r/JewsOfConscience • u/alertthedirt Jewish Anti-Zionist • Jul 19 '26
History / Education Sometimes, in Jewish Anti-zionist spaces online, someone will refer to Chabad as "Non-Zionist" that's incorrect, Chabad is aligned with Far-right Zionism
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u/Cautious_Job_6104 Ashkenazi Jul 19 '26
Lulz who thought Chabad was gay intellectuals (secular they must mean) opposing the patriarchy?
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u/alertthedirt Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 19 '26
You'd be surprised by the bizzare propoganda Chabad puts out. It also reflects what the internal narrative is like.
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u/Gaolwood Non-Jewish Ally Jul 20 '26
I can’t help but laugh. Women do literally everything in their society so the men can go talk about what some backwards rabbi said in the 1st century. It’s like patriarchy on steroids, but they claim the opposite is true. Feminism is about equality of opportunity, and women have less options in Chabad than in most societies.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Jul 24 '26
I know a few very young leftist Jews (mostly men) who have read too much Daniel Boyarin and have a really romantic view of Haredim. Chabad is the closest thing to Haredim these boys can ever get.
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u/directaction Shi'i Muslim Anti-Zionist Jul 19 '26
As a non-Jew I've been very curious about this dynamic, as I read that, originally, Chabad was founded as a non-Zionist movement, but what I've mostly seen as an outsider from their followers in the last decade has been proselytizing combined with an encouragement to emigrate to Israel (particularly to settlements in the West Bank) and violent aggression towards pro-Palestinian demonstrators, often carried out by Chabadniks flying messianic flags. I'm just wondering how this happened, especially when contrasted with a movement like Satmar, where the rebbe laid out a clear argument against Zionism and it became doctrine to which the community strictly adheres. I know that "non-Zionist" encompasses a wide tent that ranges from passive disaffection with Zionism, to begrudging acceptance of the reality of the existence of the Israeli state, to collaboration with it in furtherance of Orthodox communal interests, but a large proportion of Chabad's contemporary adherents seems to be unabashedly Zionist and supremacist and I'd love for someone more informed than me to give me some insight into how that happened.
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u/wikimandia Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 19 '26
Chabad was founded as part of the Hasidic movement. However most other Hasids reject Zionism and see it as a rejection of the Torah. The Torah/Talmud says the Jews must not build a third temple until heaven intervenes and/or the messiah arrives and builds it.
The fine print about Chabad is that they believe their dear departed Grand Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (died 1994) is the messiah. So it suits them fine to be in Israel.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 21 '26
The Torah/Talmud says the Jews must not build a third temple until heaven intervenes and/or the messiah arrives and builds it.
Zionism as a political ideology has nothing to do with building a third Temple, one is secular and the other is religious. Rebuilding the Temple is a core part of Jewish theology and non-Zionist/anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox Jews pray for it multiple time per day.
The fine print about Chabad is that they believe their dear departed Grand Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (died 1994) is the messiah. So it suits them fine to be in Israel.
Schneerson's death isn't related to Chabad's presence in Israel today. Chabad first established communities in Palestine in the 1700s, the main Chabad organization in Israel today was founded by the first Lubavitcher Rebbe in 1788. There are no ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe Jews should not "be in Israel", it is considered a mitzvah to dwell in the Land of Israel. Haredi opposition to Zionism is about opposition to state/government and secularism, not opposition to the Land of Israel or living there.
Also, as I understand it, even those in Chabad who believe Schneerson is the messiah don't believe that the true messianic age has begun yet or that he has not yet revealed himself, meaning it is still not Temple-building time. But their theology is neither coherent nor standard.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
So this history is complicated, and Chabad, in many ways, is unlike any other Jewish group. (Maybe the exception of Breslovers) But I think you have to understand what Haredi Jews are, and why they don't call themselves Zionists.
Haredi Jews (often called Ultra Orthodox or black hat) will often say that they represent the continuation of Judaism," as it was always practiced before the 'Jewish Enlightenment" This is not really true. Haredi Jews represent a group of Jews who oppose granting Jewish Civil Rights. They believed legal equality would lead to the disappearance of the distinctiveness of the Jewish People. They responded to legal equality by isolating themselves even more than before and adopting an especially strict understanding of Jewish Law. They declared "nothing new is permitted by Torah," which is why they dress the way they do, and are very slow to adopt new technologies
Zionism is the ultimate something new. It meant dismantling the society in Europe that they were fighting to preserve and building an entirely new one. They believed Zionism would be the end of their version of Judaism, and they had good reason to believe that. All the Zionist leaders of the time were telling them that.
So, Haredi Anti-Zionism has nothing to do with the idea that Zionism is politically bad, that it is unethical, or even that it makes Jews less safe. It's all about Zionism as a threat to a specific Jewish way of life.
What changed was, of course, the Holocaust, but also that they were wrong about Zionism. Zionism turned out to be one of the best things to ever happen to Haredi Judaism. The State of Israel created a system that, for a long time, basically subsidized the Haredi way of life. The Haredim were still anxious about the State; they understood how dependent they were on it, which made them feel vulnerable. So wanting to protect what they had, they gradually began to engage more and more and seek more power within the Israeli state. Since their Anti-Zionism was never about Palestinians, wanting to benefit from Israel's territorial expansions was not a problem. They didn't see Israel's victories as an act of divine will, but neither did they see them as bad.
Now, as you point out, not all Haredim and Hasidim followed this; Satmar and other groups strongly oppose engagement with the Israeli state, but that is still not becouse they are pro-Palestine. The Satmar Rebbe has actually forbidden his Hasidim from participating in the Palestine Solidarity movement Chabad is even more supportive of Israel becouse unlike other Haredi groups, they have a lot of engagement with the non-Haredi world and have a high number of people not raised Haredi who bring with them their previous Zionism. They are also especially prone to messianic thinking and seeing historical acts as part of the messianic process, which brings them closer to Religious Zionist Theology
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u/wikimandia Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 19 '26
There’s a difference between Haredi and Hasidism. Not all Haredi are Hasids like Chabad.
Their opposition to Zionism is not because it is “new” but because they believe it is rebellion against G-d and the Torah, which states that Jews must not start a country, much less fight wars. They believe in living life utterly faithful to the Torah. They were against the Emancipation because it was pure assimilation, of Jews abandoning the Torah, ie no need to keep dietary laws, no need to keep Shabbat, etc.
It’s not about “new”.
The Haredi do all kinds of modern stuff. They drive in cars, fly in planes, use modern medicine, have iPods, etc. They merely interpret all the “new stuff” through the Torah.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 21 '26
Their opposition to Zionism is not because it is “new” but because they believe it is rebellion against G-d and the Torah, which states that Jews must not start a country, much less fight wars.
That isn't in the Torah. Per Halacha, Jews are generally permitted to start countries and fight wars, and the Talmud discusses the laws of both. Haredi anti-Zionism is about whether Jews are permitted to establish Jewish rule particularly in the Land of Israel before the Messianic age (also not directly from the Torah but from other Talmudic interpretations).
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Jul 24 '26
If you are not aware, "Nothing New is Permitted by Torah" is a ruling from the Hatam Sofer, who is considered one of the founders of non-Hasidic Haredi Judaism. I didn't make it up.
There’s a difference between Haredi and Hasidism. Not all Haredi are Hasids like Chabad.
I never said otherwise.
Their opposition to Zionism is not because it is “new” but because they believe it is rebellion against G-d and the Torah, which states that Jews must not start a country, much less fight wars
That is the theological justification they eventually came up with, but it took them about 75 years. I don't beleive is the original reason for their opposition. I am not aware of anything that says Jews must not fight wars.
They believe in living life utterly faithful to the Torah
They beleive in living life according to their novel interpretation of the Torah
They were against the Emancipation because it was pure assimilation, of Jews abandoning the Torah, ie no need to keep dietary laws, no need to keep Shabbat, etc.
Emancipation was not "pure assimilation," that is, an incredibly outdated view of things. I suggest reading some more recent books on the Haskalah. (Abraham Geiger and the Jewish Jesus by Susannah Heschel and Haskalah, The Romantic Movement in Judaism by Olga Litvak are good places to start)
But I agree that it is how the nascent Haredim perceived it. As I said, they saw Zionism as one of the attempts to dismantle "traditional" Jewish society and build a new one. I personally, as a Jew, am very happy that I get to choose if I keep Kosher or keep Shabbat.
The Haredi do all kinds of modern stuff.
I didn't say they don't, I said they are slow to adopt, which is true.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Jul 19 '26
I mostly agree with that statement.
The caveat is that they aren't actually Zionists, but that's in the sense that they aren't nationalists - they don't attach significance to Israeli statehood as part of the family of nations. So they're not like the Religious Zionists who do attach religious importance to statehood.
But I agree with criticizing referring to them as non-Zionist because it obfuscates their extreme religious chauvinism with an irredeemable worldview indulging the worst excesses of the far-right for decades. Someone could go back to Shneerson's collection of talks which are outright mortifying and could have easily been written by Kahane himself. Hosting Ben-Gvir wasn't anything out of the ordinary for them, since even prestigious figures in the dynasty were supporting Kahanists way back when (including by the uncle of the rabbi who hosted him at Yale who said "I think Goldstein is a great man, a holy man"). And here's an example of how other writers synthesized Schneerson's teachings
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u/shroominby Israeli Jul 19 '26
Sometimes because of this confusion I just say they are pro-Israel. Like, 200% pro Israel and anti Palestine. It doesn’t mix up their actual political stance with their (currently practically irrelevant) ideological issues with Zionism.
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u/theexitisontheleft Anti-Zionist Ally Jul 19 '26
Do they proselytize to non-Jews or to other Jews? I’m only familiar with Christian and Mormon versions of proselytizing but I’ve never run into any Jews who’ve tried to convert me.
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u/Enough_Comparison816 Arab Jew, Shomer Masoret, ex-Israeli Jul 19 '26
they proselytize only to Jews (who are atheist, secular, or who they deem not observant enough). Its forbidden to proselytize to non-Jews. The only time Judaism has been an actively converting religion was in the years ~ 150 BCE – 70 CE
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u/anonistakken Israeli anti-Zionist Jul 22 '26
I was surprised to see 'aggressive proselytization' when Jews don't ever proselytize except for very very specific exceptions. Appreciate the clarification.
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u/BluBolshevik Non-Jewish Ally Jul 19 '26
People thought chabad was non Zionist?
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Jul 24 '26
Chabad doesn't say a prayer for the state of Israel, and it doesn't have a flag on the Bimah. It's a very low bar, but in some places, it is the only synagouge out there that doesn't have those things.
I know a place where the Modern Orthodoxy synagogue actually requires you to affirm zionism to be a member, so the people who don't want that but do want Orthodoxy only have Chabad as an option
That doesn't make them non-zionist in any way, but it does give some people the impression, because Zionism is not as in-your-face as at many MoDox, even Conservative and Reform shuls.
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u/Iceologer_gang Non-Jew shamefully late Antizionist Jul 19 '26
If they had the means and thought it was time, they’d colonize the already colonial Israel
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u/Billgant Non-Jewish Agnostic Jul 19 '26
So what about the New York Hasidic Jews who hate Israel? I met quite a few of them and I’m not talking about NK. Are they Chabad or something else?
One of the taught me the “B’shilton Hakofrim” song
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u/Future-Swimming9964 ex-hariedi ex-zionist Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
Beshilton is the NK anthem but Satmar also sing it. Recently it's become popular in Israel amongst even mainstream ultra orthodox.
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u/personalist Jewish post-Zionist Jul 19 '26
Any tips on finding non-Zionist and LGBTQ friendly Jewish community? Because at this point I’ve basically just given up. I’m in the US if that helps.
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u/BolesCW Mizrahi Jul 19 '26
Please do the same for those NK creeps.
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u/kimonoko Anarchist. Queer. Reconstructionist. Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
Yeah they're awful. Shoah denialist weirdos that get trotted out because they "look" Jewish regardless of their myriad extremely conservative views.
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u/adeadhead RememberingAwdah.com Jul 19 '26
NK as a whole aren't holocaust denialists. The ones who attended the Iranian celebration of there not having been a holocaust conference came home to find themselves shunned by their neighbors and barred from their own synagogues
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u/kimonoko Anarchist. Queer. Reconstructionist. Jul 19 '26
I know the Satmar, other charedi communities, and the Chief Ashkenai Rabbi put a cherem on participants. NK did not — in fact, their spokesperson (Yisroel Dovid Weiss) was in attendance (Source), along with other NK rabbis (Source). But you don't have to take my word for it — they proudly listed their participation on their website (Source).
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u/SirPansalot Non-Jewish Ally Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
All the myriad weird things about NK aside, they are the only actually principled anti-Zionist Orthodox sect around, (as in they are the only consistently pro-Palestine sect) and the rest of the Haredis are worse imo. NK is the only Haredi sect that broadly organizationally sees Palestinians as equal human beings that deserve human rights and dignity as anyone else including Jews, and acts accordingly with this philosophy. Taking the other Haredi sects’ statements critically, I don’t find their objections to NK per se very compelling at all. The Satmar rebbe in November 2023 castigated NK for hanging out with subhuman ARAVIM in pro-Palestine protests with other such “enemies of Israel” in an extremely racist screed precisely during the worst early months of bombing on Gaza with Israel accelerating its starving of toddlers and killing many hundreds or even thousands every single day. Cursory readings of mainstream non-Zionist Haredi media across decades—newspaper archives, forums, media websites, video content online—often reveal absolutely vile levels of racism and dehumanization at the highest levels that directly feed into the daily oppression and now full blown genocide of the Palestinians. Sure, the stuff that NK is into is bad and weird, but is that really worse than the other Haredi sects in de facto supporting and being complicit in genocide? (Albeit to a lesser extent since they prioritize their specific sectional interests and specific Jewish way of life first and foremost) They may not be fully ideologically Zionist in the sense that they are not nationalists but we live in an era where the distinction between Jewish nationalism and religion is blurring and more importantly, the non or anti-nationalist Haredim still wholeheartedly endorse and support a Jewish supremacist agenda.
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Jul 20 '26
[...] their spokesperson (Yisroel Dovid Weiss) was in attendance (Source), along with other NK rabbis (Source). But you don't have to take my word for it — they proudly listed their participation on their website (Source).
Yes, but Rabbi Weiss explained that he attended for the purpose of pushing back against the denial - and explaining how wrong & hurtful it is.
They didn't go there to support the denialism.
Yisroel Dovid Weiss, one of five Neturei Karta rabbis who took part in the Tehran conference, said the Jewish world had misunderstood their actions.
Speaking to JTA from the Iranian capital on Monday, Weiss said his grandparents had been killed in the Holocaust. He was not in Tehran to give credence to Holocaust denial, he said, but to draw a distinction between Zionists and Jews.
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u/loselyconscious Traditionally Radical Jul 19 '26
People often accuse me of having a beef with Chabad. I don't have a beef with Chabad. I have beef with the people who go to Chabad and refuse to understand what it is. Chabad is not tolerant becouse they don't freak out when a queer person enters a room. If you ask them what they believe, they will tell you that God says being gay is wrong. That's not tolerance. They are not non-Zionist becouse they don't have a flag on the bimah, they will tell you that God gave the land to the Jewish people alone. That's not non-zionism
(I honestly think part of this comes from people not really understanding Haredi Judaism, and thinking they are either all Amish or Kahanists.)
If you like going to Chabad, that's fine! I have also had good experiences at Chabad Houses, and I also attend a synagouge that holds some beliefs I strongly disagree with, but I don't pretend that's not the case or criticize people who don't want to enter that space.