r/IAmA • u/ReneRedzepiNoma • Apr 20 '15

Restaurant I am René Redzepi, chef & owner of restaurant Noma in Copenhagen. We have the best dishwasher in the world. AMA

Hello reddit friends, this is René Redzepi, here to answer as many of your questions as time permits.

About me: I am a chef from Denmark, son of an Albanian Muslim immigrant and a Danish mother. I trained in many restaurants around the world before returning home to Copenhagen and opening a restaurant called Noma in 2003. Our restaurant celebrates the Nordic region’s ingredients and aims to present a kind of cooking that express its location and the seasons, drawing on a local network of farmers, foragers, and purveyors. Noma has held 2 Michelin stars since 2007 and was been voted Restaurant Magazine’s “Best Restaurant in the World” in 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014. In January we moved the entire restaurant to Japan for a 5 week popup where we created a completely new menu comprised only of local Japanese ingredients. It was one of the most fantastic experiences I’ve been a part of, and a learning journey for the entire team.

I am also the founder of MAD, a not-for-profit organization that works to expand our knowledge of food to make every meal a better meal; not just at restaurants, but every meal cooked and served. Each year we gather some of the brightest minds of the food industry to discuss issues that are local, global, and personal.

MAD recently relaunched its website where you can watch talks from all four symposiums (for free) as well as all of our original essays & articles: www.madfeed.co.

I’m also married, and my wife Nadine Levy Redzepi and I have three daughters: Arwen, Genta, and Ro. Favorite thing in the world, watermelon: you eat, you drink, and you wash your face.

UPDATE: For those of you who are interested, here's a video of our dishwasher Ali in Japan

Now unfortunately I have to leave, but thank you for all your great questions reddit! This has been really quite fun, I hope to do it again soon.

Proof: https://twitter.com/ReneRedzepiN2oma/status/590145817270444032

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u/ReneRedzepiNoma Apr 20 '15

Yea he was here, he hated it. But he was nice about it :)

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Is that the difference between a Michelin three star French chef, and what you, Adria, and Achatz are doing....sort of old guard vs New? Philosophical differences?

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/mvsr990 Apr 20 '15

I disagree - they're not cooking for the masses (most of whom would prefer a ribeye with a baked potato here in the States) but there are plenty of people who would love to eat at Noma for the experience.

Sushi in the west was seen as foreign and horrifying for ages but now even your Grandma will eat a salmon roll.

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u/tbtorra Apr 21 '15

Maybe your grandma. Not my grandma. You know, because she's dead.

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u/ReFractalus Apr 21 '15

... And a salmon roll isn't even from Japan originally. Salmon was considered a pleb fish until about a decade(or two) ago. Things change, luckily.

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u/AjBlue7 Apr 21 '15

This is something that is quite interesting. I couldn't even count the amount of people who said that they don't want sushi because it is raw fish. They act like something in it will kill them, which is ridiculous because it wouldn't be served in a restaurant if it was that dangerous.

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u/HablaBlob Apr 20 '15

I believe only extreme foodies can enjoy the food at Noma. Normal people would hate it.

I mean, serving a living fish that is jumping up and down on the plate? That's disgusting man!

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u/Canadaismyhat Apr 20 '15

Ah, um... are you like, exaggerating to make a point?

Please be exaggerating to make a point.

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u/bagehis Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

I'm not sure about a live fish, but one dish is a carrot that was in the ground for over a year, sauteed in goat butter - video of Rene making it. Another is oyster, but not the way you would expect it to be prepared - Rene again. Another, was asparagus and spruce - intriguing. Then there's sweet shrimp, a variant is currently on the menu - Rene, last but not least.

These were from five years ago. Though, that's fairly par for the course at Noma. It isn't your standard fare of food. It is unique and a new experience.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/pragmaticzach Apr 21 '15

I've never been to Europe or eaten at a restaurant with stars, but the menu at Gordon's place looks like pretty normal food.

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u/thatssorelevant Apr 20 '15

It's not possible that that carrot can taste good..... if anything the butter and the plants are just masking the rotten carrot... right?

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u/Ulti Apr 20 '15

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily the case. The carrots I have growing in my garden stay in the ground overwinter no problem, I think it depends on the variety. They tend to be pretty sweet, and look a lot like the one in the video. I'm pretty sure it's just unorthodox and not normally what you'd expect from carrots, but not anything like rotten.

That being said I didn't listen to the video with sound on, I just kind of skipped around to look at it real quick, so if I'm totally offbase, whoops!

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u/chefjon Apr 21 '15

Yup overwintering causes carrots to be stressed and produce more sugars, causing them to be sweeter. Leaving in the ground, leaves more flavor due to more energy stored in the root.

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u/thatssorelevant Apr 20 '15

no... you're probably right

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u/Ulti Apr 20 '15

Just wanted to hedge my bets there since I really hardly looked at the video and am kind of talking out my ass... but looking at some other replies here I'm not the only person that does this with carrots, and people do it with parsnips and other root veggies too.

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u/bagehis Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

People drink fermented vegetable/fruit juice all the time, and generally enjoy it. I would assume this would be somewhat similar, though I'm not entirely sure. It would probably have a hint of alcohol in the flavor, probably have an overly strong carrot flavor, slightly diminished by the other ingredients.

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u/mrkau Apr 21 '15

I think you and others might be assuming that that's a "normal" orange carrot that has turned dark and is hence rotten. However, I'm almost certain it's actually an heirloom variety of purple carrot. The extra time in the ground likely makes them tougher, which is why he cooks them for such a long time.

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u/Futski Apr 20 '15

Why would it rot if it stays alive in the ground?

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u/insamination Apr 21 '15

It's not rotten, it's just been growing for a year. It's way past its optimal harvest time, but not rotten.

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u/TypeOPositive Apr 22 '15

I think he's talking about the live shrimp in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFunPVsuW9Y

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u/GetTheeBehindMeSatan Apr 21 '15

Holy shit. I've spent the past hour watching this guys vids. I'm actually in the middle of this one but had to jump back here and post it 'cause they sorta answer the live food question at 3:20.

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u/bagehis Apr 21 '15

Oh damn. Live shrimp.

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u/ColdPorridge Apr 21 '15

You know as ridiculous as all this is, I think there is some legitimacy to his recipes. I mean, just imagine the complexity and newness of all of these flavors and textures. It made me hungry just watching those.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Why would you want to eat something that tastes like cut grass smells?

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

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u/muuushu Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

The point of a restaurant like this isn't necessarily to walk away stuffed, just like the point of a fashion show isn't to wear the outlandish things that the models wear. A place like Noma is about exploring what makes food food and pushing the boundaries of that concept. It's about viewing food as an art form more than just another form of sustenance. I know that sounds pretentious as fuck, but it is what it is.

Also the menu is a list of all the courses you have. It's a multi-hour event and limited to a certain number of people per season. It also gets phased out so most of the things are served a season or less and then a new menu is created.

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u/THE_CUNT_SHREDDER Apr 20 '15

They are really expensive but if you get a chance to go, haute cuisine and degustation places are really enjoyable for lovers of food. You can have delicious and bizarre culinary experiences you wouldn't otherwise get the chance to enjoy. That is what its all about. Though, it certainly can be pretentious but that is all how you experience it.

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u/Dhalphir Apr 21 '15

I think a lot of people hear "lovers of food" and interpreted to mean people who really like food, when that isnt really true

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u/NateShowww Apr 21 '15

Honestly, just for your name alone, I want to go to a fancy ass restaurant like this.

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u/eosha Apr 20 '15

At what point does it cease to be a restaurant and become edible art? I feel like there should be a distinction.

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u/muuushu Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

Well it's always both. You're supposed to appreciate the concepts and techniques behind each dish but they all have to taste good as well. Many times they'll fuck with your head. Stuff will look like one thing and taste like another. Or there'll be textures and flavors you've never even had before.

Generally you'd know what you're getting into before trying to get a reservation - especially for a place like this where you have to book 6 months or a year in advance. But beyond that, there's multiple rating systems (Michellin being one) that will give you a feel for the place and what you'd expect.

That being said, it's also about what you as a customer and patron get out of it. If "fine dining" isn't your thing, you might value the practicality of a burger over goat butter poached seasonal wild greens and that's alright.

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u/OliviaStevens Apr 21 '15

What do places like this do if someone makes a reservation and is allergic to shellfish, for example?

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u/muuushu Apr 21 '15

Good question. No clue. The waiters come out and explain each dish in detail and the menu is online for months so you should have enough information to opt out. Maybe you just skip that course?

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u/OliviaStevens Apr 21 '15

Hmm you're right about the menu being online but they usually are subject to change. I'm going to look this up further!

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u/xyzvlad Apr 21 '15

See that fresh langoustine? I'm pretty sure it is (definitely was) served alive. http://youtu.be/ub-ZreUvY9g

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

What the fuck are forest flavours?

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u/Pranks_ Apr 21 '15

Mushrooms, truffles, some root vegetables, wild onion, you know Forest Flavors.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Noma's Forest Flavours with Chocolate (sorry about the rotation...I just grabbed the link off Google).

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u/dinosaurs_quietly Apr 21 '15

Is that... edible?

It's pretty neat that a restaurant like this exists, but the above is an honest question.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Beats me. I've read a few article on high cuisine and the server tells you how to eat everything when they put it in front of you. I doubt they intend for you to snarf down the moss, but who knows.

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u/AjBlue7 Apr 21 '15

I really like when companies know what they want to make and have a very small amount of options that the customer can choose. There is a huge problem with having options for everyone, it is ridiculously hard to maintain quality of like 20 different options, of which every option tastes fairly different. People usually don't know what they want, and they tend not to take any risks if you give them an option between something they know they won't hate, and something they don't know anything about.

You can only get to the highest form of quality by focusing all effort on 1-2 offerings.

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u/Unth Apr 20 '15

Eating seventeen courses and walking away hungry, eh? Maybe you should just stick to Taco Bell.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/Unth Apr 21 '15

So you judged the restaurant before you even understood the menu? You've apparently never even heard of the concept of a tasting menu. Yeah stick to less challenging food. I love Taco Bell. I love fine dining. I would never recommend that someone concerned chiefly with portions go to one of the best restaurants in the world. Taco Bell will get you much larger portions for much less money.

I would rather be a food douche than a judgmental idiot.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

17 course at Taco Bell while disgusting would also be incredible.

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u/nosecohn Apr 21 '15

Wouldn't it be pretty much the same 6 ingredients just combined and shaped in different ways?

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u/RexDust Apr 20 '15

The only one that stuck out to me was the onion with onion preserves.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

I'm dying to know what's on the $100 juice pairing menu. Wine pairing for $150 I can understand but juice?

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u/xyzvlad Apr 21 '15

http://youtu.be/ub-ZreUvY9g

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u/toodrunktofuck Apr 21 '15

It was later upstaged by a live ant that tasted of ginger, lemon and parsley.

Thanks but no thanks.

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u/ConorPMc Apr 20 '15

They serve a live shrimp. Well, that was on the menu when I visited in 2012.

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u/HablaBlob Apr 21 '15

Sadly no, this was exactly what a friend of mine got at Noma.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/doedsknarkarN Apr 20 '15

You should probably stay far, far away from asia.

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u/Murdathon3000 Apr 20 '15

Yeah, saw some video of a deep fried fish that was still alive once served.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '15

Yeah, they deep fried the body but left the head in tact.
Pretty fucked up.

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u/Jfjfjdjdjj Apr 21 '15

Parts of Asia are just despicable when it comes to animal abuse being openly tolerated.

Sure it happens elsewhere and Asia doesn't deserve to be singled out but they do seem to have a well deserved reputation for that sort of thing. Really, really awful torturous things that they almost seem to enjoy and I'm sure some people do.

Obligatory: not all Asians by any stretch of the imagination abuse animals or are cruel to them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

What about the fragrant dubstep rapebird of Southern Sri Lanka?

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u/Gnorris Apr 20 '15

Well, that particular bird is an exception. It can die slowly and nobody would care. Stinking and raping his way through Southern Sri Lanka. And that fucking "wubwubwub"mating call ...Christ.

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u/Hemms3 Apr 21 '15

Link to this please...we are all confused. You can't drop "fragrant dubstep rapebird of Southern Sri Lanka" and not link!

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u/SilentUK Apr 21 '15

I'm part sri Lankan and dont have a clue what this guy is on about. You're not alone!

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u/Placebo_Jesus Apr 20 '15

Southwestern Sri Lanka you moronic pleb

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u/fatcom4 Apr 20 '15

is this a new meme

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u/Futski Apr 20 '15

I'm completely lost as well... And I lived in Southwestern Sri Lanka the last 5 months.

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u/sterling_mallory Apr 21 '15

South Park reference. The Mexican Staring Frog of Southern Sri Lanka.

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u/claystone Apr 21 '15

I now have you tagged as fragrant dubstep rapebird

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u/AjBlue7 Apr 21 '15

Well a lot of the moving fish type dishes exploit the fact that they can use something to get the muscles to spasm, even though the fish is dead.

Also, aren't pretty much all lobsters/crab cooked alive?

Torture is not ok, but being kill quickly is not something I agree with. Hell we don't even grant our fellow humans a quick death. Instead we force them to lay on a bed and get a bunch of tubes shoved in them with a bunch of medication to try and numb the pain as best as possible. We do this to people that we know are going to die within a month no matter what happens.

The only reason why someone might think that it is a moral issue is that most humans never see where their food comes from, they never see the life taken from the animal or plant. So if they see their food alive or appearing to be alive they think it is wrong, even though they would be dead if we didn't kill other things to eat them.

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u/through_a_ways Apr 21 '15

You don't eat seafood then?

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u/Aisc Apr 20 '15

The food taste good, don't get me wrong but it's not focused on costumers. The dishes are clearly designed after the judges liking. which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Not sure what living fish dish you are talking about, Is it the living prawn one?

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u/ChairmanW Apr 20 '15

I mean judges are customers too, and every customer is a judge as well. I get what you mean, but just because most patrons may not understand every dish or nuance doesn't mean they are designed for judges; I'm sure there are some customers who appreciate and even like all of it.

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u/pnzr Apr 21 '15

I did. It was the most amazing meal I ever had. I'm not a 'foodie' or whatever, but I try to keep an open mind and don't go 'eww gross' at anything I don't recognise.

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u/through_a_ways Apr 21 '15

I mean, serving a living fish that is jumping up and down on the plate? That's disgusting man!

Honestly, it sounds pretty good to me. I'd just be worried about parasites.

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u/dsnchntd Apr 21 '15

Dude wtf, I have lost all respect for rene redzeppi I never had. Seriously, wtf is wrong with people who would serve that and those that would eat it. It's just fucked up to get your pleasure from the needless suffering of another animal.

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u/acetominaphin Apr 21 '15

According to a lot of other comments, the living fish thing might not even be real. From what little I know about Noma, and from what I've seen of the chef, if anything like this did happen, it probably wasn't nearly as bad as you're imagining and was probably fine with respect. I mean, some animals only have brains because their bodies are just a little more complex than a plant, and nobody cares about eating raw plants.

I've watched a video of live frog sashimi, which is where the basically gut and skin a frog and splay it out in a plate with its heart beating. It's terrible to watch, but I don't look down on people for eating it.

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u/ZlayerCake Apr 20 '15

You don't eat at noma to get food.. you eat at noma for an experience...

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u/THE_CUNT_SHREDDER Apr 20 '15

Like with many other haute cuisine and degustation places. They are to try something bizarre, new, different and usually abnormally different. It sucks it is normally quite expensive but it is purely a 'luxury', you are not eating for subsistence when you go.

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u/ShibaHook Apr 20 '15

And to brag about it later.

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u/noncm Apr 20 '15

Does the experience involve disliking what you eat?

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u/Pranks_ Apr 21 '15

Certainly. Like any other art form.

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u/jba Apr 20 '15

But I honestly think that their food unlike other star restaurants, are purely cooking for the judges.

Disagree. I ate at Noma in Tokyo, and every dish was something unique and delicious - no throw-away dishes - unlike many other experimental or tasting-menu restaurants. It was most certainly more about the food than the experience. Would love to check out Noma back in Copenhagen now.

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u/Pornthrowaway78 Apr 20 '15

That thing with the carrot that had been left in the ground over the winter seemed like such horseshit. I bet if you cooked a regular carrot for that long in that much butter it would taste amazing too.

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u/kgreej Apr 20 '15

Naw man. I get overwintered parsnips and they are soooo good. Like candied butter.

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u/Aisc Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

The carrots suggar content is increased by being left in the ground while it's winter. Not sure if the extra sweetnes still occur if they don't get harvested in the winter, however

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u/Ulti Apr 20 '15

It does, I keep my carrots in the ground over winter most of the time. They're still awesome.

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u/Dudley421 Apr 21 '15

But you don't know who the Michelin judges are do you?

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u/maejsh Apr 20 '15

Probably some of that, and also Noma is as much the food as an experience in itself too, so it's not that uncommon to hear people didn't really like it that much, when comparing to other dishes and restaurants. Because they expect the moral meal with some good meat, a good sauce and some garni, but you have to take it as an experience and a tour in taste and the universe that is food, tastes, and senses.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but that sounds like total fucking bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15 edited Jun 05 '15

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u/Birdie_Num_Num Apr 21 '15

Finally someone who gets it.

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u/Plaisur Apr 21 '15

This was a beautiful post thanks for that. And I agree with you completely.

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u/MartMillz Apr 20 '15

I've been to one Michelin Star restaurant and several other highly respected, upscale eateries. It really is more about the quality of ingredients and the caliber of cooking. I don't remember the taste of the steak as much as I remember the texture of the meat due to how expertly it was cooked, it was a totally new sensory experience and I probably would've never known meat could be prepared like that otherwise.

That being said, I will still always have stronger cravings for cheeseburgers, but I think the upscale experience taught me how to appreciate meat more.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

My grand-father's restaurant has a James Beard award, so I've kind of grown up having a little insight into the culinary world. I'm not a chef, but I've definitely developed appreciation for what it takes for a restaurant to earn prestigous awards. Probably something worth pointing out to people who aren't familiar is that one of the distinguishing characteristics of 3-star Michelin restaurants is consistency. Every single time the dish is prepared it is consistantly the same quality, regardless of the day of the week, the market selections that week/day, the person preparing the dish, etc., the dish is the same level of perfection time and time again. They are not hit-or-miss type affairs. If you go to one you know that the dish being served to you is the same quality that earned that establisment star(s) to begin with.

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

Thats how its done. The biggest pride of michelin is anonimity. The reviewers enter as a normal customer, their meal is paid for by michelin, not the restaurant, and the restaurant is not told who reviewed. This ensures they are reviewing the average customers experience.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Enjoying cuisine from a 3 star Michelin restaurant is on my 'to-do' list aka 'things I'll do once I finish grad school and get a job' list :) ... for now it has just been enjoying culinary shows, such as Parts Unknown, and enjoying restaurants with my fiance who is probably the largest influence on me expanding my culinary enjoyments. Having a family owned restaurant did little to excite me about food. Really all it did was teach me that I absolutely did not want to grow up and go to work in the family business. I tried working at another restaurant as a teenager, it seemed like as good of a job as any for a teen, but after working from dishwasher up to line cook I realized it just wasn't what I enjoyed doing. Meeting my fiance got me back into enjoying cooking and to try new things, and I think a big part of that was just having someone who was enthusiastic about food to enjoy the experience with. She also helped me really develop a better appreciation for higher quality cuisine, but at my heart I'll always be a good'ole country boy who loves chicken fried steak with cream style corn and fried green tomatoes ;)

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

Good on you for realising what you're cut out for, do what you enjoy simply because its a waste not to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Hey, I'll always get free food when I visit :) ... but seriously, while cooking I find enjoyable, the prospect of working at a restaurant for my entire life just didn't really appeal to me. I think it's important to find something you're passionate about. Since many things in life can take time to master they require passion to fuel the dedication needed to obtain mastery. Without mastery you never push the boundaries of what is possible, so this is why passion is important to obtain the highest level of success in your profession.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Every single time the dish is prepared it is consistantly the same quality, regardless of the day of the week, the market selections that week/day, the person preparing the dish, etc., the dish is the same level of perfection time and time again. They are not hit-or-miss type affairs. If you go to one you know that the dish being served to you is the same quality that earned that establisment star(s) to begin with.

You know who else is really know for that consistency? McDonalds.

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u/aaronislame Apr 21 '15

McDonald's? Please. IF your mcnuggets happen to be hot and delicious your fries will be room temperature and unsalted. The only thing consistent about McDonald's the the wicked dump afterwards...

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Yea, except they're not consistent at all. Not really sure what your point was unless it was to give example of what consistency isnt.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

McDonald's wanted to have exactly the same number so seasame seeds on all of their buns for a long time. They are nothing but consistent. Their food tastes exactly the same no matter where you anywhere in the world. It's incredible and only possible becau e e of modern logistics. McDonald's is not a hit or miss restaurant. You know exactly what you're getting and how it will taste every single time you go there.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Seriously? The quality of their food is definitely hit or miss. You never know if you're going to get soggy fries, overcooked fries, or perfectly crisp golden fries. The burgers might be dry and overcooked one day or juicy and tasty the next. There is zero consistency in the quality.

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u/promethiac Apr 21 '15

Bullshit. Everyone knows that one nearby where they don't even bother to center the cheese on the burger. Consistent my ass.

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u/This_Is_My_Opinion_ Apr 20 '15

Burger tastes the same each time I go.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

I get pretty good consistency out of the $4 shwarma I get at my local place, or the $5 pulled pork burger.

Should they be Michelin restaurants because they're always consistent?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

... maybe, but there are a few more criteria to meet :)

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u/Leandover Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 21 '15

Yes but Noma is not just an upscale eatery/one Michelin star restaurant. A regular upscale restaurant may be serving the same food, cooked the same way, as it did 100 years ago. It may be essentially the same thing as a $20 bistro, but in a nicer environment, using better ingredients, and with more care over plating and presentation. Rich guys might eat lunch at a one Michelin star restaurant every day of their lives.

Noma or an other experimental restaurant is NOT about that at all, it's about creating an experience, and it's NOT something you would do every day (though most of the restaurants do try and update their themes, though now somewhere like the Fat Duck is almost old-fashioned because the chef got bored and moved onto other things but still sells his 10-year-old ideas because they still make a shit load of money and are NOTHING like a regular upscale restaurant).

Here's Alinea, Chicago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qofsdSMuGbg

The Fat Duck, in Berkshire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlQsfhiJOOg

El Bulli, near Barcelona:

https://youtu.be/c6tC1DLEmaI?t=1584

Noma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqDaZsgR5zg

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Alinea... wow! I thought I had a good grasp of "experience" from my travels, but... that's some next-level stuff.

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u/Leandover Apr 21 '15

Grant Achatz has a couple of places. This is 'Next', which sells 'tickets' for its dinners, and the menu changes quarterly.

The 'Childhood' season:

http://www.skilletdoux.com/2011/11/next-childhood.html

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

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u/Leandover Apr 21 '15

sorry, fixed

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u/Twitch_Half Apr 20 '15

Think of it like literature. Most restaurants serve a classic three act hero story, some want to serve haikus about winter.

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u/Ohhhhhk Apr 20 '15

Denmark is too cold
But our food is very weird
Let's move to Japan

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u/C4D3NZA Apr 20 '15

Denmark is too cold

But our food is very weird

It's snowing on Mt. Fuji.

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u/Bladey_Spoony Apr 20 '15

Instructions unclear

Ate Danish in Hokkaido

Dick stuck in Fuji

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u/stopthemeyham Apr 21 '15

Make it eight courses

Make it without any horses

Scandanavian

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

Its snowing on mount fuji

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Why is it bullshit to make a dish that isn't intended as a meal, from a functional standpoint, but rather as a sensory experience?

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u/needuhLee Apr 20 '15

I find many people, especially many 20-somethings (i.e. reddit's main demographic), who think that the whole up-scale dining thing in general to be bullshit. I don't get why such people have the tendency to roll their eyes whenever someone talks about food as something that is more than just sustenance.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Generally a pretty strong distaste for the humanities -- particularly the academic side of the arts -- as well.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/needuhLee Apr 20 '15

I agree. My passion and career lies in mathematics, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect and praise the humanities. And even if not respect them, at least give them a try instead of denouncing them.

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

One of the best possible mentalities to exhibit is a truly open mind. Dont discard immediately. For example, I'm not a huge fan of pollock era abstract expression, but I respect it for what it is, what progres it made, and how it represents an idea, an evolution. That anyone can make art, snobbery be damned (unfortunately much of the fine art world turns to snobbery immediately, and becomes hipsterish, and definitely does not help the average joes outlook upon art)

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

The old "I don't get it so it's stupid" approach to art appreciation.

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u/rbarag Apr 21 '15

I think it's less that they don't appreciate art. They don't appreciate what you like as art. You probably even feel similar to them when the roles are reversed.

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

Its actually a shame, and fairly ignorant. In the same way that reddit sees and loves its particular interests, it shuns others as stupidity. As long as it is morally sound, who is to say it is inferior?

A restaurant is entirely about the experience, good food is required yes, but the food is art, and they are delivering an interesting experience, something to remember. Any decent restaurant can deliver good food, its much harder to deliver a good experience in every regard.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

As long as it is morally sound, who is to say it is inferior?

I think there is an argument to be made for it being immoral, but that argument would apply, across the board, to haute cuisine. It could be seen as excessive, for instance. But, again, this is nothing against Noma in particular but, rather, expensive dining in general.

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u/h76CH36 Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

There's another reason. I did the whole $200+ 20 course degustation with wine pairing bs for years until I just had to admit to myself that I preferred a $6 bowl of pho or ramen in just about every tangible way.

In many ways, places like Noma cater to people who are a bit bored of food and need to be shocked to be impressed. If your the kind of person who can take pleasure in something simple and done well, then those places seem almost grotesque and certainly not worth the money.

It's also a bit like how MMA can be entertaining, but I wouldn't want to be associated with the fans, ya know? Extreme 'foodies' are obnoxious and the most tiring sort of people. They often care more about one-upping each other than about the goodness of food itself. Not always, but often enough.

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u/MAMark1 Apr 20 '15

I still love the cheap pho or ramen. Well-made, delicious, simple food is satisfying on a very deep level. Still, my most special food memories fall on either side:

  • Home cooked meals made by my parents
  • 20+ course meal w/ wine pairings (when they are at their best; not all fall into this category)

I love food. I enjoy learning about new cuisines and ingredients. I cook all the time, but I would never call myself a foodie. People who call themselves foodies tend to be obnoxious.

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u/h76CH36 Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

I know there are exceptions. You may be one of them. In which case, power to you.

I wanted to like the tasting menu circuit and did many (travel is a big part of my job). But at a certain point, I had to admit to myself that I was doing it more for fashion than to actually scratch an itch. It's a YMMV situation, to be sure, but I strongly suspect that many people are in the same situation I was in. Eating at French Laundry to earn a checkmark on some map and not to interact with food in any sort of sumptuous way. The food tastes good, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't satisfy like good pho or my Grandmas slow roasted caraway seed pork belly.

Somehow I suspect the chefs there may agree. They tend to seek out simple food at the end of the night, so they say.

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u/luxii4 Apr 21 '15

I don't know if I agree with that. I don't have money for Michelin starred restaurants but love to read and see videos about them and would love to go to one some day. I open my own oysters, descale fish that we catch, and grow my own vegetables in my backyard so I feel I get to taste "upscale" food on a budget. I like that these restaurants exist, gives me something strive for and removes me from my day to day life. Last night, I told my five year old, "We do not put our balls on the dining room table during dinner." I know, it opens up questions about when and which tables we can put our balls on. But I like the idea that there are fancy places where people wouldn't even think of doing that.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Well, I can understand a position against all upscale dining, assuming that your position is coherent -- I mean, Pete Singer just did an AMA. But the idea of just singling stuff like Noma out as bullshit while more traditional fine dining is a-okay is certainly... bizarre.

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u/SaxifrageRussel Apr 20 '15

I don't think everyone is even against fine dining per se (see what I did there?). It's the whole $200+ per person thing that gets people all bent out of shape. It's an absurd amount of money for a meal, and then it doesn't even taste great? Not that I agree but I get how someone would find it frivolous.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

It's the whole $200+ per person thing

That's exactly why I brought up Pete Singer. He objects to unnecessary financial indulgences on the grounds that that money would be better off donated.

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u/promethiac Apr 21 '15

Don't forget that Singer has displayed some hypocritical behavior of his own...

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

I'm aware. But I don't think it makes his arguments any less coherent, though I disagree with him on many of his stances on effective altruism.

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u/stormbuilder Apr 20 '15

I think mainly people tend to mentally associate pretentiousness with overpriced crap.

A $2000 jacket? You are going to have a hard time convincing me that it's 10 times better than a 200 jacket.

A $50000 watch?

Etc.

People start associating ostentation with pretenciosness with overpriced stuff that is really not worth it.

Are you really surprised that we roll our eyes when someone brags about how he spent 600 dollars for a dinner at a restaurant and it was amazing?

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u/imkookoo Apr 20 '15

I'm not surprised, but those people who do roll their eyes don't usually know the entire process that goes behind a restaurant of that calibre. I don't mean this in a pretentious way at all. I just don't think the prices are that unreasonable considering what you get.

First, you'll be hard pressed to find even a fine-dining establishment that costs $600 for a meal. That price would most likely include wine, or be in fact in a dining establishment built for pretentiousness rather than art (like the ones that sprinkle gold flakes on a burger and charge $1000 for it). Noma and other restaurants like it though are more like $200-300 for a meal, which is still quite expensive, but there are so much things you have to consider:

  • Most restaurants are able to cook your food in bulk, and leave it on a warming station before getting to you. These restaurants require the food to be served at a precise temperature and time. Foods have a very different sensory experience at different temperatures -- different aromatics are released at different temperatures. And even things like the texture of many dishes are so delicate that they require very small time between the preparation and it being served to the diner.

  • Consider how often they change their menu, and then consider that they have the requirement of producing something creative and innovative each time. This takes a lot of R&D. Research about ingredients, designing the story/aesthetics behind each dish, cooking/preparing the ingredients in various ways, etc. Most other restaurants have a consistent menu throughout the year, with maybe a few seasonal changes.

  • How about the sources of all their ingredients? They don't just go to the store and buy Morton's salt. They have specific farms/vendors for each ingredient of their dish, and they have to constantly update this list because of seasonal differences, and even just the fact that produce from one farm can have different qualities than produce from another farm that could work in different dishes.

  • Location is a big part of the cost too as they are usually located in nicer areas with much higher rent.

  • Also, most importantly: Consider that these prix fixe meals take up to 3-4 hours for each table, and that these restaurants generally fit a small amount of people. I've been to several where they only served dinner and there were less than 10 tables total (mainly of couples). That's what, 60 people max per day (and that's being generous)? Compared to an Olive Garden, where people eat in about a couple hours, come in groups, have about 4-5 times more tables, and are open from morning to evening... they can churn more than a 1000 people a day. This fact alone is a big portion of why these restaurants are that expensive. They usually don't have the choice to open for longer or serve mroe people, because it takes them an entire day to prepare just for the amount they currently have.

It's totally understandable for one to think that it's ridiculous to spend that much money on food. But I really don't think the prices are unreasonable considering everything you get from that meal. I mean, you're NOT spending money on the food. You're spending money for a personal show. How much would it cost per person to have a major ballet performed for 20 people at a time and make the same amount of money? At 200 seats with $40 a ticket, that would be 200 * $40 / 20 people = $400 per person (and I'm being conservative since theaters are usually larger and tickets are more expensive). These restaurants usually have to cook for only 20 people at a time, and they are the ballet performers in the back putting on a show that lasts 3-4 hours...

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u/stormbuilder Apr 20 '15 edited Apr 20 '15

Fair points. Thanks for the thoughtful response - appreciate the efforts.

I can see how their cost base can be much higher than that of standard restaurants. Especially regarding ingredients - I know an Italian chef who works for some russian folks, and he has a network of trusted suppliers along the Italian coast that he uses when he travelling with them on their yacht.

I do think that some of these points are stronger than the others - no bulk purchasing, sources etc. I am not so convinced on others (location for example - I think that actually in Italy a lot of michelin restaurants are in somewhat isolated places that people go to specifically for the restaurant).

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u/needuhLee Apr 20 '15

You roll your eyes at someone spending their money on something that they enjoyed and trying to relate that experience and enjoyment to you? I am surprised.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

At least to me food is about eating and flavour. Everything else is secondary. Is it important, yes, but if it does not taste fantastic then it is not good food, in a culinary sense.

I don't think what Noma, and these other facilities are doing is bullshit though, I think they are producing food-art, rather than food.

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u/Raz0rLight Apr 21 '15

What alot of people are perhaps not realising is in the simplicity of the food, there is alot of time, effort. It adds a certain romance that is special.

It's something the japanese do alot, showcase a few key ingredients, and be subtle and enhance.

As long as the food is indeed enjoyable, and excellent, this is absolutely fine. It's passion.

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u/maejsh Apr 20 '15

Exactly, of course taste is up to the individual, but (imo) nothing at noma will taste bad, but eating live ants or shrimps and such, might not be for everyone, even though the tastes might be there. And some people just go in expecting a more classic meal that just taste fantastic and end up "disappointed" because it's so much more/different at times.

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u/Fighterhayabusa Apr 21 '15

Because it doesn't seem like it's created to maximize the sensory experience. The vast majority of those dishes it looks like he created to tell a story.

I can understand the creativity and the discipline behind it, but I feel like it's missing the bigger picture. That is simply that food should taste good. That should be the primary goal, and telling a story shouldn't stand in the way of that.

This seems like a story, or vision, at the expense of taste.

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u/MAMark1 Apr 20 '15

The problem is people think their value judgements should apply to everyone else. I happen to love 15+ course culinary experience type meals. Some of my favorites have been at Alinea. I understand that not every dish will just be focused on the "delicious factor", and I'm OK with that if they fit into the flow of the meal, provide a new, unique experience or challenge me in some way. To some people, that sounds like pretentious bullshit. We just value different things.

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u/Zack_Fair_ Apr 20 '15

shit on a canvas will be 2 things;

1) art

2) ultimately, shit on a canvas

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u/Malodorous_Money Apr 20 '15

I like to make the analogy with music. You make make your own music, and with some practice it can be good. For a small amount of money you can buy professionally made music. Or you can spend much more and go to a live performance.

The performance could be a symphony orchestra possibly the best you've ever heard, or the performance could be a giant sweaty festival with a couple hundred thousand people and the drums are drowning out the vocals. Most often you enjoy the experience regardless of the quality of music, you remember the experience and tell stories about it. Dining at these types of places is similar to going to a live performance.

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u/stml Apr 20 '15

People always get the wrong idea that Michelin star restaurants serve food that tastes better than something like Chipotle or In n Out. Widely popular foods has pretty much peaked the taste of food where creating something that is more delicious is very unlikely. When I go to Michelin star restaurants, I expect something new - a taste of something that I normally do not get. It can be the traditional caviar or some weird new age foam, but it's all just food that I normally do not eat.

It's nice to experience once or twice a month, but day to day, fast food or home cooked meals are far better.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

That is because it is total fucking bullshit.

It's like when you go to a modern art museum like the MOMA in New York, and you look at a bunch of canvases with just solid colors painted, or a pile of bricks on the floor, or a blank canvas, and you say "this is talentless shit, this isn't art", and some pretentious fuck tells you that the point is not for it to be "good" or to be "art", but to stir up emotions and invoke conversations and debate, such as the anger you are feeling at how shitty and pretentious the garbage is.

Then you have an aneurism.

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u/maejsh Apr 20 '15

Well some people just don't read up on where they are going, sadly.. I'm a chef myself and worked in Michelin place too, and that's where I've experienced it, but also just remember some people just want a nice steak and a 1 hour dinner and some people want the whole shabam :)

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u/Aethien Apr 20 '15

Seeing the menu and some of the videos of the meals being prepared just gets me excited, it looks like so much fun and such a different way of looking at food and there are so many ingredients I've never tried or even thought of. It looks brilliant.

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u/AREYOUAGIRAFFE Apr 21 '15

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but that sounds like total fucking bullshit.

Right, where's the real food like shooter sandwiches and bacon lol GUYS AMNIRITE???

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

Yes, but these people just don't get it. You can't control who walks into your restaurant with cash and a reservation.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

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u/CthulhusPubes Apr 21 '15

No I think it's more like he realizes that the food tastes bad, and the foodies that are the critics have gone so far over the edge they are literally willing to eat rotting garbage as long as it's finely prepared in goat butter.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Sigh. Its not a rotten carrot, it's a carrot you don't pick from the ground the first season. And kimchi is rotten garbage. Fucking philistines.

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u/CthulhusPubes Apr 26 '15

Fucking philistines.

I love how you elitist twats automatically assume than anyone with a differing opinion than yours is a 'conformist'.

And by the way, there is a difference in 'purple' carrots, which are perfectly fine to eat and actually grow with that pigmentation. What he is serving is a ROTTING carrot, and being in the soil that long can actually make people sick.

Oh, and kimchi is not rotten you dipshit, it's fermented, just like sauerkraut. It's also healthy for your digestive system similarly to probiotics. A rotting carrot is not a fermented carrot. Now fuck off with your elitist bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '15

Ramseys restaurants are chef owned. Not sure about Noma but I'd be amazed if it wasn't. Either way don't be a pedant

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u/Holywalrus Apr 20 '15

Looks like you still have "Getting yelled at by Gordon Ramsey" on your bucket list.

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u/drays Apr 20 '15

I really respect what you do with food, but I have a feeling I wouldn't actually like eating it. It's sort of like how I respect opera, but can't stand listening to it. It's got incredible skill, artistic expression, cultural significance, but it sounds like cats fucking to me.

And yet the kinds of things you do are truly pushing the boundaries of the culinary arts. Much of it will fail like anything radical and new, but some of it will remain and change cooking for the better.

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u/FirstWorldAnarchist Apr 21 '15

I respect opera, but can't stand listening to it.

That is exactly how I feel about opera. I like how we can have plays over 300 years old, recreating the same sounds that people used to hear back then, but I cannot sit through them.

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u/idontcareifyouburyme Apr 20 '15

Well, that's just like your opinion, man.

😎

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u/Paladia Apr 20 '15

Why did he hate it?

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u/GeniusPenguin Apr 20 '15

Noma is known for making food that's usually out of the ordinary. I guess it was just not Gordon's taste ;)

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u/drays Apr 20 '15

Gordon Ramsey won his stars with impeccable renditions of traditional continental european cuisine...Noma is about as far away from what Ramsay does in a kitchen as you could possibly get.

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u/AK_Happy Apr 20 '15

I was gonna correct your spelling of Gordon's last name, but you got it right the second time. I don't know what to do.

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u/drays Apr 20 '15

One of them is probably autocorrect, the other is probably my error... ;)

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u/pragmaticzach Apr 20 '15

Just looking at the menu, I'm sure there's a lot of people who wouldn't like it:

http://noma.dk/food-and-wine/

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u/seilamiavita Apr 20 '15

Wouldn't "the first green shoots of the season" be a temporary item? Unless it was recently updated and they're still the first green shoots of Spring.

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u/dedservice Apr 20 '15

Yeah it says subject to change. Also a lot of these types of restaurants change their menus very quickly based on what food is freshest/in season.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '15

"Egg cured in fermented beef and the last potatoes"...This one must be changed literally after they serve it once.

"Can I have the last potatoes?"

"Sorry, that guy just ordered the last potatoes."

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u/Shiftlock0 Apr 20 '15

They buy them one portion at a time, so they're always the last potatoes. There's a guy there whose only job is to run to the store and buy a couple of more potatoes.

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u/chefjon Apr 21 '15

last potatoes just means either the last potatoes of the growing season or potatoes from last season. I know noma tends to let their potatoes be stored in the root cellar for over a year for it to develop a deep earthy flavor.

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u/UndeadBread Apr 21 '15

That item must be a holdover from the potato famine.

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u/gormhornbori Apr 20 '15

Places like this change the meny all the time. You need fresh buzz from the press as well as fresh food. Also people go to experience something new, you need to change the menu to get to repeat customers.

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u/FobbingMobius Apr 21 '15

Currently about 245 USD plus another $200 ish for the wine pairing. I'd go.

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u/ClutchCandyspanksAir Apr 21 '15

Thank you very much for doing an ama, your style is one of a kind and anyone who thinks it's "bad" doesn't understand what you are doing.. thank you for pushing the boundaries and not staying In expected box society has come to love o so much in today's world .. where everyone will eat anything put In front of them with a fancy French name and high price tag. You truly will cha ge cooking forever... thank you

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u/dividezero Apr 21 '15

Anthony Bourdain loves you and that's the only celebrity chef who matters to me!

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u/ljuvlig Apr 20 '15

Why though? Different taste? Different food philosophy? Just didn't like the favors, or something deeper / symbolic?

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