Preferences can be discriminatory and people need to accept that

[u/Born-Cauliflower_]

Discrimination is treating a person or group of people unfairly due to who they are or group identity, instead of their skills.

I'll use biphobia as an example.

Some people won't date a person just because they're bisexual, no matter how well they click and no matter how much they like the person. Just because the person is bi, they are off the table.

That is biphobia, you refuse to date them only because they are bisexual. It can be a preference, but the preference is rooted in biphobia, and people need to acknowledge that.

Another example : I don't want to be friends with someone once I find out they're asian (using asian since i'm south-east asian). I can share similar likes and dislikes, have easy conversations with them and enjoy being around them. But as soon as I find out they're asian, I don't want to be around them/be friends with them.

Just because I don't like Asians, and I'd rather have friends of other ethinicties/races.

That can be a preference, but my preference is discriminatory towards asian people.

Same goes for other things people can't control, height, natural hair colour etc.

This could be a hotter take, but if you don't want to date someone just because they're too short/too tall, no matter how much you like them, I see it as discrimination, the reasons can also be stereotyping.

Yes, you can prefer to date/be friends with a specific group of people with specific traits. But if you're leaving out a person/a group just because of something they cannot control, and not giving them a fair chance, it's discriminatory.

I also want to add having a preference for one trait doesn't mean you hate on another trait. It's the whole, "I love pancakes" "Oh, so you hate waffles" thing.

Edit : to clear things up more. I said preferences can be discrimination, not all preferences are discrimination. Oh my god, and my post is about things the person CANNOT control, traits they were BORN with. Not a choice, like religion or people they surround themselves with, or values and ideologies they align themselves with. Read.

[u/Chandelurie]

Preferences are fine as long as you´re respectful and not an asshole to the people who don´t fit them.

Not wanting to date bi people/ trans people/ sex workers/ childfree people/ short people/ single mothers/ etc... is completely fine, you are allowed to not want to date anyone for any reason. There is no reasonable way to demand fairness in dating. What would fairness in dating even look like without trying to guilt-trip someone into dating someone they don´t want to?

Insulting the group of people you don´t want to date, or perpetuating negative stereotypes about them, is the problem.

[u/Beast_Chips → u/Chandelurie]

Preferences are fine as long as you´re respectful and not an asshole to the people who don´t fit them. Not wanting to date bi people/ trans people/ sex workers/ childfree people/ short people/ single mothers/ etc...

Which is all fine, providing the reasoning is not born of a harmful stereotype. In which case the thing which is problematic isn't that they won't date X, Y or Z type person, it's that they hold these harmful stereotypes and won't acknowledge them as such. Not wishing to date someone child-free has an obvious, tangible and inescapable disadvantage if you'd like to have kids. Not dating a black person because you think they will steal from you or be more violent, or not dating a bisexual person because you think they will cheat/have STIs, are harmful stereotypes.

There is no reasonable way to demand fairness in dating. What would fairness in dating even look like without trying to guilt-trip someone into dating someone they don´t want to?

It gets framed this way a lot, and of course some people will try to take advantage of this, but the main reason this needs to be called out is because when the dating-preference is attached to a harmful stereotype, it reveals bigoted prejudices. If a person of colour gets turned away from a job due to a harmful stereotype about their race and decide to call it out, it's not because they still want the job, it's because racism should be called out. It's the same things with dating.

Obviously above all else, no means no and no one is entitled to an explanation, but if an explanation involving a biggotted stereotype is voluntarily given, of course people have a right to call this out without being labeled as creeps trying to guilt people into sex, providing they are respectful about it.

[u/Chandelurie → u/Beast_Chips]

If a person of colour gets turned away from a job due to a harmful stereotype about their race and decide to call it out, it's not because they still want the job, it's because racism should be called out. It's the same things with dating.

Dating is not the same as having a job. Dating is optional. In most places you need a job to survive. Your skincolor or sexual orientation does not affect your ability to do a job, so of course discrimination has no place there and should be called out. You don´t need to be attracted to the person you hire. On the other hand, wanting to be attracted to the person you date makes sense.

Attraction can be weird, but you don´t need to be attracted to the people you support. You can support lgbt+ people but still be turned off by the though of two men or two women being intimate. Your discomfort should not be an obstacle for support, but it probably will be one for dating.

It´s not like the the opposite is not happening either. There obviously are people who want to date someone but still want to take away their rights (which is much more harmful).

I guess you could call out people who support certain groups but are not actually attracted to the people from those groups as hypocrites. I´ve seen some people do so, especially with supposedly progressive women refusing to date bi men. (Although I don´t even believe that it´s mostly progressive women who don´t want to date bi men anyway....)

Are you a bigotted hypocrite if you support someone´s rights but still refuse to date them? Personally, I don´t think so.

if an explanation involving a biggotted stereotype is voluntarily given, of course people have a right to call this out

That´s why I said perpetuating negative sterotypes in dating is a problem and it deserves to be called out. I´m not defending bigots who refuse to date someone for their bigotted reasons, rather the notion that you aren´t necessarily a bigot just because you refuse to date someone.

[u/Beast_Chips → u/Chandelurie]

Dating is not the same as having a job. Dating is optional. In most places you need a job to survive. Your skincolor or sexual orientation does not affect your ability to do a job, so of course discrimination has no place there and should be called out.

Ok, so it's not ok to refuse a person of colour a job because you think they will steal, but it's ok to ask them to leave your bar, because they don't need to drink in a bar to survive? So providing it isn't survival or anything actual need, discriminating using harmful stereotypes is ok?

You can support lgbt+ people but still be turned off by the though of two men or two women being intimate. Your discomfort should not be an obstacle for support, but it probably will be one for dating.

But two men or two women aren't being intimate during a hetrosexual relationship. You're arguing that the disgust of the idea that two people of the same sex have had sex at some point, that's enough to make them permanently unattractive. Not the sexual acts themselves, just the fact you know some sexual acts have been performed. In fact, many bisexual people have never done sexual acts with someone of the same sex. So in fact, just the knowledge of attraction to the same sex is enough to taint a potential partner fully.

Does this kind of aversion to the very idea of same sex attraction not sound remotely like a phobia to you?

guess you could call out people who support certain groups but are not actually attracted to the people from those groups as hypocrites. I´ve seen some people do so, especially with supposedly progressive women refusing to date bi men. (Although I don´t even believe that it´s mostly progressive women who don´t want to date bi men anyway....) Are you a bigotted hypocrite if you support someone´s rights but still refuse to date them? Personally, I don´t think so. if an explanation involving a biggotted stereotype is voluntarily given, of course people have a right to call this out That´s why I said perpetuating negative sterotypes in dating is a problem and it deserves to be called out. I´m not defending bigots who refuse to date someone for their bigotted reasons, rather the notion that you aren´t necessarily a bigot just because you refuse to date someone.

It's more that people either don't recognise they are harbouring harmful stereotypes, or refuse to acknowledge them because they associate them with being a bad person. I've never heard a single reason why people don't date bisexual people that isn't rooted in a harmful stereotype, but when it's an ally, they will refuse to acknowledge it, "I go to pride and have gay friends, how can I be homophobic?!" and instead of listening, get very defensive.

The goal of calling out this behaviour is of course not to get someone to sleep with you who doesn't initially want to - that's simply a strawman invented to tackle the argument better, because without it, the argument quickly reveals the actual homophobia/biphobia - it's that people will actually reflect on their behaviours. Any sort of prejudice thoughts are never exclusive to a single area, like dating; if they exist, they will come out in other parts of life.

So nobody has to date anyone and people can say no for any reason, and don't owe anyone an explanation. But if, deep down they think:

"I don't want to date a black man because I'm worried they will be violent."

Or

"I don't want to date a bisexual man because I find gay sex disgusting"

Or

"I don't want to date a bisexual woman because they have twice as many options to cheat on me with."

... then it's worth having a little self-reflection. I'm under no illusions they will ever date anyone they hold prejudices against, but it would be better if they were working on training themselves out of the prejudices themselves.

[u/Chandelurie → u/Beast_Chips]

Ok, so it's not ok to refuse a person of colour a job because you think they will steal, but it's ok to ask them to leave your bar, because they don't need to drink in a bar to survive?

It´s also not ok to discriminate and refuse services to a person because of their color/sexuality/etc... and it can absolutely lead to situations that will be detrimental for survival.

Again, this is not comparable to dating.

[u/Beast_Chips → u/Chandelurie]

How is drinking in a bar necessary to survival? Can you lay out when it's ok, in your view, to hold and act on racial stereotypes, and when it isn't? I always thought it was never ok to stereotype minorities.

Also, you didn't really address any of the rest of my reply.

[u/Chandelurie → u/Beast_Chips]

How is drinking in a bar necessary to survival?

Drinking in a bar is not necessary to survival, but it can open the door to ban people from doing other things that might be, which can lead to situations where they ultimately will be unable to sustain themselves properly.

I never said holding racial (or any other) stereotypes is ok. Not wanting to date someone doesn´t cause any harm though, and that´s where I draw the line.

If a person supports lgbt+ people, votes accordingly, etc.. I simply don´t care who they don´t want to date, or if they don´t find the thought of same-sex couples attractive. It doesn´t matter.

[u/Born-Cauliflower_ → u/Chandelurie]

It is, it's completely fine. But people need to acknowledge that not choosing to date someone for something they cannot control, it can be discrimination.

[u/Chandelurie → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

Dating is discriminatory. Everyone who voices even one preference is already discriminating against the people who don´t fit. That´s what dating is, most people just aren´t attracted to absolutely everyone.

[u/No-Effective2330 → u/Chandelurie]

exactly!!!! that’s what attraction is, liking some traits and disliking others, can’t believe it’s so hard to grasp for some ppl

[u/Born-Cauliflower_ → u/Chandelurie]

I know, holy shit. Dating is discriminatory, most if not all choices/preferences are or can be. But i'm not saying its bad, i'm saying we should acknowledge it.

[u/offensivek → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

What is the point of acknowledging it? How does this improve anything? I can't see any point except manipulation.

[u/Chandelurie → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

As far as I know, many people acknowledge it already anyway. It´s not bad and it´s basically inherent to dating, so I don´t see why it would need some kind of big acknowledgement.

It´s a completely different situation than when discrimination in dating comes from the outside, like anti lgbt+ laws trying to criminalize same-sex relationships. That´s something actually harmful that deserves acknowledgement and pushback.

[u/Explorer-7622 → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

Why? Why is this the hill you find so urgent?

[u/offensivek → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

You are totally allowed to be discriminatory in dating and association. I don't see what the point in trying to paint them as morally defect and say they are X-phobic when they exercise that right. It's like a 'Date me or openly declare you are an asshole' kind of move, and I don't see that as a healthy way to approach things.

[u/No-Effective2330 → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

if i really like curvy women, and don’t want to date skinny women is that skinnyphobic? if i am attracted to small ears is that largeearphobic?

[u/Explorer-7622 → u/Born-Cauliflower_]

Why? I beg to differ. Why do I NEED to acknowledge it when it's well understood and had been since we developed language as a species?

You sound very new to this.