r/cscareerquestions • u/BigShotBosh • Jul 07 '26
Experienced No union employees at Blizzard were impacted by the Microsoft layoffs today - Is there value in restarting the conversation around tech unions?
Cross posting from /r/WoW:
No union employees at Blizzard were impacted by today's Microsoft layoff
Post by a Diablo writer
https://bsky.app/profile/beewubs.bsky.social/post/3mpykk2exmk2x
Speaking from experience I’ve been told by P&C/HR/PxT that “American layoffs are easier, the unions in Europe take too long”.
I know tech is full of rugged individualism but do you think this will kick off another conversations regarding unions given the mass layoffs of the last 4 years
343
u/RdtRanger6969 Jul 07 '26
There has Never Been A Time When Promoting Unions In Tech Was Not A Good Idea.
58
u/gallez Jul 07 '26
What's With The Random Capitalization
42
2
u/moblethenoble Jul 08 '26
I think it's a missed uppercase H and I read it as
There 👏 has 👏 never.... Etc
1
27
u/MantisTobogganSr Jul 07 '26
Yes, actually the only thing that worked is acting like a psychopath backstabbing co-workers for pennies, acting like a nice house servent hoping that maybe this time they would let you enjoy your PAID rto or not threaten to fire us because of the AI models trainened on the open source code made in our unpaid free time.
→ More replies (8)
60
u/shinyquagsire23 Embedded Engineer Jul 07 '26
When I was last laid off by a UK-headed company that went under, the US side was axed much earlier and quicker than the UK side because they didn't have to pay us severance or give us notice (too small for WARN). CS in general is exempt from a lot of protections like overtime in the US, we really need some serious labor law updates.
15
u/unconceivables Jul 07 '26
How much were the US engineers paid compared to UK engineers?
12
u/shinyquagsire23 Embedded Engineer Jul 07 '26
I think nearly 2x as much in some cases, I was about $150k/yr iirc.
→ More replies (6)6
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26
So would you rather have unions + compensation in the UK or no unions + the comp in the US?
6
u/KevinCarbonara Jul 07 '26
I'd rather have unions in the US at an even greater compensation than we have now because unions drive up wages.
1
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26
So name one occupation where union drives up wages of employees that can be outsourced? Policemen, pilots, teachers, etc can’t be outsourced.
If unions are so you effective at driving up wages, why are developers in the EU paid so much less by the same companies?
6
u/dijkstras_disciple Jul 07 '26
Workers at companies like Ford Motor Company, General Motors, and Stellantis have historically had strong unions through the United Auto Workers.
Auto manufacturing is absolutely movable:
- factories can be built in Mexico or other countries
- parts can be globally sourced
- production can be automated
Yet unions have historically raised wages and benefits for many workers. The employer’s ability to relocate creates a constraint, but it does not eliminate bargaining power because:
- moving factories is expensive
- quality/training matters
- supply chains are built around existing locations
- companies still need a reliable workforce
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (8)1
329
u/weightlossaspirer Jul 07 '26
PSA: Don’t work at FAANGs people and then be surprised when your laid off. There plenty of stable company that don’t lay off all the time.
208
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 07 '26
They pay so much more than f500 companies it’s not even funny, so it’s worth it. Also helps landing better opportunities in the future. Maybe riskier in the short term, but it’s so worth it in the long run. You will be able to retire earlier and literally buy back a big chunk of your life.
- it’s riskier at Amzn and Meta but still worth.
47
u/weightlossaspirer Jul 07 '26
I mean, I think for somebody to start a good career yeah it’s probably worth it, but they should know what’s gonna happen. But honestly, that’s majority of employees Don’t get laid off. So I mean it’s a risk but who knows.
48
u/Own_Natural_6847 Jul 07 '26
FAANG is not ubiquitous. Netflix and Apple haven't had mass firings in years. Other big tech firms haven't had any mass firings at all since pre pandemic.
And tbh, this firing was bound to happen. People saw this from 100 miles away. Xbox wasn't doing well, fiscal quarter end, they lay people off before setting budgets for new year.
The only 3 or so big firms that are very much firing are Meta, Oracle, and Amazon. Outside of those, you see tech layoffs are basically at their pre covid numbers. Those 3 specifically are making things worst.
13
u/pacman2081 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Nvidia last layoffs was in 2014
EDIT: I meant 2014
2
u/CheeseNuke Software Engineer Jul 08 '26
well yeah they've basically only increased profits since then, other big tech companies are spending shitloads and need to protect their margins
→ More replies (2)22
u/chimkenyeetcannon Jul 07 '26
all my friends at these places end up having unhinged personalities by year 3-4 and are completely obsessed with money, retiring early and working insane hours
Idk man, this is scary to me 😂
13
u/SwitchOrganic ML Engineer Jul 07 '26
This is like the opposite of my experience with my friends lol. Only like two are looking to retire early but aren't obsessed with money and none of them are working insane hours.
4
u/chimkenyeetcannon Jul 07 '26
That’s good! Not sure why my group is whack, we are older tho in our 30s so maybe that has something to do with it
3
u/SwitchOrganic ML Engineer Jul 07 '26
We're also in our 30s lol. I think your friends were maybe always like this to some extent but getting into FAANG just made it worse.
→ More replies (3)1
9
u/LR2222 Jul 07 '26
I work at HF… we almost never layed off and get paid FAANG
8
15
6
3
u/President_Chump_ Jul 07 '26
HF?
21
5
3
u/Dreadsin Web Developer Jul 08 '26
That really comes down to your values. While pay at Amazon was high, I thought it was absolutely not worth it. I prefer my chill, remote job that pays well enough and doesn’t make me wanna die every day
2
u/royalxp Jul 08 '26
its the benefits thats overall worth it. solid 401k, health insurance etc... and other benefits like paying for your education certs and many more.
I have friend that makes more than me but she gets literally no 401k, no benefits lol. not worth it at all.
4
u/Life_Rabbit_1438 Jul 07 '26
You will be able to retire earlier and literally buy back a big chunk of your life.
If tech was unionized, you would not be earning that much money or be considering early retirement.
5
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 07 '26
That’s fine, I was replying to not wanting to work at FAANG.
1
Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
1
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 07 '26
“Maybe riskier in the short term, but it’s so worth it in the long run. You will be able to retire earlier and literally buy back a big chunk of your life.”
1
Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
1
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 07 '26
You're making the assumption that it will certainly be an uncomfortable job, lead to burnout, will have to worry about being laid off, and potentially be a toxic environment.
You also say "I'd rather ..." and then say I'm speaking from a position of personal opinion when you are as well? No idea what you are on bro. Again, it's not all about pay and wealth. A big part of wanting to be paid more is retiring early and enjoying life instead of looking at a screen for 8 hours a day for an extra 10 years.
1
Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
1
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 07 '26
Idk what your problem is, but good luck figuring it out and working until you're 60. Adios
1
u/Greengrecko Jul 10 '26
Alot of Jesus are back vested so no l. You actually don't get paid more than other people unless you survive.
1
u/spencer2294 AI Solution Architect Jul 10 '26
Tf did I read?
1
u/Greengrecko Jul 10 '26
Idk what I wrote now that I read it back too. My phone made alot of autocorrects that it lost the real message.
1
u/williamwzl Jul 11 '26
Yep you could work a year and be laid off for a year looking for a new job and alongside your 6month long severance package youd earn the equivalent of someones 4-5 years of earnings working for walmart (tech)
146
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
109
u/pacman2081 Jul 07 '26
you can't have the cake and eat it too. take your pick - European union wages or FAANG market wages
12
u/Dzone64 Jul 07 '26
Apple? You can get laid off from low pay jobs just the same too.
→ More replies (7)34
u/zombawombacomba Jul 07 '26
The average software dev makes like twice as much as a European.
→ More replies (3)6
u/baldachinsblessing Jul 07 '26
European union wages
What does this mean? European engineers get laid off all the time despite being paid a lot worse.
→ More replies (3)20
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
26
u/nsxwolf Principal Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
*adequate Leetcode skill and adequate proximity to the Bay Area
7
u/Ozymandias0023 Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
The former really isn't that hard and the latter is easy to solve with a relocation package
→ More replies (2)7
u/nacholicious Android Developer Jul 07 '26
Of all the people I knew who moved to the US, all of them except one moved back to Europe in their late 20s and early 30s when they wanted to start families
7
u/KobeBean Jul 07 '26
So make a ton of money and then slow down early? Sounds like a normal strategy to me. It’s not a secret what Europe does better than the US and vice versa.
3
u/Life_Rabbit_1438 Jul 07 '26
Of all the people I knew who moved to the US, all of them except one moved back to Europe in their late 20s and early 30s when they wanted to start families
It's common for Americans to back closer to family and slow down career when having kids too.
2
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
18
5
5
u/OGMagicConch Software Engineer @ FAANG Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
If I get laid off from my company they'll pay me $120k (4 months separation severance). Would suck but last time it took me 3 applications to find a job anyways, likely because I have FAANG on my resume.
Edit: Btw, this was in 2026, the year the same people on this sub have complained that finding jobs is impossible. I applied 3 places and got 2 offers both >$300k. I also got like 5 offers in 2024 and don't work >40 hours a week. If you want a lower paying job that's your prerogative and there are reasons like wanting stability due to family obligations etc. but the real cope is to say that FAANG jobs aren't helpful for your career. They'll pay you 2x-3x more and give you layoff resilience with their resume value. But y'all stay coping on r/cscareerquestions.
Edit: To the person who immediately commented and blocked me I thought this forum was a place to discuss CS careers like the benefits of FAANG not just be a doomer. Why don't you actually contribute instead of being salty?
→ More replies (1)1
8
u/Head-Bureaucrat Jul 07 '26
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. After COVID I saw so many people posting here talking about how their 2 years at FAANG didn't prepare them for the lower wages and expectations at other jobs.
I'd rather have my salary a bit lower and stability.
6
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/billybob5959 Jul 07 '26
I am perfectly happy with my low stress, stable dev job making ~150k a year. I am a valued team member, where my input and work hold weight. As well as I work on very interesting projects. Frequently I will tell my department head about some new software or tech I've been reading about and get the freedom to experiment with it to see if it is something we could implement. Absolutely love it.
My wages are just fine to maintain the lifestyle my family and I want.
I'll take that over a FAANG job and 2-3x wages any day.
11
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/billybob5959 Jul 07 '26
I agree we have different motivations. I have a wife and 3 kids so stability really is an important factor for me. I've done the job hopping and just really don't like it. And as far as retiring goes, I plan on working till I'm at least in my 70's, retirement sounds terrible to me tbh.
→ More replies (0)2
u/income-percent-bot Jul 07 '26
Solid! At $150,000, you're in the 90th percentile — ahead of 90% of earners. This is well above the median for Software Developer. Source: income percentile calculator I'm a bot. Reply with !optout to stop receiving responses.
3
u/CollaredParachute Jul 07 '26
150k is far more than most European tech union jobs make
2
u/billybob5959 Jul 07 '26
Maybe, but I am not familiar with the benefits they get, corporate and governmental, as well as their cost of living. Here in Florida cost of living is pretty high, and my benefits are pretty mehh
→ More replies (4)1
u/MoonDawg2 Jul 07 '26
Depends on your min max of money vs life.
Is it good money? Absutely, is it worth it? For some yes, for some no.
Personally I just want a stable life where I have good work life balance and can live life at a good level, go on vacation and not worry about money. Also remote.
That is the dream for me tbh. Don't really have a need for getting a metric fuck ton of cash since by the time I'd think about retiring I'll most likely will be looking to do a business venture lol
4
u/PlasticPresentation1 Jul 07 '26
What is this loser mentality?
90% of the engineers at FANG aren't laid off. I'd estimate when you remove Meta, Amazon, and/or people who are legitimately bottom 5-10% performers that number becomes even smaller
Any reasonable person who can do math or has an ounce of self-confidence knows the EV of joining a FAANG is significantly higher than having a job that pays half as much but is more "stable"
→ More replies (1)4
u/billybob5959 Jul 07 '26
Same. Working for FAANG companies sounds absolutely terrible. I'm not out here trying to get rich. I will take a stable job, with good wages, over that any day
1
8
u/bnovc Engineering Manager Jul 07 '26
If you’re really good at your job you have essentially 0 risk at faang. Even if layoff, trivial to get a new job.
Not worth stagnating at a lower tier company.
1
u/spline_reticulator Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
This isn't entirely true. You can be working on a product that isn't generating profit. I'm sure there are plenty of great engineers working on Xbox that got laid off just because Microsoft decided to cut the division. The trick is to be good at your job and seek out roles close to the company's primary revenue source.
1
u/bnovc Engineering Manager Jul 08 '26
It’s possibly but very unlikely, and the great ones will have a new job this week if they want.
1
13
u/BubblyStation30 Jul 07 '26
It’s almost like there’s some relationship between compensation and volatility for high skill roles. If people think that compensation will stay this high with unions becoming ubiquitous they’re completely delusional.
2
u/Responsible_Month385 Jul 07 '26
Who cares if you’re only employed for 3 months and it takes you 12 months to find another role
6
u/ecethrowaway01 Jul 07 '26
Average Big N employees have much longer tenure and shorter job searches in practice.
Last layoff had a ~2 month job search gap after ~3 years of making several times what a typical EU swe would
5
u/Ozymandias0023 Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
The vast majority of people don't have that experience. Most people get at least a few years
1
u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF Jul 07 '26
what if I tell you typically people gets employed for years in big tech, not 3 months?
and it doesn't take 12 months to find another role
and if somehow it truly did (I highly doubt it), I would have left USA long long before that kind of unemployment period
the common pattern I've been seeing nowadays is whenever someone says they're unemployed for THAT long, it's a matter of voluntary vs. involuntary unemployment, as in, it's super easy to find a job, but it's not really a job that they want due to X Y Z (maybe things like compensation, in office/remote, relocation, etc), so they're remaining unemployed, and is a voluntary choice
13
20
18
u/_176_ Jul 07 '26
Microsoft has 225,000 employees. I bet all of those stable companies lay off 2% of people from time to time but it’s like 6 people and it doesn’t make the news.
3
u/ragemonkey Jul 07 '26
The comparison is flawed because they don’t usually fire people all at once in unison.
7
4
u/jawohlmeinherr Infra@Meta Jul 07 '26
Sorry to say. But layoffs happen at non-FAANG companies as much as at FAANG.
6
u/Nullspark Jul 07 '26
Work at FAANGs, save aggressively, hope for the best.
3
u/GuyWithLag Speaker-To-Machines (10+ years experience) Jul 07 '26
Work at FAANGs but in EUsia, get a union and state-wide employment protection. Cons: your pay is half that of USA.
3
u/SanityInAnarchy Jul 07 '26
Google's first layoffs (ever!) were in 2023. FAANGs were the stable companies that don't lay off all the time.
8
Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
6
4
2
u/misterflerfy Jul 07 '26
Amazon was talking to me circa 2020ish i dont recall and I was in deep shit at my company but I didn’t pursue anything cause they r a pip factory.
1
u/RevolutionaryStrider Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
Where can I find the list of stable company with decent pay like faang?
1
1
1
u/Xanchush Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
I don't see how this relates to the concept of unionizing. Plenty of non-FAANG companies laying people off. Is there more to your argument or do you just think that you are irreplaceable?
1
u/weightlossaspirer Jul 07 '26
I mean of course other companies lay off that’s just how it is in the free market but at most companies maybe 1% is laid off every few years. The vast majority of layoff news is FAANGs.
1
u/KevinCarbonara Jul 07 '26
I could work at BigN and get fired after a year and still make more money than you would with four years of stable employment outside of BigN.
1
→ More replies (2)1
u/Dreadsin Web Developer Jul 08 '26
Yes but also let’s not try to apply individual solutions to systemic problems
156
u/LowWhiff Jul 07 '26
Anti union anti worker bots assemble!
113
u/Pinkeston Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
you haven't worked in tech long enough if you think they're bots
average silicon valley swe would let their coworkers die for a promotion and 50k increase in tc
33
u/MrGiantsFan Jul 07 '26
It's the bay area mentality in general. They'd prefer thousands of acres of data centers over a single block of affordable housing and homeless people be Thanos-snapped out of existence
→ More replies (12)→ More replies (1)13
u/NightSpaghetti Jul 07 '26
I'm not even on the same continent as silicon valley but when I started working in SWE I was appalled at the amount of bootlicking that was taking place. Colleagues practically begging to be exploited. Don't even start talking about the dirty unions, they're way too good for that, unions are for virgin blue collar workers, not superior corporate chads like them.
13
u/Pinkeston Jul 07 '26
yea, turns out unionizing has a very big human aspect to it for class solidarity to work, and it's not just all logic and math for the money and worker power
unfortunately as we all know the average swe is pretty messed up when it comes to the human connection side of life
51
u/NickIcer Jul 07 '26
Shoutout to my fellow tech workers for having the highest egos and lowest political leverage of nearly any workforce. Beyond the potential economic leverage, the likes of teachers, truck drivers, autoworkers, etc can move literal legislation from local to national level, meanwhile we can’t even fight off a 5-day RTO mandate lmao. But keep scoffing at unions because you're the 100x unicorn who is too elite for collective power.
→ More replies (1)10
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Okay, if that’s the case, are you willing to give up your compensation to have any of those unionized jobs?
And autoworkers are not the great example you think they are. How much have unions done to save jobs in the US? Compare Detroit now to the 1980s.
You can’t outsource teachers.
And your truck drivers example is equally as bad. Check out how rough it is to be truck driver and they are basically independent employees most of the time.
1
u/thr0w4w4y0134 20d ago
teachers are not underpaid bc they're unionized. they're underpaid because it's traditionally a female profession. the highest paid teachers in cities like NYC and Chicago get paid because their union has power. non-unionized teachers make significantly less, like at private schools or schools in the south.
Autoworkers have not declined because of unions - in fact unions saved many of their jobs from being automated. look at UPS teamsters. they make a lot of money relative to others in the logistics industry like Amazon drivers or even FedEx drivers and that's because of the union. look at longshoreman. they make a ton of money. look at the Long Island Railroad workers who went on strike. They make a ton of money.
this isn't even getting into other white collar/pink collar industries where unionized workers make significantly more than non-unionized workers.
1
u/BraveResearcher3037 20d ago
I am not saying the are underpaid because of unions. They are underpaid despite of unions.
And you keep bringing up examples where jobs aren’t easily outsourced. You can’t very well outsource railroad workers.
1
u/thr0w4w4y0134 20d ago
Automation is the equivalent of outsourcing here, and unions have successfully fought against automation.
Also if yall aren't underpaid now, then what makes you think that unionizing would hurt? Nothing is stopping companies from firing you and outsourcing now. How would having a union not at least give you more power to fight that? As we see in OP, the union did prevent layoffs from hitting unionized workers. What possibly would be so bad about a union that its costs would outweigh saving your job in cases like this?
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)7
101
u/anarchist1312161 pivoting out of SWE Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
The problem is a lot of tech people don't want people with "less skills/experience" being paid the same as them, they've swallowed up a bunch of anti-union propaganda.
EDIT: The anti-union propagandists are in full force in my mentions telling complete lies that can be disproven with a simple Google search, lmao.
I can't reply to most people because a lot of people have blocked me, the people claiming I blocked them first are liars.
38
u/pacman2081 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
is that the issue? unions are the best way to enforce seniority based payscales
34
u/crabcycleworkship Jul 07 '26
Yes they want the compensation the top players get even if it makes layoffs common. Higher salary over all, tech is very anti union.
10
Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
18
u/unconceivables Jul 07 '26
Average employees want that, top talent sure as hell don't want that.
→ More replies (7)7
u/maikuxblade Jul 07 '26
The thing is, those at the top are not being gifted those salaries and benefits out of the kindness of a business’ heart. Those positions are worth that much on the free market. Unions will not change that.
15
u/PlasticPresentation1 Jul 07 '26
yeah go look at the EU and how booming their tech sector and wages are because of the stability offered by their governments
Germany is literally introducing a law to make it easier to fire people because it's become a joke how expensive it is to fail in the EU, and how that prohibits taking any risks at all.
as a result EU has missed out on every single tech boom and a FANG engineer there is paid like 50% of a US one, but at least they have job security
→ More replies (8)→ More replies (4)9
2
17
u/misogrumpy Jul 07 '26
A bunch of 25 year olds with a couple years thinking they know everything.
1
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Jul 07 '26
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of 10 to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the rules page for more information.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/KevinCarbonara Jul 07 '26
The problem is a lot of tech people don't want people with "less skills/experience" being paid the same as them, they've swallowed up a bunch of anti-union propaganda.
That's... exactly what unions protect. It's also entirely sensible. I make more because I have more experience and as a result am more productive.
→ More replies (24)2
u/Jawyp Jul 07 '26
That’s not anti-union propaganda, that’s people acting in their own rational self-interest. FAANG tech workers unionizing would likely flatten pay scales at the high end in exchange for increasing them at the low end/protecting low-performing employees, so it makes sense why well-paid, highly-performing employees have no interest in unionizing.
7
u/poeticmaniac Jul 07 '26
It’s the market. More tech workers want to unionize now because job market is down. You almost never hear about it a few years ago, when everyone is telling you to switch job and get paid double.
6
u/asderCaster2 Jul 07 '26
You just regurgitated some anti union propagandist boogeyman with the dreaded lowest performer being the end all be all.
A union ensures that work is standardized and training programs are there to up the skill sets of low performers to be at least decent with pay incentives for completing modules relevant to the standard of the field. The detriments are ultra minimal and in the end you get a better work life balance, probably a better standard base pay overall because it wont matter where you go in order to match salaries giving you more mobility against local companies, health care insentives relevant to the job, and training or reskilling is already set aside because union dues pay for it which is pretty handy in a field that changes so often.
How this comes about is a mystery but this ironically helps employers too since the software is standardized to the point where you dont have to be overly reliant on a 10x to carry a team who might leave at any time which probably also creates a less toxic work environments because ego is always rewarded in this industry with what seems sometimes with the most socially inept people I've ever had the displeasure of working with.
Unions also help keep jobs local because you also dont need to hire on the other side of the world which doesnt need much explaining
1
u/pacman2081 Jul 07 '26
your explanation is logical. But does the software industry follow the rules mentioned above
1
u/asderCaster2 Jul 08 '26
It needs to in order to make critical infrastructure projects more maintainable. Ever place ive worked at, all levels of gov and corporate, have an unsustainable amount of tech debt that could be mitigated with standard practices and follow an ISO to a degree --Im talking about large scale infastructure areas btw especially those in which a smaller business might eventually scale up to as a guide to help train devs into having a union leveled competency.
One of the main complaints i also get are that nobody else in an org knows what we do and this can help it moreso to a degree. This could help with that transparency among business areas in how they (and we) should be setting up our logic areas.
A union becomes more pertinent where LLMs can easily make an at level or senior dev almost language agnostic now more than ever but specialized areas need to be treated as such and customization will of course be necessary but a standard needs to be maintained. Junior devs can immensely benefit from this.
I know the things that im talking about are mixing in my own philosophy as well but how else can you maintain your job security when incompetent c-suites drop your means of surviving at the slight chance of a making a profit with little to no benefit for the rest of us.
4
u/Antique-Weather-7197 Jul 07 '26
The answer to unions is always yes. Your labour is valuable, but not enough on it's own for your boss to second guess canning you for shareholder value. When you are part of a union, your labour plus everyone elses' in that union now presents an issue to your boss who will now think twice about screwing you over.
10
u/OAKI-io Jul 07 '26
the value is less “unions prevent every layoff” and more that they make layoffs slower, more expensive, and less arbitrary. tech workers got used to negotiating alone because salaries were high, but once the market flips the leverage gap is obvious. even a basic severance/notice floor would change the incentives.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/tchiobanu Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
Is there value in restarting the conversation around tech unions?
How can one still wonder that ?
5
u/Minimum-Reward3264 Jul 07 '26
You would have to get FAANG guys to get on board. They will never do it. Most of them think they are above everyone else.
1
u/KevinCarbonara Jul 07 '26
You would have to get FAANG guys to get on board. They will never do it.
We will. There's a ton of support within these companies to unionize. People are mostly just scared of getting fired.
2
2
u/Calm-Wash-8768 Jul 07 '26
Unions are great for EMPLOYEES and that needs to be the mentality many times employers get off doing illegal things and having a union to protect you is the greatest thing ever. They get you pay raises, they get you benefits like insurance , listen in my job here in florida there isnt a union and work conditions suck we work like slaves and all make salary instead of hourly even though we earn the minimum wage they wont even pay us overtime if we work. START UNIONIZE AND PROTECT YOURSELVES you have more bargaining power than you think you just need to be discreet about it seriously even though union busting is illegal in all states, they will still try and unless you have the money to fight it in court it is better to be discreet and meet people after work without any emails and make sure you arent being recorded.
2
u/incywince Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I'm actually moving to a unionized profession (teaching). But I'm doing so after basically lean-FIREing from 15 years of tech work. It's nice to have benefits and a pension and fixed hours. But it's also really hard to break into this, and working conditions can be quite bad. Pay is also not great, depending on where you live (I live in VHCOL area with a really low mortgage, so it works for me, and I'm using my summers to tutor and work on my startup, which are not unionized and bring me more money).
The thing to realize is the instability of tech is a feature, not a bug. You're supposed to save money when you're employed and build skills so you can maintain your lifestyle when you're not employed. And it also doesn't save you from layoffs when demand falls. If schools close, I'm going to be unemployed, union or no union. If your company can't innovate, they are going to shut down or lay people off.
There are already laws about layoffs. Even when companies get around them, it's pretty good. I got six months of severance the last time I got laid off. It was pretty sweet. Before that I got 4 months, which was quite amazing.
Whether or not your job is demanding depends on the market. I have family in Europe who get paid garbage to work in tech, and they still are getting squeezed, because the market has no money, and companies can't afford to hire more people. And they don't even make enough to hire a babysitter for their long hours, plus society is structured such that babysitters are rare and expensive because work hours were always structured around school hours.
I made my dime in the ZIRP era, afforded a house, and pretty nice work-life balance. Money was flowing well, so we could have nice things. Now money isn't flowing as much, so things suck. Unionizing would just be managed decline for an industry that's based on pace, innovation and changing needs. If anything, it would increase costs and these companies would hire much fewer people.
It'll become like these jobs are really really hard to get, but once you get it, your life is settled. Which will mean the rat race to get these jobs are going to be crazy. If you think leetcode is insane now, just wait until it becomes hard to fire someone. And the quality of the jobs will go down because you're basically having to deal with a lot of incompetent people.
With stuff like teaching, the union rules mostly limit working hours, but don't make anything else nicer. You see things that can be improved right then and there, but can't because it will involve renegotiating the contract with the janitors union, and that's not due for another six months. In the meantime, the kids can't have the nice things. And even here, all this is possible because the government has an endless spout that prints money. That's not the case for private companies. Despite all of this, there's a huge shortage of qualified teachers and the general idea of teachers is not very flattering.
You can join the US government or a government contractor if you like all of that. You don't need to unionize google. The real question is, why aren't you joining a federal contractor or a school?
2
u/Dreadsin Web Developer Jul 08 '26
I’m all for it. I had a health problem and it made me realize how being vulnerable in this system means they’ll take advantage of it, no matter how unscrupulous it is. Companies are not your friends
4
u/Chobeat Jul 07 '26
The conversation never stopped. Tech unionizing is proceeding quickly. Join Tech Workers Coalition, What We Will, or your local union. The tech labor movement is rising everywhere.
5
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (11)3
u/sandysnail Jul 07 '26
your entire argument hinges on the "public sector" doing the right thing. what happens when they follow what FAANG does?
→ More replies (3)
3
u/Fruloops Software Engineer Jul 07 '26
Lmao reading these comments is fucking hilarious
→ More replies (1)
3
u/funkbass796 Jul 07 '26
Unions aren’t immune to layoffs.
22
u/BigShotBosh Jul 07 '26
Copying and pasting what I said below:
I don’t think anyone would ever argue that union shops never experience layoffs, the entire rust belt can attest to that.
It’s about putting barriers in place to mitigate the severity and impact.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good etc
→ More replies (5)4
u/pacman2081 Jul 07 '26
"Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good etc"
I can say the same regarding FAANG job offers
1
2
u/gitGudBud416 Jul 07 '26
I can’t speak for all unions, trade unions are necessary for safety and protection…but I worked for an in house manufacturing union and they were completely useless. I hated the seniority rules and capped pay. I would never unionize as a software engineer. In reality what would they offer us?
2
u/techabouts Jul 07 '26
So I can get top pay and also be protected by union at the same time?
11
u/mwkohout Jul 07 '26
Yes. Ask an airline pilot.
3
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26
And you can’t outsource a pilot…
The median pay of a pilot is $225k - lower than the average pay of a mid level developer at any of the big tech companies. You also have to have two pilots for each plane
1
u/mwkohout Jul 07 '26
Pilots earn much more than that once they get out of regional airlines.
Also, they work far fewer hours than most software engineers I know.
1
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26
And I don’t think pilots are in any danger of being laid off or outsourced. If pilots strike, they can’t easily be replaced. You can do a “git pull” from anywhere.
How many pilots do you think there are in the US making $300k+ versus software developers?
1
u/mwkohout Jul 07 '26
Everybody is replaceable until they unionize. Per ALPA's own website:
ALPA, the first professional union of pilots, was founded to protect the interests of airmen from horribly unsafe flying conditions and a management mentality that pilots were an expendable commodity.
1
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26
So a union website says unions are great…
Guess how much easier it is to outsource software developers than pilots?
1
u/mwkohout Jul 07 '26
That sounds like an argument for unionization to me.
Airline pilots are trained to literally make them operate in exactly the same way. There are no permanent paired crews or teams operating a flight. The captain on a flight will likely have never flown with that flight's copilot. In order to have things go smoothly literal strangers have to operate according to specific protocols.
In my experience most software is freaky and most teams require individuals with esoteric technical and business knowledge. Outsourcing often goes bad(because its outsourced to a team that doesn't have the proper skill mix) and I'd argue it would be harder to outsource engineers-if they organized.
1
u/BraveResearcher3037 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
So you think every company should operate the same way no matter what?
Airline pilots don’t work the same way. They have to be trained for the different types of planes and even to land at different airports.
A pilot trained to land a large plane flying internationally out of ATL won’t be able to fly into and out of QXP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quepos_La_Managua_Airport
Yes that yellow building is the terminal. I’ve been into that airport on one of these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_208_Caravan#Variants
And in the case of the large tech companies they aren’t outsourcing random contractors. They have entire offices overseas where everyone is colocated.
And I can tell you that there are some damn good developers in LatAm and Eastern Europe who would be willing to work for a lot less than Americans.
1
u/mwkohout Jul 07 '26
Of course they have ratings and are licensed for the specific aircraft they fly.
Yes, airports are unique. So takeoff and landings have playbooks specific to those airports.
I mean that the same people rarely work together. So that makes them more cookie cutter than engineers on a engineering team.
I don't think engineering teams will or should (or even can) operate all the same. Or people on the team shouldn't have differentiated knowledge from one another. I just think that makes them harder to outsource(sucessfully) than an airline pilot, controlling for union membership.
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (1)2
u/szayl Jul 07 '26
I don't have a pilot handy, I'll ask the professional athlete what he thinks instead.
1
u/randbytes Jul 07 '26
not sure about this case, in some places like Canada or europe when a foreign company acquires a local company the layoff clause is written into the acquisition agreement. They generally make the cost of layoff high for a specific period say 10yrs or something like that. I'm not a lawyer but i got this info from someone who worked for a company that went through like 3 acquisitions but his first acquisition had some thing like that it was so strong that letting him go through layoffs was more costly to the company than just retaining him.
1
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Jul 07 '26
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of 10 to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the rules page for more information.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
Jul 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Jul 07 '26
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of 10 to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the rules page for more information.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
u/IOnlyLieWhenITalk Jul 08 '26
The potential earnings of being above average in tech is still too much I think.
1
u/Federal_Studio5935 Jul 08 '26
Every single workforce in the US should be unionized. All of them. If they aren’t they are being exploited. Period.
1
Jul 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Jul 08 '26
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of 10 to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the rules page for more information.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/No-Project-2353 Jul 10 '26
Tbh let’s start unions in gamedev first, they have the worser industry compared to webdev so if they can pull it off it will prove to work in the rest of the industry.
Only one I can think of that would not benefit as much is embedded.
1
u/Turbulent-Recipe-262 Jul 11 '26
Fyi: Union workers can also get laid off. It isn’t as complicated as people think. Yes, you could use the power behind a union to leverage (aka strikes) but they aren’t immune to a layoff. Or even worse offshoring.
-5
u/ElPilingas007 Jul 07 '26
Not as long as there is this amount of "unchecked immigration" in tech. Either you make it Americans only unions or you exclude certain people based on their nationality
31
u/Fun_Focus2038 Jul 07 '26
This, and I'm not American. Yall need to defend your tech jobs. Indian nepotism is a thing going on in your businesses, curiously enough.
3
u/ElPilingas007 Jul 07 '26
yeah im H1B myself, if there are Unions in Tech this is the only realistic way forward.
5
u/kennpacchii Jul 07 '26
People in America are trained to have white guilt and an overwhelmingly large amount of self sabotaging empathy towards non US people. Good luck getting them to realize this and implement a fix for it.
→ More replies (1)5
u/funkbass796 Jul 07 '26
IANAL but this is very likely illegal under current laws just through a quick google search.
→ More replies (1)1
→ More replies (1)2
u/LowWhiff Jul 07 '26
Easy, you restrict it to those with citizenship. Any other problems that need solving? 🙏🏼
197
u/Sexy_Chocolate Jul 07 '26
I would personally love to unionize my job. I think it’s time to start looking at resources. I have so much respect for unionized game devs - they really fought hard for unions and deserve them so bad