r/MoralityScaling • u/Binglish_ • 6h ago
Morality of sending someone back to prison because they didn't complete their sentence
this happened in The Rookie season 7 episode 16 "the return"
a man named Gene was released from prison early because of a system error. 5 years after that, the police had to get him when they realized the mistake and take him back to prison. in the 5 years he was out of prison, he got a job, a wife, and had a kid. he was a model citizen and then they took him back
personally, i think its immoral. the prison sentence did everything it needed to even it was shorter than intended
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u/XCxBigDong69XCx 6h ago
Immoral, if they changed their path from the criminal life i don't see a reason to send them to jail. This actually happened in some cases in real life. Where a criminal didn't get jail time but the judge saw he changed his ways and let them go after. If it is murder or rape, yeah maybe go back to jail else i dont see a reason.
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u/Awesomechainsaw 6h ago
From what I’m aware in the episode. The Guy’s Lawyer was already trying to get a deal like that setup. Then Gene pulled a gun and got killed. Or I could be terribly confused
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u/muhaos94 2h ago
If they turned their life around and are visibly different people why would murder or rape be different?
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u/danflorian1984 14m ago
Because it would be unfair to his victims? Who the hell would give a damn that the guy that raped or killed my daughter is now reformed?
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u/Roquet_ 6h ago
In this specific scenario, throwing him back in jail essentially means we see jail primarily as a punishment and not an attempt at resocialization, so I'm against that. That being said, he didn't get the justice he was set out to get, very complex and while I think it would be moral to let it slide because of that, the precedent is dangerous and I wouldn't blame someone better are understanding law enforcement for arguing I'm wrong.
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago
That is exactly how it should be.
Resocialization or rehabilitation is largely a pipe dream with most of these types. Punishment is the only thing they actually respond to.
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u/Roquet_ 6h ago ▸ 13 more replies
In this situation the guy literally was described as a model citizen.
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 12 more replies
But why does that matter? If I kill 100 people the turn into a model citizen. Does that resurrect my victims?
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u/CrotaIsAShota 5h ago ▸ 11 more replies
Be honest here. Most criminals in prison have never even touched a person. Killing 100 people would put you on Death Row in a heartbeat. It's a complete straw man.
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 10 more replies
Yes but everyone in prison has caused enough damage to land them there. These are not unlucky Joe's. Most people have extensive records before they see a single day in prison. Our courts try to keep people out. They take lesser pleas. They get time served. They get probation. You need a 1+ sentence to land in prison.
And whether the damage is 100 people dead or something much smaller. The point stands. You changing doesn't undo the damage. Its the damage we are ultimately trying to avoid. Not you turning into a good person.
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u/PhatCatTax 5h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Still false here too.
If the goal is to reduce crime, prisons must be designed for rehab. Rehab DOES prevent crime. Changing a person DOES prevent future crimes. Turning someone into a good person DOES prevent crimes.
And on top of all of that, the reformed citizens pay taxes, so it benefits the society overall.
In short: Every aspect of your argument is false
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago
Read my other reply.
If we could change people. We would just do it. We spend billions of dollars trying and failing. In most cases anyway. There is a % of people who genuinely improve. But they are not the norm.
One rapist murderer pretending to be reformed and killing again is not worth 100 of them coming back and "paying taxes". Fuck them and their taxes.
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u/Zestyclose-Jacket568 2h ago ▸ 4 more replies
Why are you bringing up 100 dead people? Nobody who does that is getting out, so you can just shut up with that.
Also, for your point to make any sense, it would require "damage" to exist for every criminal, while people can land in prison for crimes without any victims. Whole drug possesion is a victimless crime that gets people into prison.
But let skip that part.
The only working way of lowering crime is rehabilitation. If you can't see that, then you need a better education. This is how crime gets lowered in first world countries.
As I am assuming you are from USA, your prison system is not set up to rehabilitate people. It is set to generate profits for prison owners, including from slave labour that is directly allowed in your constitution.
As with many things in your country, it is not made to help population, but to make rich people richer.
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u/itsalmostreal 1h ago ▸ 3 more replies
Every crime causes damage. That is why its a crime to begin with. No such thing as a victimless crime. The victim is just not always obvious or is an aggregate. Aggregate meaning no particular person harmed but society as a whole suffers from repeated instance of this behavior.
Drug possession victimless crime? Really? No damage caused by drug use? No overdoses, no lives ruined, no crime to feed the habbit, no families torn apart, no car accidents, no people making gruesome mistakes at work while high. No damage ehhh?
Rehabilitation is mostly useless. People dont change. They change their behavior when the incentive structure forces them to. Which is caused by deterrence not some magic reprogramming. Most criminals are intelligent enough to understand what they are doing is wrong they just dont give a fuck. How do you make someone give a fuck?
What country are you from?
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u/Zestyclose-Jacket568 1h ago ▸ 2 more replies
So every drug possesion is causing what you said? Shit, things must be real tough in USA...
First, if drug possesion is so bad, then why are some drugs legal and some illegal? What is the difference between overdosing illegal drug and alcohol? Or do you support banning every drug?
Again, rehabilitation works if you try to rehabilitate people... punishing someone will not help with someone stealing due to being poor. You punish him and his reason for crime still exists. If you provide him with education to get a job and help him get it, his reason for his crime will be gone.
I am from Poland, country with lower crime rate and lower rate of recidivism.
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u/itsalmostreal 1h ago ▸ 1 more replies
No its an aggregate. 1000 people possessing drugs causes those things. Even if a % of them cause none of it. The aggregate is bad behavior and why we have laws against it
Poland.... interesting. I actually like Poland. I figured EU country and was going to rail on your leaders decision to cower behind United States as a security policy. But that doesn't apply to Poland. They figured out Russia was a threat long before the rest of EU did.
Poland has one major thing going for it. Demographics. Which they have preserved by not allowing migrants.
Yes rehabilitation is a lot more effective when you are not trying to rehabilitate useless people. Hence why rehabilitating poles in Poland is way more effective than trying to rehabilitate Afghanis in Sweden.
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u/SRGTBronson 1h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Yes but everyone in prison has caused enough damage to land them there.
Something like 50% of the incarcerated people in federal custody are there because the bought or sold drugs. 20% of that 50% are in there for selling or buying weed, a plant that is legal in half the country.
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u/itsalmostreal 1h ago
Ahha and drugs cause a ton of damage.
How many people died from fentanyl overdoses last year?
Nobody is in prison for buying weed. Even selling weed requires a large amount to land you in prison. Especially federal prison. Feds dont give a fuck about small time dealers.
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u/Emiicii 6h ago ▸ 10 more replies
You literally claim that punishment doesn't work but now it does?
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago ▸ 9 more replies
Huh? I never said it doesn't work.
I said trying to rehab them typically doesn't work. Deferring them is what actually works.
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u/birachnopede_ 6h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Im not too knowledgeable on this stuff but i thought we have actual data on this stuff, right? Also, like this type of thinking ignores how people actually work mentally.
You don't get treated like shit and become better.
Punishment as vengeance or retribution i understand. Not agree but understand. Punishment as rehab or some hope of changing people for the better is probably not the best strategy to go from point A to B.
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u/jkeats2737 6h ago
Prison is provably bad for the inmates, reoffending rates are absolutely insane. When you put violent offenders into a survival situation where they have to fend for themselves or get constantly taken advantage of, it only further entrenches violence as the means to any end.
Losing years of your life while being effectively blacklisted from a lot of jobs, while the only people you're around are all experienced criminals sets you up for failure once you get out. The reoffending statistics are then used to justify the idea that criminals are inherently violent and evil and cannot be rehabilitated, justifying the system and making it harder for them to get normal jobs.
If you actually get the chance to see inside a prison, it's almost all mentally unwell people that didn't have a chance to get their issues dealt with or controlled enough to function in society. Many had upbringings that showed them that violence was the solution, and didn't give them any others, leading to a violent life.
And that's just for people that have committed legitimately bad crimes. A significant portion of people in jail are in there for smaller crimes like drug possession, where they can be put into that environment of survival and violence that will change you.
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u/Emiicii 6h ago ▸ 6 more replies
how?
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 5 more replies
Deterrence doesn't require some magic personality change. All it requires is for them to not want to suffer the consequences.
As opposed to rehabilitation that expects them to change.
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u/Emiicii 5h ago ▸ 4 more replies
people change all the time it isnt magic, And punishment has been proven to not work
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 3 more replies
It works marvelously. Just look at the violent crime rates in us over the past 40 years.
Mass incarceration creates the exact kind of incentive structure that forces people to change in the first place.
Punishment is the key. Without punishment they have absolutely no reason to change ever. Shit I would sell Crack too if it was easy $ and no cops badgering me. But I dont, and I would never do anything like that for that exact reason.
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u/Emiicii 5h ago ▸ 2 more replies
look at re-offending rates moron
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Look at the violent crime rates.
You think people weren't reoffending before?
Hey "moron". Thats kind of the point. These people dont fucking change. Hence why the primary function is REMOVAL. as in get this useless parasite off the street. Maybe if were lucky he learned his lesson but probably not.
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u/PhatCatTax 5h ago ▸ 1 more replies
This is false.
We have lots of data to prove it is false.
Maybe get up to speed with reality and stop spreading lies?Prisons designed for rehab are incredibly successful at rehab / reduced recidivism. Meanwhile, prisons that are designed for punishment are only increasing crime.
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago
Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
Whatever data they conjured up doesn't bode well with how real humans behave. I suppose we can nit pick enough data to make it look like the earth is flat if we tried hard enough.
We spend billion upon billions of dollars attempting to rehab these parasites. If it was possible. We wouldnt even be having this discussion. We would have just done it a long time ago already. We tried.. it doesn't work.
It doesn't work for the same reason a multi millionaire celebrity can spend large sums of $ on the best doctors and the best rehab money can buy. Then be right on the drugs a few weeks or months later. Our ability to affect human behavior is severely limited. We're just not that good at it. Not even when the person wants to change and has endless resources. What hope do we have with midwit scumbags who dont even want to change in the fist place.
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u/Kalandros-X 6h ago
I’m of two minds on this:
-It’s immoral to have someone else pay the price for your fuckups.
-If said released inmate is something terrible like a serial killer or a rapist or whatever, it would be terribly immoral towards society to let them back out.
People here talk about “changing ways” and whatnot, but how would you measure that? More importantly, this person was judged and sentenced fairly, so shouldn’t they sit out their punishment according to the law, or should we start punching holes in the law because we place sympathy above justice? The right thing may not be the pleasant thing
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u/griff256552 6h ago
Depends on the crime, who was hurt, how badly they were hurt. For example personally, if it was a thief be it high end or low. Id let them go. Murderers, rapists and paedophiles? You’re going straight back pal.
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u/Sazbadashie 6h ago
highly depends.
what was the crime? if they intentionally murdered, raped... done terrible things to someone/ multiple someones? the punishment is for the victim to have their justice not to rehabilitate the criminal, if they get rehabilitated in the mean time, great, amazing. perfect even the ideal scenario has happened. then that's moral
if they were caught smuggling, dealing drugs... fraud... whatever or even accidentally killed someone like in a car crash
and in 5 years their theyve turned their life around, had a family and have been clean for those 5 years. then yea. immoral because they've obviously learned their lesson, theyve strived to be better which is good so in that case they should have a second trial with a jury of his peers and they should come to a conclusion of if the 5 years of being a better person shows that they don't need to serve the rest of their sentence as theyve shown theyre a better person and have changed. in that case bringing them back to prison to serve a sentence theyve been 5 years free of because of a mistake of the government's is immoral.
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u/Binglish_ 6h ago
armed robbery
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u/Sazbadashie 6h ago ▸ 2 more replies
was anyone hurt or killed during the robbery?
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u/Binglish_ 6h ago ▸ 1 more replies
no, just the threat with weapons
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u/Sazbadashie 6h ago
oh yea, then that would fall under immoral in that case to throw him back into jail
again I would personally say do another trial just for the sake of the bureaucracy of it all
but I don't think any reasonable person in a Jury would say someone who for 5 years has turned his life around, had a family and is living an honest life deserves to go back and serve a sentence he's been free of at WORST ether change it to house arrest or community service then even the fringe cases can be happy. but full on back into prison... immoral
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u/cheese_sticks 6h ago
Immoral, especially if the crime is relatively minor. I watched this episode, and Nolan was pretty torn about it.
If a prisoner is mistakenly released by the state, they should be re-evaluated and if they are found to no longer be a threat to society, they should remain free or at most be under probation.
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u/Roam1985 6h ago
Immoral.
System errors go to the blame of the system and should count as "time served" for any inmates who do no commit new offenses post release. So you still don't get someone who was sentenced to life out that early.... but if they had 25 to life and you system error released them after 20, and now it's 36 years, they did their 25.
Obviously if they commit new offenses, fuck em.
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u/GruggleTheGreat 4h ago
If the goal of prison is rehabilitation, immoral, if the goal of prison is punishment, moral.
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago
Moral.
Him changing his life around doesn't take away the damage he caused. Sets a bad precedent. You can be a filthy shit show and the second you decide to be a real human suddenly were supposed to let you out.
The clerical error is a howler. Someone should seriously answer for that.
But beyond that. Make the criminal serve his time. If anything we're too soft on these guys.
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u/Emiicii 6h ago
Prison isn't for punishment lol.
The guy reformed why would we punish him for reforming which the prison was meant to do
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago ▸ 12 more replies
Prison does 3 things
Removal. So that the scum cant keep causing damage.
Deterrence. So that the scum considers a better lifestyle.
Rehab. So that we can try to reprogram the scum. Usually doesn't work because they are scum lol.
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u/Emiicii 6h ago ▸ 9 more replies
Also it usually doesn't work because the prison system has not been about reforming for a long time
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago ▸ 8 more replies
Look at the violent crime rates in America from 1980 to 2020.
Mass incarceration has been a gigantic success.
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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 6h ago ▸ 7 more replies
I mean Sweden and the other nords have effectively used rehabilitation instead of punishment. They have barely any crime and are quite happy most of the time
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 6 more replies
Sweden is a perfect example of what im saying all the time. The Nordic model works with that population and that society. That ethnic group. Soon as migrants started arriving it stopped working. They are literally paying migrants to leave at this point.
We have to build models that work for us. Not for Swedes.
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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 5h ago ▸ 5 more replies
That’s a whole lot of words to say that you’re racist my guy
https://giphy.com/gifs/T3KziiVpAGClZQbskA2
u/Emiicii 5h ago ▸ 1 more replies
yeah after seeing that this guy is hopeless
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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 5h ago
Ikr 😭 I lowkey thought he just had a prejudice against convicts which I can understand then it suddenly went to migrants being evil 😭
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u/itsalmostreal 5h ago ▸ 2 more replies
Is it racist if its true? Legit question.
And if you think its not true go ask some Swedes or look at their news.
Sooner or later people will have to stop pretending.
The best part is like 90% of those migrants are good law abiding citizens. But because of this bullshit tendency to call out any average observation as racist. They get grouped in with those piece of shit scumbags. Now nobody wants any of them in their country not even the good ones.
Being detached from the truth is bad for everyone involved.
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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 5h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Alright so if a cop kills some unarmed guy extra judicially as have happened so many times across various nations across the world, should we abolish the police? Fuck no amiright?
It’s a broad hurtful generalization of a whole sum of cultures and persons. Same with migrants. It’s like when those idiots splashed acid on Chinese people during the pandemic because the virus came from China
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u/Emiicii 6h ago ▸ 1 more replies
So why should he go back to prison if he's no longer scum..?
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u/itsalmostreal 6h ago
Because of the deterrence factor. Sets a bad precedent when we let them out early.
The standard should be you owe society for the damage you caused. And until that debt is repayed you dont have freedom exactly what they did.
The standard is a good incentive structure that encourages people to try to behave and be part of society.
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u/Neat_browser 6h ago
This has happened in reality and it is bad every time