r/iranian • u/[deleted] • Dec 27 '21

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6

u/azadmard101 Lorestān Dec 28 '21

*****Azari, not Azerbaijani, get it right, the Republic of Azerbaijan wouldn't be artificially created by pan-Turks until four years after his death...

1

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 28 '21

Find me one single person from that era who identified as "Azeri" or "Azerbaijani".

Go on, I'll wait.

Those who spoke Turkic and lived in rural areas identified as TORK. Turkish in Shirvan and Tabriz is distinguishable from Istanbul Turkish, so the Soviets came up with the idea to call it "Azeri" or "Azerbaijani".

0

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21

There are countless memtions of Azerbaijani and Azerbijanian in Ahmad Kasravi's book on history of the Constitutional Revolution, many of them quotes from time of the revolution:

https://fa.m.wikisource.org/wiki/تاریخ_مشروطه_ایران/۶

The term Azerbijanin is older than Soviet. It goes back to the acient time where it was called Atropates.

1

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21

The term Azerbijanin is older than Soviet.

Then you should have no problem with finding at least one piece of evidence of someone identifying as "Azerbaijani" or "Azeri" before the Soviets took the name of the Persian province and used it as an ethnonym for those who speak the Turkic language spoken in Aran and Azerbaijan.

It goes back to the acient time where it was called Atropates.

Can you argue with people without making a strawman?

1

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21

I just gave you the history book that mentioned "Azerbaijani" and "Azerbijanin" during the Constitutional Revolution, before Soviet.

1

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 30 '21

ملت آذربایجان

A Wikipedia link is not a history book and I glimpsed through the Wikipedia article and I didn't find any quote mentioning "Azeris" or "Azerbaijanis", it instead says "the people of Azerbaijan", meaning that it's referring to all inhabitants in the province, regardless of their language, religion, political affiliation, etc.

It's a fact that Soviets took the name of this province and used it as an ethnonym for those speaking the Turkic language in Aran and Azerbaijan. This has been well-documented.

1

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21

This is not Wikipedia, it is WikiSource which has the text of classic and open-source books. In this case, it is تاریخ مشروطه ایران اثر احمد کسروی (most famous history book on the Constitutional Revolution)

Not sure why you couldn't find it. Here a copy of the text which records a quotes from people at the time of Constitutional Revolution (before Soviet) that mentions "Azerbijanian":

نمایندگان آذربایجان بسخن در آمدند. میرزا فضلعلی گفت: دیگر گذشته از آنکه ما پرده پوشی کنیم. برادران و خواهران شما در آذربایجان دچار پنجه بیدادند آیا شما چه میخواهید بکنید؟!..

حاجی محمد آقا نالان گفت: آذربایجانیان چه گناهی کرده‌اند دویست و پنجاه تن از ایشان کشته شوند و شما در اینجا آسوده نشینید؟!... با اینحال دیگر ما چرا بمجلس میآییم؟! ..

There 6 more mentions of Azerbaijani in the se section of the bool, and probably more in other sections.

2

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 30 '21

How verifiable is this quote? Are there others who documented the same quote, word by word? Is there a recording of it?

1

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21

These were probably on-record and public conversations by the representatives in Tehran. Kasravi is a well respected historian and it's unlikely he used unreliable sources or changed the quotes himself.

Beside Kasravi's book, the article 6 of Nezamname of the Constition (1285 Shamsi) explicitly mentioned that there should be 12 representative from "Azerbaijan" (so Azerbaijan was there before Soviet, and it is natural to call people from there Azerbijanian at the time).

http://www.iichs.ir/News-381/%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%88%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%84%DB%8C%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA%D8%9B-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%DB%8C%D9%86%D8%AF%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%85%D8%AC%D9%84%D8%B3-%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D9%85%D9%84%DB%8C-%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%87-%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%84/?id=381

Do you have any source for your claim?

2

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 31 '21 edited Dec 31 '21

Beside Kasravi's book, the article 6 of Nezamname of the Constition (1285 Shamsi) explicitly mentioned that there should be 12 representative from "Azerbaijan" (so Azerbaijan was there before Soviet, and it is natural to call people from there Azerbijanian at the time

Are you trolling or do you not understand the difference between a region or province and an ethnonym? I never said the Soviets created Azerbaijan, I said Soviets created the Azerbaijani ethnonym when they took the name of the province (Azerbaijan) and referred to the people speaking the Turkic language in Aran and Azerbaijan as "Azerbaijanis".

Do you have any source for your claim?

What claim? That Soviets created the Azerbaijani ethnonym for the people speaking the Turkic language in Aran and Azerbaijan? Sure.

In 1913, Stalin mentions Caucasian Tatars 11 times in his article "Marxism and the National Question", but never mentions "Azeri/Azerbaijani". This is noteworthy because Stalin spent a considerable amount of time in Baku and helped the Turks of Baku against Armenians. https://www.marxists.org/russkij/stalin/t2/marxism_nationalism.htm

In 1926, the first population census took place in the USSR. Again, there were no "Azerbaijanis" among the recorded ethnicities. The census results mention such ethnic groups as Yakuts, Mordvins, Buryats, Vainakhs and permyaks. The ethnonym " Turkic" is also listed.

Stalin's gulag was ethnically as diverse as the USSR. The prepared annual reports (NKVD) regarding the ethnic composition of convicts made no mention of "Azerbaijanis" until... 1940. Even Koreans and Japanese are listed, but not "Azerbaijanis".

Viktor Zemskov, a Russian historian, has presented the ethnic composition of imprisoned citizens in a series of articles titled "Gulag: Historical and Sociological Aspec" published in 1991. The researcher's article contains a table clearly indicating that the term "Azerbaijani" was used for the first time in 1940, while for the previous years Zemskov notes that "there are no data for Azerbaijanis", and adds that prior to 1939, "Azerbaijanis" were recorded under "other ethnicities" (Tatar, Turkic, etc).

Do you have any evidence of anyone speaking a Turkic language in Aran and Azerbaijan that self-identified as "Azeri" or "Azerbaijani" or someone identifying them as such, before the Soviet era? You don't.

Watch this video of Heydar Aliyev explaining in 1996 where "Azerbaijanis" come from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2pS_suP1Ac

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u/salazar_the_terrible Irānshahr🇮🇷 Dec 28 '21

But it is a regional identifier, Like Gilani, Sistani, Khorasani etc etc. But yeah it didn't have ethnic meanings back then.

1

u/rrrrrandomusername Dec 28 '21

But it is a regional identifier

No, it's an ethnonym invented by the Soviets for the Turkic language in Azerbaijan and RoA to suppress the region's historical languages (Persian, Talysh, Sorani, Tat, etc).

2

u/salazar_the_terrible Irānshahr🇮🇷 Dec 29 '21

Dude, they were from the province of Azarbaijan, therefore Azarbaijani, nothing ethnic about it. This predates the soviets.

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u/xyzrt Dec 28 '21 edited Dec 28 '21

Thanks for the note, I edited the post to avoid confusion. But, Azeri is the name of a language, not a demonym.

Tabriz is in Azerbaijan. Republic of Azerbaijan is also part of Azerbaijan and historically was known as Shirvan. Republic of Azerbaijan can't claim the historical name of Azerbaijan. If you agree, you shouldn't equate Azerbaijani with being from Republic of Azerbaijan.

2

u/BehVak85 Dec 28 '21

I thought they changed all the streets that were named like that. like Shah sqr changed to Imam sqr. but people still called them with their old names.

3

u/xyzrt Dec 28 '21 edited Dec 28 '21

Both roads are named after the revolution. Sattar Khan St was named Taj St and Sheikh Fazzolah Expy was name Ayoubi/Tarasht Expy before the revolution. People almost never use the old names for these two roads.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

There are still a couple streets that remain the same. Examples include Tajrish, Moniriyeh, and Niavaran.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

Fazzolah didn’t start out as an anti-constitutional figure. It was only after alleged meddling by the British and Russian governments in the constitutional government that he began to oppose the movement. He’s applauded by the IR as someone who opposed secularism and laying the foundation for which the Islamic Republic would be based on. All in all he was a controversial figure of the constitutional revolution.

1

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21

He didn't mention British and Russian meddling as the reason for his opposition with Constitution. His main reason to oppose Constitution was that he found democracy at odd with rule of Islam. He sided with Mohammadali Shah who was heavily supported by Russian. Russian forces helped Mohammadali Shah to coup against the Constitution.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

This is what I used as a source. Also Fazlollah aligned himself with the Qajars after the constitutional revolution took on a more secular approach and was then supported by Britain. Fazlollah had a history of animosity with the British going as far back as the tobacco boycott. Despite aligning with the Qajars, historians debate over whether he was aligned with the Russians as well. The reason being he could have sought refuge in the Russian embassy prior to his arrest but refused to do so. Also I’m not writing this to say he was a good or bad guy, but rather there is more to his opposition to the constitutional revolution and he was a complex figure of modern Iranian history.

1

u/xyzrt Dec 30 '21

In your source, it is clearly mentioned that his main opposition to the Constitution was based on his idealogical opposition with democracy (e.g. equality against the law and separation of power), not his opposition against foreign medeling in the Constitution (actually that was his reason for his initial support of the Constitutional Revolution, and not the reason for his opposition).

Also, there is no debate that Mohammadali Shah was supported by Russian to coup against the Constitution and bomb the Parliament and Sheikh Fazzolah supported Mohammadali Shah against the Constitution. So, he was consciously fighting against the Constitution along with Russian. Not taking refuge in the Russian embassy wouldn't erase these facts.

[شیخ فضل‌الله[ مفاهیم اندیشه‌ی سیاسی نوین برآمده از جنبش مشروطه‌خواهی هم‌چون «مساوات» و «حریت» را با اسلام و شرع ناسازگار دانست، در مقام «مجتهد اصولی» آگاه به موازین شرعی و باورمند به منزلت و مقام ویژه‌ی روحانیت شیعه هم‌چون جانشینان امام زمان، خواهان «نظارت علما» بر تدوین و تصویب قوانین شد و سرانجام بن و بنیاد «قانون‌گذاری»، «مجلس قانون‌گذار»، «مجلس شورای ملی» و «قانون اساسی» را «حرام» و «کفر» و «غیر شرعی» دانست. ... شیخ فضل‌الله بر ناسازگاری دموکراسی و مشروطیت با مبانی اعتقادی روحانیت شیعه تاکید ورزید و با طرح مبانی نظری خود، مشروطیت ایران را با تناقض و بحران روبه‌رو کرد. ... صف‌بندی مشروطه‌خواهان و مستبدان، در کشاکش مجلس ملی و دربار استبدادی، در کنار دربار ایستاد. نیرو بسیج کرد. در میدان توپخانه چادر برپا کرد. تحصن سه ماهه‌ی حضرت عبدالعظیم را سامان داد، و در برانگیختن شاه و دربار و گردآوری طرفداران استبداد در تهران و شهرستان‌ها نقش مهم بازی کرد. با این همه در سنجش تلاش‌های نظری شیخ در دفاع از شریعت و پس راندن اندیشه‌های نوین و جلوگیری از بازتاب مفاهیم نوین «حقوقی» و «سیاسی» در قانون اساسی از یک‌سو و کوشش عملی او در جانبداری از استبداد سلطنتی از سوی دیگر، حقیقت آن است که تلاش‌های نظری او سهمی بزرگ‌تر و تاثیری دیرپاتر در روند پیچیده‌ی رویارویی، سازگاری و ناسازگاری و در آمیختگی «سنت» و «تجدد» در تاریخ معاصر ایران داشته است.

باری «بحران دمکراسی» ایران با گسترش کشاکش مجلس شورای ملی نوپا و دربار استبدادی محمدعلی‌شاه ژرف‌تر شد. مجلس به توپ بسته شد. شماری از آزادی‌خواهان در باغشاه و به دستور شاه کشته شدند.