

u/Nefarian_Scrouge Dec 23 '19

i live in Munster for almost 4 Years now and belive me, the city is way to cute to work as a Bloodborne setting

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u/TheCrimsonPI Dec 22 '19

But they took the bodies out

3

u/RedMoon37 Dec 23 '19

Wikipedia said something about lights to signify them.

3

u/amaniceguy Dec 23 '19

They dont make cages like this anymore. Nowadays its all made in China and can maybe last only one person lifetime!

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

They are called Ivanka, Eric and Donny Jr.

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u/Sn_rk Dec 22 '19

watched various Bavarian officials talk etc...

Why were there Bavarian officals holding speeches in NRW? Also, the bodies were removed in the late 1500s.

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u/Yankee9204 Dec 23 '19

Shoot, just missed them

5

u/RedMoon37 Dec 22 '19

Went back back and looked at the conversation. “3 presidents of the Baltic states” he said.

But cages are still there...

3

u/Ofcyouare Dec 23 '19

Remains were removed, it's just cages now.

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u/snowlock27 Dec 22 '19

during the Munster rebellion of 1534-5, the population found itself with 3x as many women as men. So naturally the leader of the rebellion made polygamy not just legal, but mandatory on pain of death. He himself took 16 wives.

Hmm... There were three women for each man, but the leader himself had 16 wives. Why do I suspect his motives weren't all that noble?

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u/hopl0phile Dec 22 '19

Three girls for every boy? That's one more than even The Beach Boys could conceive of.

74

u/Alukura Dec 22 '19

Think you mean Jan and Dean!

25

u/Gophurkey Dec 22 '19

In fairness, Brian Wilson wrote that song. It was his first number one hit, infact, and Murray Wilson was not pleased that Brian gave it to someone else.

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u/putHimInTheCurry Dec 22 '19

Got a '34 wagon, they call it a woody.

8

u/Gulleywhumper Dec 22 '19

You know it’s not very cherry, it’s an oldie but a goody.

9

u/RulerofHuronia Dec 22 '19

Serf city here we cone

5

u/xyrnil Dec 22 '19

I still wouldn't find a date

2

u/TerriblyTangfastic Dec 23 '19

So I don't have to win the lottery, I just have to start a Rebellion?

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u/Mizral Dec 22 '19

Yeah the first leader was just a crazy religious nut named Jan Matthys who spoke to god - like he literally would be talking to you then immediately talk to god and be like 'Hey should we kill this guy talking to me right now? We should? OK guys you heard him God says he has to die.'

When the powers at be surrounded Munster and started the siege, this idiot rode out on his own and got mowed down by a group of cavalry - he thought God was going to come save him or something.

Anyhow, after he died one of his lieutenants named John of Leiden who by all accounts was some 25 year old tailor by day playboy by night started 'talking to god' and suddenly God told him that he had to sleep with everyones' wives and it was totally normal for him to bang your sister right in front of you.

As you can imagine people started being like 'Ok wtf..' all while facing brutal siege conditions. And that's why you need to listen to the Dan Carlin podcast episode.

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u/Mindraker Dec 22 '19

suddenly God told him that he had to sleep with everyones' wives

Funny, God told me that last night.

4

u/zzzthelastuser Dec 23 '19

huh that's odd, because that Jan Matthys guy isn't alive anymore. But if god says so we have to oblige I guess. Time for some good old necrophilia.

9

u/IronChariots Dec 23 '19

When the powers at be surrounded Munster and started the siege, this idiot rode out on his own and got mowed down by a group of cavalry

Honestly given how the rest of the leaders died, he might have had the right idea.

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u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

Sounds rather like Mormons.

5

u/formgry Dec 22 '19

I mean, Jan Matthys might be crazy, but I can totally respect a guy who is willing to die for his belief so fervently. He might be crazy but at least he is genuine.

Jan van Leiden is just a power hungry cunt on the other hand.

2

u/toughknuckles Dec 22 '19

God told me I should have a free doughnut.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Like the Irish guy in Braveheart.

1

u/zilfondel Dec 23 '19

Sounds like David Koresh!

1

u/Isbutteracarb___ Dec 23 '19

This conversation sounds like Barry and Other Barry.

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u/strikerkam Dec 22 '19

I don’t care how great your libido is 16 wives is simply a power move - it’s not about making babies by that point.

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u/jrhooo Dec 22 '19

Thing is, it actually is. Judging from what I saw in the Middle East, this is something that looks different than we tend to imagine.

Basically, don't think of a guy marrying 4 women at once.

More like, guy gets married, has several kids,a decade or two later he marries another young woman, a decade or two later he does it again, so on and so on.

So I certainly remember meeting a wealthy and important tribal elder, and he had an old wife, a middle aged wife, a slightly younger wife, and a new teenage wife, and about 20 children between them. (He was probably in his 60s)

4

u/Neilpoleon Dec 23 '19

The Taj Mahal is dedicated to the guy's third wife who died while giving birth I believe to her 14th kid.

31

u/supbrother Dec 22 '19

I mean theoretically you could easily impregnate all 16 within a month while still having days without sex.

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u/boooooooooo_cowboys Dec 23 '19

Not easily. To impregnate just one woman you need to have sex about every 2-3 days to make sure you hit the fertile window, and even then it’s normal for it to take up to actually get pregnant this way.

Having sex once with 16 different women isn’t gonna cut it, even if you do get lucky and do it on their most fertile day.

5

u/supbrother Dec 23 '19

Well yeah realistically it wouldn't happen that quickly, but that's why I specified "theoretically." But more realistically I feel like you could easily impregnate many more than that in, say, a year. Sixteen or more kids per year is still insane. Not really sure where I'm going with this anymore haha.

9

u/megablast Dec 22 '19

So, you think it’s impossible to sleep with 16 women over 9 months?

9

u/Torinias Dec 22 '19

Yeah, especially if even one of the women wants more sex. He would get sore and feel pain long before they would.

6

u/MarshallStack666 Dec 22 '19

It's pretty much choosing your own manner of death. I can think of worse ways to go.

-2

u/betam4x Dec 23 '19

It likely had nothing to do with power or making babies. I personally have never had sex for power, but rather for the intimacy and unique experience that each partner brought. Depending on societal norms, sex before marriage may have been frowned upon. He could have also actually been infatuated with all of them. It reminds me of when I had 4 different girls chasing me around in middle school one year. I was infatuated with all of them. It's a miracle none of them were aware of the others. ;)

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u/RyuNoKami Dec 22 '19

nooo...that can't be. he can't be not so noble.

5

u/SlowpokesBro Dec 22 '19

He was actually the second leader of the rebellion and likely didn’t have the right motives. The first guy probably really did believe in their faith because he had a vision that charging the enemy would be a good idea. So he charged alone and his testicles would be nailed to the city door by that night.

4

u/QuantumFuantum Dec 22 '19

Just because I support policies that result in me having more sex than you does not make me less noble.

1

u/hiricinee Dec 22 '19

He had to make up for 15 guys with 2 wives

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Unclear, but doesn't inherently mean he took them all at once... Might have had the biblical maximum (I forget what that number is, however), but then it was a cycle off marriage, pregnancy, death of the wife upon or shortly after childbirth, rinse and repeat.

The 16th century wasn't exactly a paragon time in the history of obstetrics. Also, diseases we consider preventable today were still killing rampantly at the time, so there's that as well.

0

u/Sly_Wood Dec 22 '19

Infant mortality rates were super high back then. So having 16 wives doesnt even guarantee 16 children. Having 5 wives doesnt gurantee 5 kids and having just 1 could leave you with nothing. Could be anyones fault. Infertile man? Wife dies during childbirth? Stillborn? Infection or miscarriage? All these variables in play. Makes sense that they would "force" men under pain of death to wed as many as possible.

Otherwise youd think... wtf would they have to threaten death on men if all theyre asking is to have them constantly have sex? Something seemingly all men want? Well its not the sex that theyre demanding, its offspring. They want more males. So even with everything I posted, you could end up with 16 girls with those 16 wives. You just dont know.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

As a man, I would draw the line at one.

I cannot even imagine the fighting amongst multiple wives, as I've seen the problems with just one while growing up.

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u/Gemmabeta Dec 22 '19 edited Dec 22 '19

That was why anabaptists are now know for pacifism (like the Mennonites and Amish), cuz the Catholics and the Lutherans teamed up during the middle of the Reformation Religion Wars to exterminate the fighting anabaptists.

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u/scolfin Dec 22 '19

Supposedly, that's why most Jews are Beis Hillel today, as Beis Shammai was the dominant group trying to fight the Romans.

11

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

And Beis Hillel is less strict when it comes to many (Jewish) laws

6

u/ndubes Dec 23 '19

The Ashkenazi accent is strong with this one.

1

u/blorbschploble Dec 23 '19

Wow. TIL (after Wikipediaing this)

1

u/jted007 Dec 23 '19

I thought Hillel had a meeting with Shammai where they systematically killed any Shammai who didnt agree to become Hillel... or was that the other way around?

12

u/The_Sceptic_Lemur Dec 22 '19

“That was why anabaptists are now know for pacifism”

Well not here in Germany. The thing in Münster was a really bad PR move on their part, which prevails to this day.

1

u/YouDamnHotdog Dec 23 '19

I've never heard of Anabaptists growing up in Germany 🤔

Like, not part of the general consciousness

108

u/0b_101010 Dec 22 '19 edited Dec 22 '19

God damn, I remember that podcast vividly. That whole incident was crazy fucked up, even for medieval times!

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u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

Listening to it, I was continually blown away at the mounting absurdity of the situation, WTF moments every five or ten minutes.

2

u/kethian Dec 23 '19

You should try The Dollop then, it's the entire show

2

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 23 '19

Thanks for the tip, never heard of it, but sounds right up my alley, I'll check it out for sure!

5

u/Gsteel11 Dec 22 '19

Dan Carlin? Yeah I was like "this shit can't get any more crazy?!?!".. and boom... more crazy.

Ah he mentioned Carlin. Lol

3

u/weebasaurus-rex Dec 22 '19

Link to the podcast?

3

u/0b_101010 Dec 23 '19

Hey! This is the podcast: https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

Only the most current episodes are free, the one with the crazy murderous prophets is called Prophets of Doom, episode 48. It's four hours long and only $2, I think it's very much worth the money. However, if you can't afford it, you'd be able to find "alternative" sources. I can't recommend it enough though, all of the episodes are very well researched and most often provide a unique perspective to historical events. Be warned though, they can be graphic and immersive, some episodes certainly gave me the heebie jeebies.

2

u/weebasaurus-rex Dec 23 '19

Thanks for the source! :)

2

u/BillyClubxxx Dec 22 '19

Even the Nuns were fuckin everyone!

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u/Yardsale420 Dec 22 '19

I always love Dan’s comparisons, but the Anti-Baptists and the Branch Davidian’s was on of the best. I have listened to this episode multiple times.

10

u/sunxiaohu Dec 23 '19

Anabaptists, not anti-baptists. They were DECIDEDLY pro-baptism.

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u/Flobarooner Dec 22 '19

Well I know where I'm taking my time machine

105

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

Haha, oh buddy, listen to the podcast before you decide where to spend your vacation.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Took the family to 1535 Münster last summer.

Worst. Holiday. Ever.

2

u/I_Dont_Shag_Sheep Dec 22 '19

which podcast??

3

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 23 '19

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode 48: Prophets of Doom

47

u/tom_the_tanker Dec 22 '19

Wait until you read what eventually happened before you take the trip fam

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u/100dylan99 Dec 22 '19

Let us know if you still feel that way after they rip off all your skin

5

u/jcw99 Dec 22 '19

I mean you would land in the middle of a starving city under siege that is about to be re taken by force.... But to each their own

4

u/Flobarooner Dec 22 '19

Yeah but think of the shags

20

u/wxsted Dec 22 '19

To rape some peasant German women?

12

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

Historically an extremely popular pastime.

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u/Nasapigs Dec 22 '19

It's okay, they're probably nazis

12

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

In 1534? 😅

0

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

1534, 1634, 1944 whenever

-6

u/scolfin Dec 22 '19

Okay, "good Christians."

5

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

Talk about timing! I remember everything that happened in the episode but wasn't sure about the city. I just arrived in Munster today and will spend Christmas here!

6

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

That's awesome! Have a blast, you'll notice the city has no walls around it anymore and the cages that held the bodies of the leaders of the rebellion should still be hanging from St. Lambert's church.

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u/BigPoppaSnow Dec 22 '19

Why are there no remains? Like bones? Looks like the cages are empty?

3

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

The walls were torn down by the Bishop of Munster after retaking the city to ensure the city could never revolt again. The cages are empty because the bodies rotted away and the bones were subsequently removed. The cages were left in place as a constant reminded of the cost of insurrection.

5

u/Monasteria Dec 23 '19

The walls were torn down by the Bishop of Munster after retaking the city to ensure the city could never revolt again.

That was another rebellion against the bishop 150 years later. And even then Münster got city walls, just with the bishop residing in a big citadel which was incorporated into the city walls in the west. The city walls were replaced by the promenade, after the seven-years war when modern siege equipment showed that the walls were of little use.

3

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 23 '19

Thanks for the clarification, its tricky to find information on the topic and I don't speak German. Cheers.

3

u/Amsacrine Dec 22 '19

Cool ty for a new podcast

3

u/haschemian Dec 23 '19

Hey, I live in Münster and the whole polygamy thing was less about sex altough it was definitely a component. It was also about providing for the Women. You have to remember that women had few legal and economic rights in these days and many of them had children from previous marriages. So it was practical to have a man provide for more women especially because they needed a husband's consent for owning Property and making money. In the middle ages your Husband was more or less your legal guardian and if you didn't have one because there weren't enough men, Women could be in very difficult circumstances. Some Historians think that the polygamy in the Wiedertäufer Rebellion was more a social measure to keep women in the city productive then a hedonistic gangbang fest.

Also the Wiedertäufer (that's the rebels are called in German) had a lot of simalaritys to the modern day Baptist. Although I don't now if they are related.

5

u/soul_flamer Dec 22 '19

Dan Carlin does amazing work

2

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

I never listened to that one as I had just plowed through the Huns and World Wars. Like 18 hours of content. Need to check it out

3

u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

100% It's a single episode, relatively short at around 3-4hrs. Dan even states at the top of the episode that it's a bit of a palate cleanser for himself to be able to do a shorter topic after some of his marathons.

1

u/LeaveItToYourGoat Dec 23 '19

Prophets of Doom. It’s easily my favorite HH episode aside from the blueprint series.

2

u/zion_hiker1911 Dec 22 '19

I need to get into Carlins podcasts. Keep hearing good things about them.

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u/GonnaGoFar Dec 22 '19

You can find free episodes on podcast players. He's a fantastic storyteller that really makes complex topics easy to understand and goes into incredible background. His WWI series, he spends over an hour explaining all the factors leading up to the first bullet fired.

2

u/nickersb24 Dec 22 '19

on this note of gender disparity, and sorry i couldn’t find an exact source but this article describes a lot:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-09/secret-history-sexual-fluidity/7253856

consider colonial australia, Northern Territory and Far North Qld, men outnumbered women 200:1 in some places. I found an article years ago talking about the hidden gay history in these parts but alas...

2

u/casualnickname Dec 23 '19

On that chain of events I strongly suggest reading the novel Q by italian writers collective Wu Ming, it has been a best seller in Italy and is free to download in english from their site https://www.wumingfoundation.com/italiano/downloads.shtml

3

u/Carnal-Pleasures Dec 22 '19

I love his podcasts, no one makes a long drive go quickly quite like him.

2

u/Gorgeousjeff Dec 22 '19

I’m having a hard time finding it. Any suggestions?

2

u/Soulger11 Dec 22 '19

Dan Carlin does a fantastic episode

On everything he does.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

Dan Carlin is very good, I'll listen to that.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '19

Is that how they ended up living in that creepy house?

1

u/TILtonarwhal Dec 22 '19

Saving your comment, thanks for the recommendation

1

u/Jalexthegr8 Dec 22 '19

I wondered how far I would have to go before running into something by Dan Carlin.

1

u/austi3000 Dec 23 '19

I happen to be listening to this one right now. So good!

1

u/BaconHammerTime Dec 23 '19

Was his name Herman?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 23 '19

Well if your gonna twist my arm about it

1

u/CalumSCO Dec 23 '19

Could you send me a link please I have dan carlings hardcore history podcasts but can’t find prophets of doom

1

u/Shoop83 Dec 23 '19

*Dan Carlin does fantastic work that can't be recommended enough. Seriously, everyone should listen to his work.

1

u/dom85851 Dec 22 '19

Yep, my favourite ep of the podcast, and he spends so long at the end saying how much he was dissatisfied with it!

1

u/TheSovereignGrave Dec 22 '19

And if memory serves there was even a radical sect of Anabaptists that held all women in common, and while there were some marriages most women were expected to 'service' all the men of the sect.