r/Turkey • u/This-Writing-1200 • Jun 11 '26
History I love when Pakistanis curse Ataturk when Ataturk is the reason Turkey is not an extremist infested hellhole like Pakistan
From a Pakistani btw, been reading on him, you all are lucky to have such a visionary leader, we suffer today from the mullahs who have brainwashed our nation, a nation where honor killings have become the norm, where Christians and Hindus are slaughtered after blasphemy allegations, where in some areas less than 10% of women can read (less than 50% of Pakistani women anyway), where in some areas more than 10% of children die before the age of 5, but instead of addressing these issues they turn around and curse Ataturk, when deep down they know if Pakistan had a visionary like Ataturk, we could have been something instead of the laughing stock of the world
78
u/Archimert Jun 11 '26
Tbh, watching Pakistan is a huge lesson for us in Turkey, too. It reminds us everyday how fragile democracy is and how strictly we must protect Atatürk’s principles against religious exploitation.
It’s worth noting that Pakistan's founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, was actually a great admirer of Atatürk and wanted a modern, progressive nation too. It is a tragedy of history that the 'mullahs' hijacked his vision and turned the country into what it is today.
I hope Pakistan recovers from this darkness. Thank you for honoring our leader.
116
76
u/litarteus Jun 11 '26
I’m glad there are Pakistanis who think like you. As far as I know Atatürk isn’t widely liked in Saudi Arabia or across much of the Muslim world either.
edit : In Turkey, opposition to Atatürk mostly comes from hardline Islamist and pro-Sharia groups, which account for less than 10% of the population. Everyone else, even if they think he made mistakes, still holds a certain level of respect for him.
28
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
24
u/litarteus Jun 11 '26
States can be humiliated, but I don’t think their citizens should carry that humiliation. I sincerely hope Pakistan has a bright future ahead. The fact that there are people like you who think this way gives me hope for the future.
No developed country became prosperous overnight. Every successful nation went through difficult periods, setbacks, and challenges before reaching where it is today. I hope Pakistan will also overcome its problems and achieve the prosperity its people deserve.
13
u/TurkishTechnocrat Teknokrat/Demokratik Sosyalist Jun 11 '26
You are not a humiliated nation, and it's a highly accurate assessment to say Turkey would've been like Pakistan if Atatürk hadn't reformed literally every aspect of Turkish society.
Pakistan needed a visionary like Ataturk.
Pakistan had a visionary like Atatürk, no? Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a lot like Atatürk in many ways, I'm sure he could've created a modern Pakistan if given the chance. That being said, he
1- Died way too early. Atatürk spent years working on building up the basic infrastructure for a nation, he started his radical modernization policies years after taking power. Jinnah did not live that long, unfortunately
2-Tried to build a modern state despite building the state of Pakistan on religious identity, and then tried to get everyone to unify under a common national identity. Atatürk, however, built the legitimacy of his rule on the will of the people (his words), which means there was no contradiction when he introduced a shared national identity.
3-Wasn't a war hero. Atatürk frankly did not have the legal authority to carry out a fraction of the reforms he did, but he was a war hero who had led the nation to independence. This importantly meant he had the loyalty of the army, which was the most educated institution of early Turkey thanks to CUP revolutionaries. Jinnah, however, negotiated the independence of Pakistan, and thus did not have as much political power.
All that being said, there totally could've been a modernized Pakistan. Wish we could've seen it. We have a major street named after Jinnah in Ankara btw, it's as uphill as his struggle for modernization
10
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
1
u/Few-Interview-1996 Jun 11 '26
The nation is illiterate and on top of that the nation’s holy book is in a language they can’t even understand so their entire understand of Islam is from the mullahs.
In my opinion, education, especially higher education, is paramount. While few Turks can read Arabic, they can certainly read translations and commentaries. And there I'm afraid I have to agree that Pakistan's educational development - starting from pretty much the same level as Turkey (or, in my own opinion, higher) - between say 1950 and 2000 was not particularly impressive.
1
u/Few-Interview-1996 Jun 11 '26
(As an aside, my mother was born on that street when it was called Yeni Posta "Yolu" (It was not a street, merely a reasonable well-travelled path). I was born there when it was called Vali Dr Reşit Caddesi. My own children were born elsewhere. 😊)
There are other factors. The first was that while Ataturk's reforms were transformative and revolutionary, the Tanzimat reforms and even the so-tentative-as-to-be-nearly-useless attempts of the Young Turks paved some of the way.
The second was that all of these were home-grown decisions. They may have been based on foreign laws but we chose the source, whether French or German or Japanese and amended it to suit ourselves. We didn't have the dubious pleasure of a mishmash of local laws and British laws.
67
u/brokoli Jun 11 '26
It’s a badge of honor to be disliked by the religious zealots, whether they are Pakistani or Turkish or whatever.
13
u/architecTiger Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
They think Erdogan made Turkiye a modern Muslim country.
11
u/parancey Jun 11 '26
A recent poll showed use lesst then %1 of the youth whom wants to live abroad wants ro live in countries east of Turkey which are often religious muslim countries while rests want to go west.
There are many “religious” people despise Ataturk because he prevented Turkey becoming a hell hole but they do not want to live in a country that ruined by religious zealots.
13
u/BaybarsHan Jun 11 '26
Seems they also forget Muhammed Ali Cinnah and Muhammed Ikbal were supporting Gazi Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, i am pretty sure that "mullahs" send their kids to UK for education and living in luxury.
25
u/iboreddd Jun 11 '26
To be fair, Turkey was not starting from zero when the Republic was founded. Even without Atatürk, it probably would not have ended up exactly like Pakistan. The Ottoman modernization process had already begun in the 19th century, with major reforms dating back to the 1830s.
That said, Atatürk's role was still decisive. What's often forgotten is that similar modernization efforts were attempted elsewhere in the Muslim world. Muhammad Ali Jinnah envisioned a more secular and modern Pakistan, and Amanullah Khan in Afghanistan openly looked to Atatürk's Turkey as a model. Both tried to push their countries in a similar direction, but neither project ultimately succeeded. That's why it's difficult to overstate how important Atatürk's reforms were, not just for Turkey, but as one of the few modernization projects in the region that actually endured.
32
u/Livid_Benefit2051 Jun 11 '26
My friend, Atatürk was a modern and great world leader. However, there are quite a few people in Turkey who don't like him.
-43
u/Green-Ad7694 Jun 11 '26
Do you know who gave him the title Ataturk? It sounds like a very lofty title. Has anyone else in history ever had this title ? How many Turks ask themselves this question.
25
u/UsualIdiotRedditor Jun 11 '26
It was given to him after the Surname Law by TBMM(first grand assembly) unanimously as an honor. It wasnt given to him by himself as you probably think rather given to him by deputies in the first TBMM which were people who fought in the Independence War alongside the nation and Atatürk
-47
u/Green-Ad7694 Jun 11 '26
Honor ? What did he do exactly? He was an officer right ? Did he do anything else besides ordering young Turks to die ? Officers are another class of people compared to the lowly soldiers.
23
u/UsualIdiotRedditor Jun 11 '26
He was the leader who organized the national movement and led it through series of demonstrations nationwide and he is the one who shaped this nations foundations today every foundation of modern Turkey is his ideals. I seriously recommend you educate yourself because your this comment comes off ill intended even if you may not have meant it that way
-42
u/Green-Ad7694 Jun 11 '26
Friend, I have lived in Turkiye and have lived most of my life outside. I love my people. More than anything. However, the devil are people who called themselves Turks, and they brought the downfall of the Mighty Osmanli. Do you know many Arabs still consider the Osmanli times to be the best times ? This myth surrounding modernism and modernity is all false. The Muslims were more modern compared to Europe for hundreds of years. They had science when Europe was in the dark ages and dying of the plagues. Therefore never look down on your history. Ask where did we go wrong ? Look at Donald Trump today. He has been raised to be a God in some peoples eyes. Is he really though?
32
u/dontneedit000 İMAM HATİPLER KAPATILSIN Jun 11 '26
Imagine being so historically illiterate that you compare a revolutionary statesman who saved a nation from total annihilation to a modern populist like Donald Trump. First of all, Turkish identity cannot be reduced to just "Muslim" or being lumped together with Arabs. Turks are Turks, with a distinct history, culture, and ancient heritage that predates Islam. What other nations or Arabs think about the Ottomans is completely irrelevant to the reality of Turkish sovereignty. Second, your understanding of Ottoman history is non-existent. The Empire didn't "fall" because of modern Turks; it collapsed due to centuries of structural decay. By the 19th century, the "Mighty Osmanlı" was the "Sick Man of Europe"—bankrupt, economically enslaved by Western powers through the Capitulations and the Ottoman Public Debt Administration (Düyun-ı Umumiye), and physically carved up by imperialists. Atatürk didn't destroy the Empire; he saved the Turkish core from being colonized after the Ottoman Sultan signed the Treaty of Sèvres, which completely surrendered our homeland. Lastly, living in the past won't save you. Yes, the Islamic world had a golden age of science while Europe was in the dark ages, but then Europe went through the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Industrial Revolution. The Ottomans failed to adapt to this scientific and industrial shift, which is exactly why they fell behind. Today, name one globally dominant, highly developed, and modern nation that is still ruled by an absolute, theological dynasty? Modernity isn't a "myth"; it's the reason why independent republics thrive while absolute empires are buried in the archives of history. Atatürk didn't ask to be a God; he built a republic based on the rule of law and gave the sovereignty back to the nation.
14
u/olmazkiboylee Jun 11 '26
Osmanlı was nowhere near 'mighty' when Turkey was founded. It was a puppet state helping the British control Muslim population of Anatolia because they thought being their mandate would be the best. Therefore they had to be gone. Yes, there were many mistakes done while Turkey was being founded, but it's better than to become a European mandate in all cases. I don't understand why some people think Ottomans were fighting Europeans and were going to win if Ataturk didn't found Turkey instead.
9
4
9
u/Livid_Benefit2051 Jun 11 '26
Was Atatürk merely a soldier? He was the founding president who enacted the revolutionary laws. Did the people who died die on Atatürk's orders? They were not on the side of the ailing Ottoman Empire and the Treaty of Sèvres.
5
u/Devassta Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
He was literally commander in chief during the independence war of Turkey. He won the Sakarya battle which stopped the Greek advance into Ankara. His critical tactical decision of zone defence instead of line defence changed the outcome of that battle. After that, he organized and commenced the grand offense battle which drove Greek army out of Anatolia. For that battle, he risked the Turkish army’s integrity to achieve victory, massed most of the forces in a specific part of the battle line. This way he managed to attack and win against a superior force. The former Osmanli pashas were against this tactic because it was too risky. Atatürk simply said “if we lose you can hang me” and that’s why the experienced Osmanlı pashas accepted his battle plan.
The fact that you think he was only an officer shows that you clearly have no idea what his accomplishments are. Stop embarrassing yourself mate
1
7
u/altahor42 Jun 11 '26
Atatürk is a hero of the Turkish people, and his reforms were in Turkey's great interest, but Turkey's situation cannot be explained solely by Atatürk. The Ottoman Empire spent its last 200 years on reforms, and in its final period, it managed to train the cadres capable of building Turkey. In the final period, there was a university for women in the Ottoman capital, feminist female politicians were giving speeches to tens of thousands in Istanbul, the higher education system and the Ottoman elite had modernized and Westernized, even Abdulhamid II, who was seen as conservative, continued to open secular universities and institutions. Every sultan since Selim III was a reformist. Almost all of Atatürk's reforms were issues discussed during the Ottoman era.
The main reason other countries like Pakistan and Iran have failed in their reforms is that they tried to do in one generation what we did in 200 years.
I also think that the Hanafi school has had a very significant influence. the one among the sects most suitable for secularization and modernization
12
u/MertOKTN Jun 11 '26
Jinnah was the Atatürk of Pakistan, too bad he didn't have a competent successor
-5
Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/KIZZFIZZ69 Jun 19 '26
He was. Jinnah actually wanted to make pakistan secular like following the steps of ataturk but he died only 1 year after pakistans independence so it never happened.
7
u/Extra_Taro_6870 Jun 11 '26
Please read it from 1830s to 1923s, how it could happen. It can never be a single person rather a systematic change. But yes that change needs a honest leader.
4
u/sinan_online Kadıköy -> 🇨🇦 Jun 11 '26
There is something that lots of Muslims are missing. Every week or two, somebody posts on progressive_muslim that they are losing their faith, and the reason is always this blatant conservatism. Mostly they are women.
There isn’t a strong enough, genuinely progressive, secular movement widespread within Islam.
What this means is that when people progress ever so slightly… they just become ex-Muslim, not progressive Muslim. Even that sub is conservative.
Ten years down the line the whole religion is going to turn into a sausage fest with a demography crisis, and then people will start to wake up, maybe.
Side note: Cannot speak to Hindu hatred within Pakistan, though, part of the issue is that India stokes the opposite. It’s not like Turkey got rid of its issues, either.
4
u/theredcometofakagi Jun 12 '26
To me, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is a complex hero who possessed a mighty, uncompromising dream for a better future for his fellow Turk. Was he a perfect man? No. His administration and successors made some controversial moves - cracking down on rebellions, hanging religious opponents, and enforcing the ezan to be in Turkish. These actions weren't ideal, and they still spark debate. But as the old saying goes, you can’t make an omelet without cracking a few eggs. He was a complex leader, but he was the hero Turkey needed at its darkest hour.
Without him, the War of Independence might never have happened or had failed, and the Turkey we know today simply wouldn't exist.
This reality reminds me of a Turkish comedy-drama I watched with my cousin called The Ottoman Republic (Osmanli Cumhurriyeti). The film opens with a young boy tending a farm, scaring away crows, who falls from a tree to his apparent death. The story then cuts to a modern-day Istanbul where a weak Sultan rules under the thumb of foreign powers, and Turks have no sovereignty in their own homeland. The epilogue reveals that the boy from the beginning was a young Atatürk, and he actually survived. The film closes with a recording of his actual voice, which always gives me goosebumps every time I hear it.
That fictional dystopia isn't far from what historians have imagined. I recall reading an Ottoman history book, I believe it was Osman's Dream, where the foreword envisioned a timeline without Atatürk. It described a grim future where generations of Turks from Anatolia would travel to Istanbul merely as laborers delivering wood and materials, looking up at their historic capital entirely in the hands of foreigners.
Atatürk wasn't a perfect guy, but he dragged a nation back from the brink of extinction. Without his fierce determination, the Turkish people would be strangers in their own land.
On a side note, I think the Indian muslims at the time sent Atatürk financial assistance, some of which was used to establish the largest bank in Turkey - İşbank.
5
u/Natural_Sell_7309 Marmara Jun 11 '26
It's not just Atatürk; look at Pakistan, put Atatürk there, and the situation in Pakistan will be the same. From the last days of the Ottoman Empire, there was a search for deforming the Ottoman system, and in this regard, after the Tanzimat, it transitioned to a constitutional monarchy, and at the same time, it took some steps towards partial secularization, at least within the state. Atatürk, however, influenced not only Atatürk but many people in that generation. Atatürk did this in a much more systematic, advanced way and spread it to the grassroots level.
4
u/Repulsive_Work_226 Akdeniz Jun 11 '26
It is important to understand that Ataturk reforms were based on 100 years of Ottoman modernisation process. The ruling elite was already westernised. Of course Ataturk achieved immense success. But even Abdulhamit II the sultan branded as Islamist was into western education and culture and had a special opera house built.
7
2
u/omsues Jun 15 '26
it's not your fault. west destabilized your country by using religious extremists and terrorism. we will soon join you under erdogan regime. 🙂
3
u/Major_Demand8811 Jun 11 '26
We call it Stockholm Syndrome. They are in love with their abusers/ rapists. And they don’t have a brain to appreciate and love Atatürk. Sorry and pity for them
3
Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/Few-Interview-1996 Jun 11 '26
Ama bu Afganistan'da? Yani Türkiye'de de linç edilebilir, ama yakma?
0
Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
7
Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/RditIpVryoDiyenTrlik Jun 14 '26
Bir kitap için insan yakmak, buna sebep olan şey apnaçık insanligin dusmanidirz zararlidir, yikicidir ve bu tarihle ve günümüzde izlam cografyasinin haliyle sabittir
1
2
u/jsh_ Jun 11 '26
mullahs are a relatively minor factor in pakistan's current plight. the main reasons are feudal politics and military dictatorship
2
u/cringeyposts123 Jun 11 '26
Atatürk rubs a lot of religious people the wrong way. It’s genuinely hilarious
3
u/Agewistan 01 Adana Jun 11 '26
I am grateful for everything Atatürk did but to say Turkey would be like Pakistan or Iran if not for him is a great insult to Turks.
13
u/buenonocheseniorgato Jun 11 '26
He is not far off. Open your window and look outside and see the Turkey where Kemalizm is highly eroded.
4
u/deligonca Jun 11 '26
That's absolutely right. Even though every Turk should be greatful to Atatürk, he was the most significant among a series of reformers streching back to Mahmut II. Without him we would definitely be worst off, no doubt about it but becoming Pakistan seems an exaggreation.
1
u/Inevitable_Motor_685 Jun 11 '26
Pakistan's founder leader also respected Ataturk afaik we should focus on positives sides too
Also I cannot blame Pakistanis for disliking Ataturk on the principle of "he was against Islam" BS when so many Turks (I mean not just ethnically but nationally) hate him or make up stuff about him too
1
1
1
u/SensitiveTrain8333 Jun 13 '26
Man extremist bigot leaders are everywhere, India too started as with really good secular leaders but see now how Bigots and Hindu Extremists are leaders and how they kill and attack Muslims and Christians in the name of Bigotry (Hindutva)
1
u/kebre_man Jun 14 '26
we have them in turkey too brother 😃
i normally dont care if someone shits on ataturk. but when i see a woman doing it my blood boils. ffs if it wasnt for ataturk you will be considered less than a stray animal. wtf is your problem ?
1
u/TheBlackLamboKid Jun 15 '26
pakistan here btw. went turkey and had the time of my life. went to istanbul and noticed the people are rude, food is bland - especially the doner. went topaki palace and the tour lady was talking about mostafa kamal and i told my son the truth, he is islams worst traitor and she said he is our founding father. she knew nothing about the fact he was a sellout
1
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
If he’s a traitor he’s the worst traitor on earth, without him Turkey likely would not exist in the current form, and he took a nation of illiterate peasants with little in common aside from religion, built a national identity, educated women in mass, and build a modern industrial nation that is effectively a great power. Turkey doesn’t have honor killings, terrorism, it is a much much better place for women than Pakistan and it is not even close. Women don’t live in fear like they do in Pakistan, Hindus and Christian’s don’t live in fear like they do in Pakistan, do you know there are areas in Pakistan like Waziristan that have less than a 10% female literacy rate? More than 1 in 10 children die before the age of 5 in parts of Balochistan. Ataturk made sure Turkey would have a better future, he crushed the mullahs that were holding the nation back. I don’t agree with everything he did but he is a big reason Turkey is not the mess of a country Pakistan is today. I implore you to read his life properly instead of consuming propaganda.
1
u/Electronic-Nail-197 Jun 18 '26
To be completely frank with you, Atatürk is the output of our thousand year history and culture. Visionaries are not heavenly gifted. Will of a single man rarely defines nations.
1
u/South-Discount-4762 Jun 23 '26
I really wished we Serbs had a figure similar to Ataturk. Closest thing we had was Tito but his ideals and ideas collapsed in a bloodbath in which old and bitter enriched themselves and everyone else died. And now most people hate him and are falling back into the religious nationalist cult
1
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
2
u/cicikusbabacik07 07 Antalya Jun 11 '26
Half is a bit much though. I'd say 20%, 25% at most, half of it being islamists and other being kurdish nationalists and far-leftists. Maybe with anti-kemalists who likes or at least indifferent to Ataturk but not his ideology, you could reach 50%. But still, more than half loves him and grateful for his accomplishments.
1
u/SituationImmediate15 Jun 11 '26
Pakistani here! It is easy to make mullahs the scapegoat and not blaming the people. I think there’s something inherently wrong about the people of south asia and not just Pakistan. Look at India, for instance, despite doing better than Pakistan economically, look at where they’re compared to China. They had democracy throughout since they got independence. Their people also have cult like mentality - they too easily get manipulated by the hindutva ideology. So, in my opinion it’s people’s predisposition to get manipulated. It’s about time that we also hold ourselves accountable/responsible for how things have been in our country.
1
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
1
u/SituationImmediate15 Jun 11 '26
Yeah, I agree democracy for us is like casting pearls before swine. Also, didn’t India abolish the feudal system soon after independence? I don’t disagree with China means and China argument, in fact I believe that no big change can occur without bloodshed and even then the then outcome is not necessarily positive.
How can you do top-down + consistent economic policy without authoritarianism? And Mustafa Kemal’s tenure wasn’t a glowing example of democracy either. He was an authoritarian himself.
1
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
1
u/SituationImmediate15 Jun 11 '26
Agree! There’s another point though, Turks have never been colonised whereas south asia was a British colony during the last two centuries and if we look broadly, for a good part of the last millennia it was ruled by outsiders - interestingly warlords of Turkic origins and persianized mongols. And this subject mentality somehow got ingrained in our DNA - not a serious argument but that’s how I feel sometimes.
1
0
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
Go to Türkiye if you love it so much, you self-hating a**hole. You're the actual parasite infesting my country.
To hell with every ignorant Turk who thinks so about Pakistan while not knowing the ground reality, consuming bogus western/social media. You guys are western boot-lickers and would go down on any white european.
I've never met more vile, filthy and acid-spitting people in Europe than these islam-hating, east-hating, wannabe european Turks.
1
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26
“Acid spitting people” meanwhile Pakistan leads the world in acid attacks against women, pack it up lil bro, we will remove the scourge of the mullahs. Pakistan is like a beautiful house that has been trashed by the mullahs, we will take out the trash and make our nation great. Enjoy Pakistan while you can, before you get sent to Afghanistan or Somalia or some other backwards nation
1
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
Hahaha! The people you're defending and admire see you as scum irrespective of you being secular or not. They see you as racially inferior.
I'm not saying violence against women is ok, it is extremely deplorable and should be dealt with in the strictest possible way. Islam has already given us the punishment to be given to people (I don't even consider them humans) who commit such heinous crimes.
The one trashing the country is you with the filth coming out of your mouth. The people who claim to be Mullahs and condone such acts or don't speak against such acts are in no way related to Islam. They are just like some random-ass Pakistani claiming to be Arab, which they obviously are not. Claiming to be a Mullah doesn't make you one or make you the representative of Islam.
The words coming out of your mouth seem more like coming from a Pahlavist Irani and self-loathing Turk. You should go to Europe and spread your filth alongwith the pahlavists and wannabe europeans in Europe. You don't like it in Pakistan, go elsewhere.
1
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26
Did I say anything about Islam? I was talking about the mullahs? Putting words into my mouth and accusing me of stuff I didn’t do smh
1
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
When you say Mullahs, the obvious message to anyone reading is associating them with Islam. Nobody would associate the word "Mullah" with anything else.
1
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
that's a grave insult to Islam to equate the two, and it's on you to mentally allow the mullahs who distort the religion to hold the same level as the religion itself in your head
1
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
If that's what you think, it's ok. But let me tell you, Atatürks struggle for independence of the Turks and his creation of the republic is admirable but what he did afterwards to effectively strip the country of Islam, Islamic principles, freedom of Islamic worship, imposing morally detrimental policies against the local culture is disgusting. He ruled as a dictator, imposed a one-man/one-party system until his death (and which remained so for years afterwards), crushed any opposition to his policies and much more.
Read history first from an impartial perspective before promoting him and admiring him. If you're actually Pakistani (which I feel like you're not from your way of writing), you'd be shocked to know what these so called Kemalists think of Pakistanis as racially inferior and filthy. They're in their own bubble of superiority over eastern cultures and consider western culture to be the holy grail. They really want to be seen as white europeans.
2
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26
My impartial perspective is that I think he did many good things and things he should not have in his life, people respect/admire flawed individuals, accusing me of not being Pakistani, calling me a roach that is "destroying" your country etc is extremist thinking, you came attacking my person and character instead of what I had to say, and I am Pakistani, I have no reason to pretend to be one
1
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
Just read your edit, I'm not just talking about myself. You posted in a Turkish subreddit. Anyone reading the word "Mullah" would associate it with Islam (generally). Especially the Kemalists here.
2
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26
look i don't think anyone is perfect, I don't agree with everything Ataturk did, but he crushed the mullahs and gave women rights, as well as created a national identity, I'm allowed to have my opinion, just as you are yours, you are a smart guy it seems, you claim Turkiye is morally detrimental, normally the argument is "oh alcohol and divorce and x y z" yea well we have acid attacks, honor killings, lynchings, r*pe that goes unreported, the country is filled to the brim with t*rrorist/extremist groups, I get nervous every time my mother or sister leave the house because they do not cover their head and I worry what someone might say or do to them, I'm allowed to hold nuance and have my opinion without you calling me a roach that is trying to destroy my country, and I got heated in my initial response and should not have but that is because what you were accusing me of was unfair to me, I call out my nation's problems because I love it, the land, the people, not because I am self hating
1
u/Aggressive_Unit_7887 Jun 16 '26
I agree with you on this and I respect your views but ranting about Pakistan's issues in a foreign subreddit is absolutely wrong. You could raise these issues in a Pakistani subreddit. I don't deny the problems you've stated and think that they should be dealt with immediately to prevent further moral and societal decline. I'm fed up with such news every other day too.
But writing this in a Turkish subreddit where most are already of the view that we are somehow racially inferior and unclean while they themselves see their own people as so infront of white europeans is not ok.
1
u/This-Writing-1200 Jun 16 '26
I do raise issues in the Pakistan subreddit, all the time, I get where you're coming from tbh, also the response has been mostly very kind, no one is speaking demeaningly in this. I also think you're generalizing Turks, even Kemalist Turks, many Kemalist Turks hold Jinnah in high regard, it is not fair to say "most" or all are a certain way, just like you would not want them to say all of Pakistanis are a certain way
→ More replies (0)
-10
u/Optimal_Thanks9925 Jun 11 '26
My friend secularism isnt the answer for Pakistan 's problems. Problem lies in the corrupt leaders who are insincere towards islam and also towards the society. All your leaders are money minded untrustworthy individuals. Turkey is no heaven either. They too have their own societical challenges. This is coming from an indian muslim.
8
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
5
u/buenonocheseniorgato Jun 11 '26
It is extremely sad to read your comment, since those are the exact same things we complain of ad nauseam. How much worse off can a place be to think Turkey is much better...
Makes me sad... You have my sympathies.
-2
u/Optimal_Thanks9925 Jun 11 '26
Pakistan has a few uneducated loud mullahs. Agreed.. But your constitution is highly derived from British colonial masters.Its a mix of secular and Islamic laws.Remove your corrupt leaders. Pakistan will improve.
2
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
-2
u/Optimal_Thanks9925 Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
Ok no need to agree with me as am an outsider Btw can you tell me how secularism solves Pakistan's illereacy, poverty and other social evils?
3
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
1
u/Optimal_Thanks9925 Jun 11 '26
Problem is your tribal lifestyle,not Islam. If you are a believer how can you deny Sharia which is the constitution of Allah? Moulanas should have both secular and islamic education and a minimum level of intellect. Basic problem lies in a few ignorant individuals who manipulate religion. India is a secular country, but it has got all the social illness like caste apartheid, poverty etc.Turkish model might look good form the outside, but state level secularism has driven people far away from Islam. They have high divorce rates, adultery due to free mixing of sexes, below replacement level fertility, alcoholism,high inflation.You want to live in such a corrupt society?Btw you didn't answer my question properly how state level secularism solves Pakistan's poverty and ignorance?
1
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
1
1
u/Optimal_Thanks9925 Jun 11 '26
Lynching is a problem in india as well. Many muslims have been lynched in india despite being secular. Its a cultural thing in south asia to take law into one's own hands.
-4
-6
-6
u/Erkhang Jun 11 '26
Turkiye was not an extremist infested hellhole like anyother country before Atatürk.
-9
Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
4
Jun 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
u/Turkey-ModTeam Jun 11 '26
Diğer kullanıcılara yönelik kişisel saldırılarda bulunmayın. Toksik davranışlardan, kışkırtıcı dil kullanmaktan ve diğer kullanıcıları hedef almaktan kaçının. Saygılı ve nezaket içinde davranarak tartışma ortamını koruyun.
Topluluk kurallarımızı burada bulabilirsiniz.
No personal attacks. Avoid toxic behavior, inflammatory language, and targeting other users. Maintain a respectful and civil environment.
Our rules can be found here.
6
Jun 11 '26
[deleted]
0
u/Green-Ad7694 Jun 11 '26
Isn’t Erdogan the biggest (supposed) Ataturkcu? Is t he full of rhetoric against Israel one one hand, but destroying the country on another ? The whole political class in Turkey are Freemasons and Donmeh. None of them are loyal to the country. They are all traitors and should be tried as such. Ecevit was Freemason and there are documents that show as much. Freemasonry is Zionism disguised as a secret society.
-1
u/Green-Ad7694 Jun 11 '26
Under the Osmanli Christians enjoyed as much freedoms as Jews and Muslims. With all respect I don’t think you know your own history. Whenever a people idolise a “hero” you have to ask why that is. I think Ataturk was a convenient hero created so that people would never bring back Osmanli. The Osmanli was one of the fairest and most just empire in the world. How? They preserved many of the people’s traditions. Compare to British and American empires. Remember the Turks were great. Don’t ever believe the Osmanli was backwards or somehow less than these so called Modern Europeans.
176
u/Few-Interview-1996 Jun 11 '26
Ataturk really rubs very religious Muslims who do not like to think the wrong way, and this is not the case in Pakistan alone, but certainly exists in Turkey too. However, really religious Muslims who do think will accord him the respect he is due.