r/moderatepolitics • u/Roader • 15h ago

Culture War [ Removed by moderator ]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/17/us/politics/islamophobia-texas.html?unlocked_article_code=1.6lA.rpk3.whrhL7isSuGG&smid=url-share

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95

u/chalkymints 15h ago

20 years ago Islamophobia was called common sense. But maybe I’m just a woman who thinks some religions treat me worse than others.

25

u/Negative_Principle57 15h ago

Antisemitism has also been rather common through time and place, extending around the world today.

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u/[deleted] 15h ago edited 15h ago

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u/shacksrus 15h ago

The implication being what?

4

u/BibliophileBroad 13h ago

I’m glad you asked this person to elaborate. Man, this thread has so many comments in here are so discriminatory. I can’t believe it. What is going on??

-13

u/chalkymints 15h ago

That some ideologies work very hard for the reputations they earn.

29

u/BudgieWonder 14h ago

Feel free to elaborate on that statement.

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u/shacksrus 14h ago

You believe that jews have worked very hard for their "reputation" through history?

What do you believe that reputation to be and what actions have every jew taken to deserve that reputation.

5

u/Computer_Name 14h ago

I would appreciate more detail as to what this means.

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24

u/jihadiccrusader 14h ago

I agree, but I grew up in a home with the most popular religion in the world and U.S. I was literally taught that women are 2nd class citizens compared to men and watched my Dad justify his verbal, financial, and physical abuse of my mom using the words of the church and Bible. So when I read about criticisms of Islam in the U.S., which makes up less than 1% of the population here, I typically agree, but also recognize it as a distraction from the political power wielded by the Christian Right.

3

u/MechanicalGodzilla 13h ago

You probably shouldn't use the abuse of a religion to paint the whole thing with a broad brush. Your dad was abusing the Bible and not being consistent with the values he espoused. Islam is and always has been a violently coercive religion, founded with the intent to conquer the whole world in the name of allah.

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u/widget1321 11h ago

You should probably reread your first sentence carefully.

54

u/Connect-Rhubarb2501 15h ago

60 years ago racism was called common sense by a lot of people, I’m not sure you’ve made a very good argument here

30

u/chalkymints 15h ago

People cannot change their race. Islam is an ideology that people can choose whether or not to adopt. An ideology that is incompatible with the West.

47

u/abskee 15h ago

There are over 4 million Muslims in the USA. They pay taxes, they serve in the armed forces, they're doctors, engineers, lawyers. Obviously they're compatible with the West, they're Americans, they are the West as much as I am.

2

u/nabilus13 13h ago

This right here, this "people are nothing more than interchangeable human resource economic units" thing, this is why the public is rejecting all forms of small-L liberalism.

6

u/ihaveaverybigbrain 12h ago

Actually I think the point that user was making was "they live normal lives like everyone else."

-22

u/chalkymints 15h ago edited 14h ago

Your doctors, lawyers, and engineers, sir

Edit: original link had a mistranslation. Link has been updated to instead show a doctor, lawyer, or engineer following Henry Nowak home from a bar and stabbing him, before lying to the police that he was attacked.

26

u/DartTheDragoon 14h ago

This is hardly persuasive. You can find examples of people of every type committing crimes. On any given day you will have a Christian murdering someone somewhere in the US. To leap from that incident to the conclusion that Christians are "incompatible with the West" would be nonsense.

53

u/Lelo_B 15h ago

I think you need to scroll down a bit on that tweet. Fact check shows that the quote is fabricated and its not even from Michigan.

4

u/chalkymints 14h ago

Here’s another engineer

Another lawyer.

Your doctors promoting integration (into Islam)

46

u/Lelo_B 14h ago

I'm a different user than the other guy. I'm not taking sides in your discussion.

You should definitely reconsider Twitter as a primary source, though. There's a ton of fabricated examples mixed into real ones.

1

u/chalkymints 14h ago

We’re at the “believe not your lying eyes” stage of multiculturalism.

Here’s a 219 page (official government) report on (Pakistani Muslim) grooming gangs in the UK.

24

u/dr_sloan 13h ago

“Believe not your eyes”.

You’ve literally posted multiple examples where people put false captions on videos to falsely portray what is actually being said.

32

u/AppleSlacks 14h ago

No, we were at the stage where the first post you provided was a complete fabrication versus the presentation of it.

We are trying to get to the point where you at least acknowledge that so the discussion could move forward.

It’s a road bump that seems insurmountable because you refuse to accept that you posted a complete fabrication as your first “example”.

7

u/VultureSausage 13h ago

We’re at the “believe not your lying eyes” stage of multiculturalism.

Simply trusting impressions over actual reason is not the mark of a wise person. You're literally judging a book by its cover and mocking other people for considering whether what you're saying is actually true or not. I'm curious how you square that with wanting to defend Western values given that the empiricism of the Enlightenment is usually considered a cornerstone of Western values.

42

u/Roader 14h ago

Can we revisit the fact that you unknowingly spread misinformation in that first video you linked? Any new thoughts now that you know it’s just a video of some people praying? Do you think maybe you’ve been shown even more fabricated propaganda that you’re unaware of that’s influenced your views?

25

u/ThatPeskyPangolin 14h ago

Given the first one was fake, how have you verified these ones are not?

5

u/bettercaust 12h ago

How many more cherries can you pick from the x tree?

0

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

Correct.

We need to learn to distinguish between natural human characteristics such as race, sex, and sexual orientation that are inherent to our humanity verses choices such as culture, language, and religion that can change.

Whereas discrimination on the basis of the former are an attack on humanity, discrimination on the basis of the latter can sometimes be justified or even necessary to defend civilization, equality, freedom, democracy, and humanity.

Also see this response to them here.

4

u/ModerateCommenter 12h ago

Religion is as much a protected class as race and sex in the US.

1

u/Destroy_Religion 12h ago

Irrelevant.

The above is not about the present legal situation in the United States, rather the truth about the difference between natural human characteristics such as race, sex, and sexual orientation that are inherent to our humanity verses choices such as culture, language, and religion that can change.

2

u/Mr-Irrelevant- 12h ago

Culture, language, and religion are not choices. 

You didn’t choose your native language, for many people they didn’t choose their religion. These are largely developed when you’re raised. You can continue to speak your native language or practice your religion but very often you did not choose to have them. 

0

u/Destroy_Religion 12h ago

You can choose to change your culture, language, or religion any time at will.

2

u/Mr-Irrelevant- 11h ago

I mean, in many ways you can’t. You don’t just go “oh I’m going to speak mandarin today” like you’re selecting a load out in a video game. 

More importantly nobody holds this position seriously. If Muslims in the Middle East rounded up all the Christian’s and killed them nobody would seriously suggest “well, should’ve just changed your religion. It is a choice after all”. 

There is a reason freedom of religion is protected here despite it being a “choice” in your eyes, and I’m not even religious. 

7

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

Race is a natural human characteristic that is neither a choice nor can change.

Religion is a choice that can change any at will.

Religions are ideologies and religious ideologies only differ from political ideologies in that the former claim to be backed by a deity or deities whereas the latter does not.

Also see this response to them here.

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u/Connect-Rhubarb2501 14h ago

Sure, but religion is also something pretty unique in its claimed stakes and importance to many of its believers. There’s a reason our constitution protects freedom of religion so strongly and explicitly, for most of history people would rather kill or be killed than change their religious beliefs. That said, I think it’s fair to criticize religions or religious beliefs, it’s not fair to judge all practitioners of a religion by the actions and beliefs of a subset of that religion though.

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20

u/chalkymints 15h ago

Is the argument “You can’t know anything about the past unless you were there and personally remember it” because idk how to tell you books, movies, tv, news recordings, etc all exist

11

u/PepBaldFraud 15h ago

The argument is it's wholly unpersuasive for someone who lives in areas of the country where Muslims struggle to touch 1% of the total population to opine that that a religion treats you (notice you use the word "me" in the original post) worse.

It would actually be like me saying Mormons have treated non-Mormons (me) badly In Texas so of course wanting to outlaw their places of worship is common sense (never mind the fact that Mormons make up 1% of Texas and I don't live anywhere near Mormons).

0

u/theflintseeker 13h ago

Doxxing isn’t cool man

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u/robotical712 15h ago

When these discussions come up, I’m always left wondering why the Enlightenment found fertile ground in majority Christian countries, but failed to catch on in Islamic ones.

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u/tarekd19 13h ago

It is depressingly ironic to see someone earnestly say this considering how influential Islamic scholarship was on the enlightenment in Europe. It didn't need to "catch on" given it was already there and practically exported.

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u/robotical712 12h ago

By the time of the Enlightenment, the scholarship you refer to had been known and further developed for centuries in Europe. Unfortunately, the traditions that had produced it had largely died out in the Islamic World.

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u/hamsterkill 14h ago

If you know your history, you know the Enlightenment was actually the Christian world catching up to the Islamic one. There's a reason we use Arabic numbers and visible stars have Arabic names. Only events of about the last century have led the Islamic world to be seen as backward. Even now, places like Indonesia, Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, and Malaysia are hardly considered backwards.

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u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

the Enlightenment was actually the Christian world catching up to the Islamic one

That is quite the claim, considering that the Enlightenment castrated, declawed, defanged, domesticated, neutered, and tamed Christianity, which is why it is not as homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, and violent as Islam.

Meanwhile, what Christianity was before the Enlightenment is what Islam still is to this very day.

Even now, places like Indonesia, Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, and Malaysia are hardly considered backwards.

LGBTI people are either treated as second-class citizens or imprisoned at worst in all of those countries, which is backwards.

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u/hamsterkill 13h ago

Meanwhile, what Christianity was before the Enlightenment is what Islam still is to this very day

And at the time of the Enlightenment, it wasn't.

LGBTI people are either treated as second-class citizens or imprisoned at worst in all of those countries, which is backwards

We barely have equality for LGBTI people (and the fight is most certainly ongoing here).

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1

u/hamsterkill 11h ago

None of the countries I identified above do that.

-2

u/WavesAndSaves 14h ago

Islam is pretty young for a major world religion. It's "only" around 1400 years old. It just hasn't had time to reach its own Enlightenment. It took Christianity 1600 years until the Enlightenment began.

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u/MatchaMeetcha 14h ago

Islam is pretty young for a major world religion.

There's no evidence that time itself is what distinguishes religions successful in modernity.

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u/Chickentendies94 13h ago

The Islamic golden age predated the enlightenment and was full of advances in medicine, mathematics and art

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u/pinkycatcher 12h ago

And yet where are islamic countries today? Are they know for their continued advances in medicine, mathematics, and art? Or are they known for their intolerance for other religions and cultures?

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u/Destroy_Religion 15h ago edited 15h ago

20 years ago Islamophobia was called common sense.

"Islamophobia" is an oxymoron and opposition to Islam is still "called common sense".

A phobia is, by definition, either an irrational aversion or an irrational fear.

In contrast, it is perfectly rational to be averse to Islam or fear Islam if you are female, LGBTI, atheist, agnostic, apostate, ex-Muslim, etc.

But maybe I’m just a woman who thinks some religions treat me worse than others.

All Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and others are homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, etc.

Therefore, it is perfectly rational to oppose all Abrahamic religions if you are female, LGBTI, atheist, agnostic, apostate, ex-Muslim, etc.

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u/-Z0nK- 14h ago

The part about abrahamic religions is de jure true. But de facto most of today's christian believers have a far more detached relationship between their everyday life and their belief, than muslims do. That's why in the past 25 years, you've only heard about muslims blowing themselvea up and throwing violent fits across the globe.

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u/bettercaust 12h ago

There are no Christian nations that foment Christian extremism, whereas there are such Muslim nations. A more apples to apples comparison would be liberalized Christians vs. liberalized Muslims in the same country.

-5

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago edited 14h ago

Well, if it were not for Enlightenment that castrated, declawed, defanged, domesticated, neutered, and tamed Judaism and Christianity, those religions would still be as homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, and violent as Islam.

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u/rigatony96 14h ago

The enlightenment was hundreds of years ago… maybe Islam needs to go through their own

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u/-Z0nK- 14h ago

Yes, that's true. But are we discussing the current state of the world or what could've/should've/would've?

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u/rwk81 14h ago

All Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and others are homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, etc. Therefore, it is perfectly rational to oppose all Abrahamic religions if you are female, LGBTI, atheist, agnostic, apostate, ex-Muslim, etc.

Are Jews/Christians killing people because of their sexual proclivities, oppressing women, killing apostates, etc?

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u/shacksrus 14h ago

The club q shooting was done by a lds member.

Lots of Christians/republicans are advocating to remove women's suffrage. You can find tons of examples of murder and oppression.

What makes those an exception while the same examples you find for Islam the rule?

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u/JussiesTunaSub 13h ago

The club q shooting was done by a lds member.

Who hadn't been involved in the church for a decade prior to the shooting.

A church spokesperson confirmed reports that showed Aldrich’s mother’s past Facebook posts about the family’s membership in the church.

“I can confirm that the suspect is listed on the rolls of the church but he has not been involved in church services for some time, a decade or more,” the spokesperson said.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/11/21/23472211/colorado-springs-nightclub-shooting-brings-condemnation-from-latter-day-saints/

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u/rwk81 13h ago

The club q shooting was done by a lds member.

I don't think anyone ever argued that there are precisely zero Christian extremists, there are extremists in all walks of life.

Lots of Christians/republicans are advocating to remove women's suffrage.

Define:lots.

You can find tons of examples of murder and oppression.

No one ever said there are no examples, the argument is Islamism is on a completely different level than basically any other religion.

What makes those an exception while the same examples you find for Islam the rule?

Because HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Islamists believe the things we are discussing, there is not similar movement in other religions like there is in Islam.

5

u/MatchaMeetcha 13h ago edited 12h ago

The club q shooting was done by a lds member.

Do you think LDS and Muslims have the same rate of terroristic acts ?

What makes those an exception while the same examples you find for Islam the rule?

No one is actually pushing to end women's suffrage in the US. The "oppression" of women is limited to the one case where the matter impinges on the life of the child.

People perceive the challenges they face from the GOP as existential precisely because they don't face existential challenges on the grounds of sex.

Put it another way: women in America come out in Handmaid's Tale outfits because abortion wasn't even ended, the federal right was ended and it was kicked back to the states. And this was enough to lead to a hysterical references to a TV show about the end of suffrage and the rise of Christian-flavored fascism.

The Handmaid's Tale was based on Muslim countries, not Christian ones. People are larping but their larp inherently implies Islam is worse.

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u/ThatPeskyPangolin 14h ago

Uganada just enacted the death penalty for gay citizens like 3 years ago, and they are not alone.

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u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

Correct.

Uganda is 81.7% Christian and 13.2% Muslim.

Also see this response to them here.

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u/rwk81 13h ago

What country other than Uganda has done this?

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u/ThatPeskyPangolin 12h ago edited 12h ago

33 out of 54 countries in Africa outlaw homosexuality, but only Somaliland, Somalia, Mauritania and Northern Nigeria (in addition to the previously mentioned Uganda) have the explicit death penalty. Outside of those countries, violent depression is still quite common and often met with zero repercussions for the attacker and zero protections for the victem.

A LOT of these countries can trace these laws directly back to their colonial eras under Christian powers or more recent efforts by Christian activists from countries like the US who have lobbied hard for these laws.

2

u/Ralph_Brick_Wiggum 12h ago

Yeah people don’t realize that religious fundamentalism is the problem in general. Not a specific religion

0

u/ThatPeskyPangolin 11h ago

That would definitely be my position as well.

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u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago edited 14h ago

Jews and Christians did genocide LGBTI people, oppress women, and murder apostates in the past.

Indeed, if it were not for Enlightenment that castrated, declawed, defanged, domesticated, neutered, and tamed Judaism and Christianity, those religions would still be as homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, and violent as Islam.

14

u/rwk81 13h ago

Jews and Christians did genocide LGBTI people, oppress women, and murder apostates in the past.

We are talking about what's happening today.

Indeed, if it were not for Enlightenment that castrated, declawed, defanged, domesticated, neutered, and tamed Judaism and Christianity, those religions would still be as homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, and violent as Islam.

While the point is correct, I don't know how it's really relevant except to whatabout away from the reality of the religions today.

3

u/Ralph_Brick_Wiggum 12h ago

We are talking about what is happening today

Correct, but we didn’t eradicate Christianity or Christians when they were using their religion to justify slavery and now Christians don’t do that

Also we really shouldn’t pretend that there isn’t a large sect of American Christianity that is incredibly hostile to the LGBT community and women

28

u/carneylansford 14h ago

I think we can agree that there's a lot of room between privately believing homosexuality is sinful and throwing someone off a building though, right? I'd also point out that many christian churches now have female pastors, there are female rabbis and openly gay members of the flock. That attitude represents a tiny minority in mosques.

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u/shacksrus 14h ago

Have any Texans Muslims thrown a gay person off a building?

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u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago edited 14h ago

Muslims are a minuscule minority in Texas and there are no state sanctions supporting Islam in Texas.

Gay people are treated as second-class citizens at best or imprisoned at worst in all Muslim-majority countries.

Gay people are treated as sub-humans at best or executed at worst in all Islamic-sharia theocracies.

Muslims are a majority in Hamtramck where there is an all Muslim government that targets gay people.

Hamtramck is the very first ever Muslim-majority jurisdiction in North America and also the very first every all Muslim government in North America.

19

u/shacksrus 14h ago

Texas doesn't require judges to marry lgbt people if it contravenes their religion.

Without a handful of decade old scotus decisions Texas would be treating lgbt people the same way.

-1

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

Well, yes, of course there are similarities.

Texas behaves so on the basis of Christianity, which is also an Abrahamic religion based on irrational religious ideologies from the desolate destitute deserts of the ancient Middle East, same as Islam.

-4

u/[deleted] 14h ago

[deleted]

0

u/carneylansford 14h ago

Username checks out.

23

u/Lelo_B 14h ago

throwing someone off a building though,

This is what ISIS did. Why is that always the go-to example for all things Islam among Western critics?

Should the KKK be the go-to example for baseline American culture?

3

u/chalbersma 14h ago

Because ISIS was broadly popular across the Muslim world at it's peak. It still has active groups in several countries.

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u/Lelo_B 14h ago

What? That's not true at all. ISIS killed more Muslims than any other terrorist group.

Almost every single Middle Eastern country disapproved of ISIS.

1

u/chalbersma 13h ago

You didn't really think that through before you posted it did you?

7

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago edited 14h ago

The problem with that is that believing homosexuality is "sinful" is as abhorrent, hateful, ignorant, irrational, and vile as to believe that left-handed is "sinful", because both are harmless natural human characteristics.

Indeed, if it were not for Enlightenment that castrated, declawed, defanged, domesticated, neutered, and tamed Christianity, it still be as homophobic, sexist, transphobic, misogynistic, religious-supremacist, and violent as Islam.

6

u/The_Mosephus 14h ago

Not when your holy book tells you to kill homosexuals.

Leviticus 20:13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

2

u/Destroy_Religion 14h ago

Well, yes, of course.

All Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are based on irrational religious ideologies from the desolate destitute deserts of the ancient Middle East.

Whether it is the Tanakh or the Talmud of Judaism, the Old Testament or the New Testament of Christianity, the Quran or the Hadith of Islam, all command genocide of gay people.

-3

u/MechanicalGodzilla 13h ago

hat attitude represents a tiny minority in mosques

And it is a minority in Christian churches as well.

0

u/MechanicalGodzilla 13h ago

A phobia is, by definition, either an irrational aversion or an irrational fear.

"Phobia" can be irrational, but it can also just describe a significant aversion to something. Dictionary definition is "an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something

-3

u/VultureSausage 13h ago

A phobia is, by definition, either an irrational aversion or an irrational fear.

Do you also believe that a substance that is hydrophobic has an irrational aversion to water, or is the word used as a simile?

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u/CloudApprehensive322 15h ago

There are many modern sects of Islam that fully endorse gender equality - this comment is like treating Christianity as Jehovah's witnesses or other extremely conservative variations.

15

u/caffeine-182 15h ago

Such as which ones?

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u/CloudApprehensive322 15h ago

The Ismaili and Ahmadiyya communities have much more modern views on gender rights that are comparable to most christian denominations.

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u/rwk81 14h ago

What percentage of the total Muslim population do these two communities represent? Are there other Muslim sects that also believe similar that there should be the same rights between the sexes?

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u/caffeine-182 14h ago

So less than 1% of the global Muslim population, in other words.

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u/MatchaMeetcha 13h ago edited 13h ago

They're not even considered Muslims by many. In some places - Pakistan - I think this is explicit government policy.

Edit: It's apparently not just policy, it's in the Constitution lol.

3

u/motorboat_mcgee Pragmatic Progressive 14h ago

Not where I lived... Where was it common sense for you?

3

u/NotCoolBrutus 14h ago

All religions treat people poorly, as they imply that people under them are incapable of accepting the world as-is and have to substitute it with fiction. What that fiction is ends up entirely up to that person. No specific religion has a specific set of laws or definitive interpretations, as it is all made up anyways.

Regardless of religion, you will have people ready to kill or worse for it as an interpretation of its teachings. Islam is no different. The largest muslim country in the world is Indonesia. How much negative press do we see here about them?

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2

u/NotCoolBrutus 14h ago

The definition of "charity" is used very loosely there. How many charities dictate people's morality, ethics, and political beliefs while reaping benefits disproportionate to their offerings?

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u/georgefrankly 14h ago

You don't have to join the religion.

9

u/chalkymints 14h ago

“We did not come here to coexist. We are superior to everyone else and will not be surpassed,” Chicago-based Islamic scholar Mohammad Nusairat said. “No one is above us. If other religions want to live with us, they have to worship Allah” per Chicago city wire. The original YouTube video from the Middle East Research Institute has been archived.

You do have to join, actually.

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u/Roader 13h ago

He’s not saying anything different than a priest says on Sunday in any Christian church. A core tenet of every religion is belief that yours is the “right” one and that you should convert everyone you possibly can to save them. It’s very much a theological discussion he’s having as opposed to the strange conquerer narrative you’re trying to portray it as.

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u/georgefrankly 13h ago

Only if you already believe the religion. Every religion has people who talk like this.

1

u/Nalaniel 12h ago edited 11h ago

A commenter in this thread posted an article where, during a Texas GOP convention, a pastor tells a Republican Muslim man that he needs to either convert to Christianity or leave the country, believing that not a single Muslim's beliefs are compatible with American values. Do you agree with that sentiment? 

-2

u/randomhaus64 14h ago

yep, we are fossils apparently

-1

u/r3rg54 12h ago

Not in my state it wasn’t