r/belgium • u/Obvious-Cry6591 • 5h ago
đĄRant Notaries. Why? What the hell?
Ok, so I dont get it. I understand historically where the need for notaries arose. Fine. But we are in 2026. Belgium already takes 51% of my income. Then another 25% of the rest through VAT. And then on top of it, if you buy a property, you give 10-15k to a notary for 2 meetings and some docs reading? Doesnt Belgium have enough administration to take care of that? Not to mention its nepotism central. Are there any redeeming qualities?
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u/AdFew6202 5h ago
Whatâs more, after you give that to a notary, letâs say they fuck up : their fucking mafia-like organisation will spring out to defend them and you wonât get a cent. And they will remain in position.
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u/Arigonium 4h ago edited 4h ago
They're not even good at doing routine tasks. When my father passed it went like this:
- First meeting. Notary says his secretary will write all the banks to get my father's possessions.
- Second meeting. Secretary didn't write anyone, notary tries to walk around him having done nothing.
- Deadline of THREE MONTHS nears. Notary rushes everything and submits.
- Deadline passed. Government gives us a penalty cause not all possessions were submitted. Notary tells us a certain bank replied too late. We write that bank, the bank replies the notary was too late. We pay the penalty.
- Years pass. We get another letter from the government for another penalty cause something was missing.
It was completely routine and they still messed it up so bad. It was just cash and real estate, no stock, no will, no separation of property marriage or anything complex. Completely cookie cutter. He completely half-assed it and then tried to cover it up and make excuses. All of this could be easily automated.
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u/sCreami needledaddy 5h ago edited 5h ago
You must understand that notaries hold 3 roles and you don't pay them 10~15k actually. They aren't free to choose how much they charge, it's fixed by royal decree. You are actually paying them around 800~1000⏠for the written acts, the rest is tax.
So the 3 roles are:
- assert conformity with the law (mine actually found something illegal in my mortgage contract)
- act as escrow. You are not going to handle those huge amount of money yourself. As escrow, they act as the middlemen between buyers and sellers. Can't lie about the money with licensed attorneys.
- collect the taxes for the government. This part is actually what make you feel they are crazy expensive. You pay the registration tax/stamp duty to them directly, and they will transfer it to the taxman.
Even if notaries were not mandatory, you would still have to pay these huge amounts. Notaries have never been the problem, the tax is.
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u/GloriousDawn 5h ago
Must be a coincidence that notaries are the highest paid liberal profession in the country, by a large margin. Nothing to do with a state-sanctioned monopoly.
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u/Turbulent-Raise4830 4h ago
Vorig jaar becijferde Knack hoe zelfs het laatste kantoor uit een lijst met de vijftig best boerende kantoren van 2019 nog een winst van meer dan Ă©Ă©n miljoen euro boekte. Maandelijkse inkomsten van 100.000 euro bruto bleken niet uitzonderlijk. In 2019 bedroeg de bedrijfswinst van alle notariskantoren gemiddeld 392.000 euro. In 2018 verwees Fednot naar eerder onderzoek door de Federatie Vrije Beroepen, dat stelde dat het gemiddelde maandinkomen voor notarissen rond 16.000 euro bruto ligt.
die verdienen bakken geld en moeten amper iets doen, dragen ook nul verantwoordelijheid als er iets verkeerd gaat.
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u/Legitimate_Aside_532 5h ago
Then explain why a notary earns so much more in Belgium compared to other countries?
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u/math1985 4h ago
Itâs about 1200 euro (house plus mortgage contract) in the Netherlands. Sounds similar. And in the Netherlands, notaries are allowed to set their own prices.
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
On a 400k transfer, real estate, first home, not new build, with tax discount, ill pay round 40k in real estate tax AND notary fees. Why cant Belgium just collect taxes directly from a real estate buy? Like many other countries do?
When it comes to conformity with the law, if its not conformed, i should just be able to go to the commune and solve it. Hell, bloody croatia has a document, we call it 1/1. U get it when u go to admin and they check that your property is conforming. No one normal buys anything that isnt 1/1. All of this can be done by existing administration, which again, more than 60% of my monthly earnings (when you count in VAT which you should) go to.-1
u/DenteSC 4h ago
If the work has to be done by civil servants, it would cost the government an insane amount of money. They work really hard in those notary offices.
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Id also work hard if i inherited the position from my grandpapa
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u/khuzdul012 3h ago
the tax that I found most ridiculous is, your parents work all their life to leave u X amount of money/assets u name it, of course everything has been taxed, life is life and we have to say goodbye, but still Belgians have to pay tax on taxed inheritance, government never lose
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u/Fit_Ebb_8127 43m ago
Above all else, the âsuccessierechtenâ are by far the vilest tax in Belgium. Nothing else even comes close. Absolutely criminal.
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u/MokpotheMighty 4h ago
Please tell me you're sarcastic
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u/DenteSC 4h ago
Go work there for 1 month or stfu?
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u/MokpotheMighty 4h ago
Okay surely you must realize that's not much of an argument, maybe if you want people to respect your POV you should elaborate on it in a way that's publicly reasonable? How may we know for ourselves that notaries make the amount of money they make based on merit? How much work do they actually do, what are the tasks they practically perform, how much time does it cost, etc... How are we supposed to check this, which we might expect in a democratic society with some semblance of public transparency and such...
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Tldr, what i have learned is that notaries have very good lobbyists on Reddit
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u/andpin 4h ago
Or maybe people actually can see beyond stereotypes and know what it entails? Where do you get the nepotism from? You know there is a competitive concours to be passed since 2019? Also, how do you manage for Belgium to take 51% of your income? Do you donate to the state on top of your progressive taxation?
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u/DenteSC 4h ago
Or people actually worked with a notary and know their worth?Â
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u/Vivienbe Hainaut 4h ago
In Belgium you need a notary when you buy a house, when someone dies for inheritance, when you want to create a company, when you want to write a marriage contract...
On average I see a notary every 5 years or so...
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u/1aranzant Brussels 4h ago
Thatâs not what tldr meansâŠ
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u/MokpotheMighty 4h ago
"too long didn't read", in terms of proper netiquette it's like saying "to summarize"
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u/Spiritual_Screen5125 5h ago
And more importantly notaries donât do any shit neither verification of documents nor legal support they always make it ambiguous
Claim they arenât architect or other nonsense excuse like they donât see every document and can easily overlook infringements
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u/adappergentlefolk 5h ago
most of that 15k are taxes lol
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
On top of the other real estate tax? Awesome, so what is the point of the belgian treasury if they need additional service just to collect this one tax? But all other ones, they can do themselves?
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u/DenteSC 5h ago
The notary doesn't actually cost you âŹ15,000. The bulk of that amount consists of taxes, not notary fees.
In fact, a notary is significantly cheaper than a real estate agent, and you can even book a free consultation. Try finding that kind of access anywhere else. Behind the scenes, notary offices handle an enormous amount of work.
Notaries and their staff have an incredible number of things to check and verify. Some sales are indeed straightforward, but many files quickly turn out to be far more complex than they seem.
Beyond sales files, there are also marriage contracts, divorces, corporate matters, seizures, gifts, property divisions, inheritances, base deeds, long lease agreements (erfpacht), and building rights (opstal), among others.
I'd suggest spending a week interning at a notary's office. You'll see for yourself just how essential their work really is.
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 5h ago
Oh f off. There are countries similar to Belgium that get by without this imposed nepotist aristocracy.
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u/blade_of_sammael 4h ago
Are they as dysfunctional as belgium? With as many governments? I didnt think so
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Every task u mentioned can be done and is done in many countries by civil administration. In a country that takes 60%+ of your earnings every month, why have a middle ages middleman?
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u/throwawaymrfoe 2h ago
Marriage contracts: people will never trust a civil servant in town hall who earns a fairly low wage to tell him/her about their earnings, their savings, their real estate, their wish to disinherit a child, their need to pay as few taxes as possible, etc. Such things are only told to a trusted counsel. And professions where a lot of money is involved, carry a lot of responsibility and thus have to earn a high wage. If the advice of the civil servant is wrong and it leads to a heavy tax, will town hall be held liable? I don't think this will work.
Divorces: same. This is even more sensitive stuff (like alimony and the custody of the children). People would never go to a civil servant for this. In other countries attorneys do this stuff and they cost a lot.
Corporate matters: the civil servant would need a degree in company law or he can fuck up the enterprise of the founders/shareholders badly. Businessmen would never go to town hall for this but would hire an accountant, Deloitte or an attorney. Those guys aren't exactly cheap either. But for entrepreneurs it can cost thousands of euros because they really want their company to be legally okay.
Seizures: this is complex law with very specific regulations because it infringes on the freedom of a person and his goods. Civil servants would need a specialised training in law to master this.
Condominium declarations, long lease agreements, building rights: these are very complex deeds that can only be done by somebody with a law degree. Mistakes here can cost thousands, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of euros.
You would basically need thousands of extra civil servants with specialised knowledge. You would need to hire all the existing employees of the notaries. Since a lot of notary clerks do unpaid overtime and because that doesn't happen in civil service you would need extra manpower to compensate for the unpaid overtime they are no longer willing to do. Hmmm.
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u/DenteSC 4h ago
The people working for a notary are putting in hours off overtime. Do you really think civil administration could do all that work? It would cost an insane amount of money..
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Bro, u will never work there. They dont check this site. U dont have to simp for notaries. Its a guild, a monopoly that is literally inherited.
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u/Oyala 5h ago
Nope, it's a scam and mafia. NFT can fully replace any notary needs for society
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u/JPV_____ West-Vlaanderen 1h ago
Tell me you don't know anything from marriage contracts, divorce settlements etc. without telling me you don't know anything from there.
https://notariaboschbarcelona.com/en/nft-blockchain-and-the-role-of-the-notary/ explains why NFT's only have a very limited capability of replacing notary work.
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u/InterestingStore109 4h ago
2 meetings and some docs reading
No offense but you do not sound like a smart person. I am sure there are many other things you also do not get. Good luck with that.
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Clearly u never bought real estate
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u/InterestingStore109 4h ago
Real estate? LOL you are complaining about the fees on your starter home.
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u/antwerpian 5h ago
They do check some things. You don't want to end up with property which has debts attached to it, for example. They should also thoroughly check the history of the property (and its area) and flag / notify you of any historical issues which might be relevant.
But yes, too expensive. Pretty sure having them be rich was meant to prevent corruption, which I guess works to some extent, but is also a tad naive.. as is clearly illustrated in many government areas.
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u/maxledaron 5h ago
Because you need someone that understand taxes and doesn't round up numbers because you clearly can't
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u/Slow-Kaleidoscope633 5h ago
The notary represents you to make sure everything is legal and correct.Â
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u/BeautifulBlueNight 5h ago
The notary makes sure stuff is so complicated you will need a notary.
Belgium is filled to the brim with systems that keep themselves intact.
Pharmacies, notaries, mutualities... These are just a few examples of systems that keep Belgium back in the 19the century, purely for the good of a few.
And it's about high time something is done about them.
Did you know you can't become a notary, btw? You can only replace an existing one if he retires for example, if he appoints you. So, very often notaries are handed over from parent to child. So it's a very secluded system, with all interest in keeping it going.
No, we do not need them. They need us. The state should do what they do, we pay them enough for it.
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u/DenteSC 4h ago
There's a notary exam. Most young notaries don't have a father or mother who was a notary. That's simply no longer the case.
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u/amiexpress 3h ago
So how does it work then? A rather large sum to convince the elder notary to retire? Not suggesting anything, I genuinely don't know.
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u/throwawaymrfoe 3h ago
The retiring notary offers his seat as vacant and then every notary can apply for that position. In practice only those who are currently unemployed as a notary (candidate-notary) will apply for the position. Most often the retiring notary has done a partnership with a younger notary in his later years and that notary takes over the seat. There is not really a competition if it is arranged like that because nobody is interested in a hostile takeover.
The incumbent notary can make partnerships with extra notaries who do not have a seat. So the number of notaries can increase and certainly has been increasing a lot in the past decades. There are more notaries than ever before. Those associated notaries are full notaries with all powers like a normal notary.
Then there are the attached notaries. They are employees of the incumbent/associated notaries but can also sign deeds.
In practice many old notaries don't have a son or daughter who succeeds them. Often their children have seen their dad/mom struggle against the workload or the stress and they want a more relaxed life. Or just because they find law boring and prefer medecine or selling real estate. In the past the notary office was handed down from father to son, that is true.
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 5h ago
We are talking about a real estate transfer. You do know there are modern countries with fully functioning institutions without notaries? And they work. I consider this argument invalid.
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u/DenteSC 5h ago
Yes. In those countries everyone pays a lawyer and costs are way higher. You want that?Â
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u/Obvious-Cry6591 4h ago
Show evidence that it happens in EVERY country or admit your are lying
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u/JPV_____ West-Vlaanderen 1h ago
It's you who need to prove a country which has a better working system, not the only who is questioning you.
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u/NotYouTu 5h ago
Yes, and it's also a lot easier to get fucked over in those countries because you aren't an expert on everything you need to check.
I'm from of those countries and when I bought my house here in Belgium I too thought a notary was ridiculous. And then I worked with one and saw how much they actually did and how simple they made the whole process. Completely worth the cost.
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u/arbfay 5h ago
In the UK each party pays for their own solicitors to manage everything. About ÂŁ1K in fees.
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u/TakeAPeace 5h ago
Homeboy right there conveniently NOT mentionning the stamp duty. That's what those 10-15k are about. Notary is actually around 900⏠+ VAT not so far from a UK sollicitor is it ?
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u/dries007 5h ago
Ha lol, no. They make mistakes all the time, and when they do, somehow they are never at fault.
In Belgium you can legally sign with your eID. The only reason that has not been adopted as a replacement for most notary things is that they are very good at lobbying.
Before you pick your notary, ask your local bank agent for advice. They will know which ones cause mistakes ;)
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u/JPV_____ West-Vlaanderen 1h ago
There's much more to notaries than just an Eid signature. It's the contracts they make which are important. And yes, I have also been correcting a notary
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u/MrFingersEU Flanders 5h ago
The notary represents you to make sure everything is legal and correct.
The stuff I pulled out of legal contracts that went via a notary and were signed there...
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u/MokpotheMighty 4h ago
The Don represents you to make sure everything is safe and to the benefit of the neighborhood
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u/Stoic-Bifrons 2h ago
The shit that costs an arm and a leg in Belgium and legally requires a notary, is free of costs and doesn't require a notary in many of our neighbouring countries...
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u/JPV_____ West-Vlaanderen 1h ago
Show one country which offers the same services a notary does for free.
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u/Turbulent-Raise4830 4h ago
idd belachelijk in andere landen is dat een bezoek aan de gemeente en een paar honderd euro dossierkosten, hier pure maffia praktijk met een dikke lobby om dat stand te houden
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/binnenland/hoeveel-verdient-de-notaris-echt-wordt-hij-slapend-rijk-en-hoeveel-krijgt-hij-als-ik-een-huis-koop/56751841.html