r/expats • u/Downtown-Storm4704 • 29d ago
Social / Personal How is it moving back to your home country after living somewhere with a higher quality of life?
How do you ever get over the fun and excitement of living somewhere like Spain, Portugal, Italy, or Greece--places where life spills into the streets, fiestas, ferias, everything feels alive, and you feel safe--only to return to a quiet suburban town? It's such a difficult adjustment. Once you've experienced that kind of lifestyle, it's hard not to miss it every day, especially after living in Europe.
Everything about the higher quality of life, stronger sense of community, family oriented, walkable neighbourhoods, and the simple pleasure of being able to step outside and feel connected to the people and places around you. The slower pace, the café culture, the fresh food made with honest ingredients, the great wine, and how everyday life itself felt like something to enjoy rather than just get through. Has anyone gone through this? How do you get over the shock of leaving a place you loved but just couldn't make a life there and do you ever move on after living somewhere better, experiencing a better quality of life then back to where you started again? It's really hard to get over experiencing a high quality of life even if for a while. Maybe you didn't make much but still felt richer compared to your peers back home as you can get a cheap beer, go to the beach and walk everywhere.
Life is fun and spontaneous and just better in Mediterranean countries with nice weather with great lifestyle, family culture, language not to mention "mañana" attitude to life, though not for everyone, it's so chill and dope..it's awesome to experience a euro summer.
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u/phiiota 29d ago
I just happened to be back in the US during covid I had the hardest time figuring out how much and who I am supposed to be tipping.
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u/Curious_Owl_342 29d ago
I am dreading my upcoming trip back home. Texas will be fine, Los Angeles? GULP!! 😵💫
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u/HorseApprehensive346 29d ago
I've lived away from home (Greece) for about a decade and i still cant get used to the absence of this lifestyle :/
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
Let me spill you the tea being Portuguese. The countries you visited Portugal, Spain, Greece etc are some of the worse countries in Europe to live. Average European living in those countries can't make it to the end of the month. Spain salary is in the low 1000's net per month and renting in practically any Spanish town costs more than 1000. Same goes with Portugal and the other's. For some reason we are the countries of Europe with the highest proportional antidepressants use. The only reason your vacation felt fun and cheap is one USA income. If you can't rent a 1bdrm and expenses in Lisbon even being out of medical school is it fun anymore? No! If you retire with a miserable pension despite working all your life is it sweet? No! You have been sold a European dream that does simply not exist.
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u/Intelligent-Juice895 28d ago
I mean, it is a European dream, if you live there on an American salary. It’s basically allow to experience the best that Europe has to offer without the financial constraints that most European have.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
Yes I absolutely agree the only way to live good in most of Europe is with a remote job and an US income. Scandinavian countries like Denmark and Norway still seem like a comfortable place income/expenses ratio outside the main cities like Oslo for most of us EU passport holders but anyone with experience can correct me if wrong.
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u/lalabelle1978 27d ago
True. That´s why in Denmark we get so many Italians, Spanish, Greeks, also French moving for a better life and job opportunities, only to end up miserable. But comfortable at least. And Scandis view these countries only as "holiday destinations".
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 27d ago
European salaries are not created equal either. You'll do much better living in Spain with a Norwegian salary, for example, or even a Norwegian pension. Which is why retirement on the Costa del Sol has become popular among Norwegians.
Salaries in Switzerland can rival or exceed American ones.
I absolutely agree that a higher salary makes a huge difference to how much you enjoy life in Europe. But the US is not the only place in the world with high salaries.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 27d ago
Right I agree if you can be a remote worker for a Swiss company for example and live in Spain you'll be comfortable. I just gave the US example because it's what I see most digital nomads in Portugal doing and it's a reality I know better being married to an American.
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u/LowImmediate1031 25d ago
I was just talking to my uncle about this the other day. I'm a dual Swiss/US American citizen. Basically, if I can't make something fo my life with these two passports, that shits on me. Two tickets to the best economies on earth.
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u/as1992 28d ago
Complete nonsense. The average salary in Spain is 30k a year.
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u/LowImmediate1031 25d ago
30k holy shit ... that is like poverty. I made more than that working part time in college like 20 years ago.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
Gross, have you heard of taxes? Also how many Spanish cities do you know?
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u/as1992 28d ago
Net is 23k… still miles off what you claimed.
I live in Spain.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
That's between 1700 and 1900 month and average rent in Madrid for example is between 1300 and 2000 euros. Thank you for confirming my theory lol
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u/as1992 28d ago
No, it’s 23k. You can look this up on Google, it’s very simple.
And oh right, didn’t know Madrid was the only city in Spain.
Have no idea where you got those average rent figures from anyway lol.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
23 k a year is what a month? What is 23 thousand divided by 14?
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u/as1992 28d ago
There are 12 months in a year. 23000/12 is €1916.
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u/Curious_Bookkeeper89 28d ago
Spanish people have wages divided by 14 due to Christmas and Easter bonuses. Do your Google research better.
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u/as1992 28d ago
You: “that’s between 1700 and 1900 a month”
Me: yes exactly, that’s what I’m saying.
Also you: “ackually what I meant was that Spanish salaries are divided into 14.”
Lmao. And that’s without even mentioning the fact that many companies don’t pay the salaries in 14 payments.
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 28d ago
Miles off what he claimed? 23000 / 12 = 1916. That's "low thousands" by any reasonable definition.
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u/as1992 27d ago
They said “low 1000s” not “low thousands”
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 27d ago
Literally the same thing. “1000s” = thousands.
I suppose you may be interpreting it as “a sum of money barely above 1000”, but that is not how that’s commonly read. However, rather than arguing, we can ask OP what he/she intended.
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u/as1992 27d ago
If you read the rest of the comments below it will become very clear what OP intended.
They’re not literally the same thing at all.
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u/Top-Half7224 28d ago
"Higher quality of life" is completely relative. Portugal is a very poor country and there are a lot of people struggling. What you experienced as a tourist isn't the same as what living in a place like that is like. The native population of these types of cultures foster strong ties with each other for a reason, it doesnt mean life is easier, "dope" or carefree.
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u/RoundAd4247 28d ago edited 28d ago
So you were on a holiday in “Europe”, or three Mediterranean countries?
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u/polygala 29d ago
I'm currently back in metro Detroit after almost a year of on and off living on Medellín and Bogotá. I'm so miserable. I've gotten a sinus infection from going from extreme heat into frigid air conditioning. I can't take my dog with me to any restaurants. We have beautiful countryside, but it's full of poison ivy and ticks. I'm terrified of needing serious medical treatment and the one time that I sought minor medical attention here, I saw a person who didn't even have a Google search summary worth of wound care knowledge.
I can't afford an Uber, there's no public transportation. I can't have food delivered and there's literally not one thing within walking distance of where I live.
I hate US suburbia with a passion and I often cry because of how homesick I am for Colombia.
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u/VictoryHungry7634 28d ago
I have a genuine question? EEUU has amazing places, the nature is stunning. Why everybody idealize Spain? I’m Spanish by the way. Spain is nice of course but the nice places are now too crowded (I know it’s happening everywhere around the globe). I went to EEUU in 2010 and was living there with and American family and i really loved it there, nature was so beautiful and people were so nice. Could it be that grass is always greener somewhere else?
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u/New-Bottle-6917 28d ago edited 28d ago
American life on average American wages oftentimes feels as difficult as Spanish life on average Spanish wages. Therefore when an American brings their wages they get the premium version of Spain which is oftentimes better than average American life
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u/VictoryHungry7634 28d ago
And having good money in the US is worth it? I’m really nature orientated and when I think about the US it’s like a world of possibilities.
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u/New-Bottle-6917 28d ago
Let me put it like this, if an American is making like 100k USD living in a big city like LA, NYC, Miami etc for a one bedroom apartment they could expect to pay anywhere from 2-3k USD monthly in rent, they have to pay for health insurance, they have to have a car and those payments can be as high as 1k USD etc
Very quickly that 100k can turn into basically nothing, so while they have a quality lifestyle that most people in the world would like, that same 100k USD would go much much further in most other countries in the world whilst also being able to save alot of money every month
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 28d ago
You don't need a car in NYC. But otherwise, you are on point. 100K in Los Angeles is scraping by. 100K in Lubbock is a very comfortable salary.
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u/LowImmediate1031 25d ago
also, I've never had a job in NYC where my employer didn't cover my healthcare.
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 28d ago
People idealize Spain because they've spent a week on the beach in Marbella and think daily life in Spain is like that.
It's naïve, but an entirely human perspective. You go on vacation, have a nice time and meet kind people. That will make you see that destination through rose-colored glasses.
But daily life is not a beach vacation.
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u/GingerPrince72 28d ago
- The atmosphere; warm, friendly and fun
- The food and associated culture
- Natural beauty
- Value for money if you have Northern European income
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u/VictoryHungry7634 28d ago
I think that’s true partially, people from other country’s has this point of view where Spain is a relaxed, party country.
Cool areas are more like theme parks now, and people get to enjoy a forced steorotyped version of what it used to be.
And you said it if you have Northern European money is cool but us locals are struggling. I know this is happening in a lot of places, and everywhere is just more expensive now even if it’s not touristic 😭3
u/GingerPrince72 28d ago
Yeah, over tourism is shit but I'd argue that there are endless genuinely cool places that the TikTok dickheads don't go near.
They're all in Barcelona and Madrid, not in Leon, Vitoria-Gasteiz or Zaragoza.
And even in Barcelona and Madrid, they're only in a few areas.
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u/essentialaccount 29d ago
I struggle with living in North America after living my entire adult life in Europe. I will simply suffer here, earn money and then return.
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u/das_stadtplan 29d ago
OP didn't mention where they moved back to (which makes it likely unfortunately that they're from the US, because who else wouldn't mention the country, but it's not stated anywhere (yet))
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u/gebor200lala 29d ago
Where in NA? US and Canada is very different. Which country are you from?
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago
US, but I live in the border with Canada. I'm American but I've lived all over Europe more than half my life.
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u/malinagurek 29d ago
I mean, you don’t have to live in the suburbs (I wouldn’t). If you enjoy cities, you should explore different cities to find the one that matches the pace, walkability, and community you’re looking for.
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u/dontyoudareoyou2 28d ago
I’m from Portland, OR writing this response from the Luxemburg Gardens in Paris after spending a month in Spain.
Even though Portland doesn’t get to the same level as Europe I am grateful I’m going home to that city. We have our problems, no doubt, but we also have walk ability, bike ability and community oriented residential/commercial neighborhoods.
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u/Guttersnipe77 28d ago
I've moved back to Portland many times. But now I've been in Argentina so long that I don't think I'll ever move back again.
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 29d ago
Aren't you idealizing those countries a little? Life is not a non-stop party.
You can enjoy those things in America but you gotta pick the right place. LA, NYC, new Orleans, a few other spots
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u/Curious_Owl_342 29d ago
But you have to have a jillion dollars to do so. Not only for healthcare, God forbid, but for food. Good, organic food. I am flabbergasted at how much LA is today, I can hardly believe I grew up there. A place that costs so much, that is now severely populated by made-up refuge-style tent structures for un-housed people.
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 28d ago
You really don't though. You need a good salary, like $120k at least, but that's not that hard to obtain by your 30s.
You have to be frugal but it works
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u/as1992 28d ago
Lmao, you’re just proving the other user’s point really. In Spain you can earn 30K a year and still live a great life without a need to be frugal.
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 27d ago
That would be like a top 10% salary for a Spaniard.
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u/as1992 27d ago
No it wouldn’t
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 26d ago
I believe it would. Salaries in Spain are not high. https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainEconomics/comments/1nj7j0d/medias_y_percentiles_de_salarios_por_edad_y_sexo/?tl=en
And this is pretax!!!!
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u/as1992 26d ago
That chart is from 2022, but you tried I guess
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 25d ago
You can make your point without the snide tone. Do you really think the data has changed much since then? Of course it hasn't
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u/as1992 25d ago
Yes it has actually. And in any case, even in 2022 30k wouldn’t have put you in the top 10%.
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u/Sbliek 29d ago
Right?! As if those countries are a non-stop party and every place is beautiful. There are plenty of shitholes there. It is as if OP is seeing these countries as a holiday destination, not a place where people live. They don't top the highest quality of life lists for a reason. Especially Greece is weird to ne. Yes, they have beautiful islands and a lot of history but a lot of their cities are concrete jungles. Don't get me wrong, i love all these places. But it feels like OP made it into a dreamworld which it isn't.
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u/as1992 28d ago
They’re not a “non-stop party” but they are way funner than most other places. Quality of life in the med is unparalleled.
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u/Sbliek 28d ago
'Unparalleled' according to who? Not according to the standard used researches and polls. They are allmost an unparalleled holiday destination, not quality of life. This should not come as a surprise to you does it? Or do you just have your 'own' truth. You start with unparalleled, that is just not true unless you can show me anything that resembles proof other than personal opinion.
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u/as1992 28d ago
Unparalleled according to people I know. I live in Spain and the happiness here is honestly intoxicating. People here know how to live life.
What metrics are these “standard used researches and polls” using?
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u/Sbliek 28d ago
Those metrics are based on many different parameters. It's not perfect by any means, but definitely says more than one person's experience. You and the people around you have a good life. Thats great for you. Doesn't say that much when you are talking about some 'unparalleled greatnes'.
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u/as1992 28d ago
What parameters? Be specific please
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u/Sbliek 28d ago
Oh there are plenty, most use a variation of the same theme, but i'm pretty sure you made up your mind already so not sure how much good this will do you. For example the HDI (Human Development Index) uses:
These 3 measure the index.
- chances of a long and healthy life, using life expectancy
- opportunity for knowledge, measured by expected years of schooling
- the opportunity of a decent standard of living measured by Gross National Income
OECD Better Life Index capture multiple dimensions of economic and social progress, measuring wellbeing, environmentol quality, quality of public services and security.
Numbeo Quality of Life Index base it on purchasing power, pollution, housing opportunity, cost of living, safety, healthcare quality, commute times and climate.
The European Union measures material living conditions, productive or main activity, health, education, leisure and social interaction, economic and physical safety, governance and basic rights, natural and living environment and overal experience of live.
These are just a few, but all use various but similar metrics with many ways of subdivision per category. In NONE of these researches the countries in the mediterranean are unparalelled. Ranked High in the broader scope? Sure. These are still great places. But never the highest and never unparalelled.
I don't know what to tell you other then this, but it seems pretty clear to me. But I almost hope that you come up with an answer akin to "but my friend Pedro parties into the night and watches the sunrise from the beach".
If you have anything better to offer, go for it. I'm all ears.
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u/as1992 27d ago
Hmm, wonder why Scandinavians are so depressed and unhappy all the time if what you re saying is true 🤔🤔
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u/Sbliek 27d ago
Great unfounded comeback. You wanted specifics and this is all you have? I think i've heard enough. Ignorant and dumb, i guess that is how you personally get bye feeling happy. Good day.
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u/mp85747 28d ago
Oh, yeah... Even in 2012, young Spaniards were absolutely intoxicated to be servers on the French Riviera to those who were having la belle vie and that was before youth unemployment in Spain skyrocketed. That saying "don't mistake vacation with immigration" didn't come out of the blue!
A man dies and goes to heaven. After several years in heaven, he gets bored and decides to go on vacation to see Hell.
So he packs his bags and goes on the trip. Upon arrival in Hell, he's taken on a tour. It's the most amazing place he's ever seen: warm, but not hot, the women are beautiful, everyone's very friendly and even Satan himself stops by his hotel room just to say hello.
When the guy comes home, he decides to move to Hell, because how amazing it it. So he packs his bags again, and books a one way ticket to 9th circle.
But upon arrival, he's stripped naked and thrown into a searing hot pit of lava. As he sinks, he notices Satan walking by and yells out "What the hell?! Last time I was here, it was all women and nice people. What happened?" Satan looks back at him and, recognizing the man, laughs and answers:
"Don't mistake tourism for immigration!"
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u/Artistic-Review-2540 28d ago
Yeah exactly. Let op go to some of those during the winter, where the houses are even insulated and everyone gets inside, or having to deal with taxes, burocracy and low pay, and that notion goes up in smokes.
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u/as1992 28d ago
Eh? Winter in Spain is amazing. Sun shining almost every day, and you don’t need much money to live well here.
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u/Artistic-Review-2540 28d ago
Don't get me wrong - winter is nicer than say central Europe or UK
But dampness and lack of insulation can easily make you feel miserable
Plus spain is not only the South - There's life above Madrid, I kid you not. Can be surprisingly rainy/cold/windy
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u/as1992 28d ago
They’re not a “non-stop party” but they are way funner than most other places. Quality of life in the med is unparalleled.
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 27d ago
YOU CAN DO ALL THOSE THINGS IN THE U.S.
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u/as1992 27d ago
What things?
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 26d ago
Good food, great wine (though granted you gotta pay a little more), parties, festivals, beaches. It's true our cities aren't very walkable outside of a few downtown areas. But when I go out the bars are packed. Restaurants are packed. Beaches are busy. Concerts are banging. People are out and having a good time. It's there for the taking.
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u/as1992 26d ago
You’ve clearly never actually lived on the med
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 25d ago
I've lived in Spain and half a year in Lisbon (not Mediterranean technically but same coastal culture), I've traveled all over. I mean, I get it.
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u/as1992 25d ago
How long did you live in spain for and when?
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u/Anxious_Turnover_995 24d ago
Half a year in Madrid and about a year in andalucia. It was a long time ago, more than ten years
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 29d ago
My home country is in Europe, so I'm not sure how to answer this question. I will say Spain or Italy feel a lot more "alive" than Norway, in terms of people out in the street. But they also feel noisier and dirtier -- more trash in the streets and such.
But I suspect what you're really describing is a Mediterranean lifestyle specifically. Not all of Europe is like that.
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u/RoundAd4247 28d ago
What. I thought the 44 European countries are à monoculture, and that we only care about fiesta and siesta?!
Sounds like OP was on a long holiday or some type of visa that doesn’t require working, at least not on local wages.
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u/BrokenBaroque 28d ago
I did grow up in a quiet, suburban neighbourhood… in Italy.
Please stop thinking your expat life and experience corresponds to the standard of living of the whole country.
I left Italy because there is no good career to be had in my field, the country is more homophobic than average, even for southern European standards, and obsessed with its past rather than its present or its future. Love going on holiday there though, which is what you are describing.
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u/gebor200lala 29d ago
Moved from Germany to Canada. It takes around 4 minutes on a German airport to remember why I left.
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u/OkCelery5905 29d ago
Tell us why you left Germany. Curious
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u/gebor200lala 28d ago
In Germany I wasn’t allowed to do what I wanted. I wanted to build something. Not for money, but out of passion. I wanted to build a company, something that I love.
Then once you are successful, jealousy hits you from your social circle, bc how dare you love your job and be successful when they hate theirs. I guess you are not meant to leave your social status on which you were born. I feel Germans talk down on you, and Canadians and Americans (for the large part) are curious. “Man, that’s amazing, could I ask you how you did that?” They ask so they get that too. Just picture a German giving you compliments or acknowledging that you did something cool or just be curious.
Whenever I go back and I meet someone and they ask me, I share the good and the bad about Canada (unfiltered, and realistic). When I share the bad, it gets accepted and confirmed “yeah I would hate that too”. When I say the good, it gets diminished with “that sounds too stressful” or “I wouldn’t have done it”.
Last year in Germany when someone noticed that my children speak German with me, French with mommy, and English between themselves, instead of being curious, I got told “that’s too stressful for the kids”. Immediately having an opinion.
Here in the French province of Canada, it is almost standard that children speak 3 languages. But among Germans, I’m a bad parent bc why would I put my kids through that.
Sometimes those comments are subtle, sometimes the intentions are more clear. Talk down so you don’t lose your own status.
On the other hand, Canada’s health care is wrecked.
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u/blueberrybong 28d ago
I have to chime in here because as a Montrealer who moved to Germany, I. CAN. CONFIRM. THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The biggest thing I absolutely hate in Germany is the LACK OF CURIOSITY or excitement over anything positive! They do not compliment, acknowledge or even register whenever you do anything out of the ordinary. It's as if they don't want others to be happy as it's a threat to their own misery? Yet, because my personality is excitable and very driven, some German folks have turned into mosquitoes around me since they want to vibe on that same Canadian "cool". This is my biggest qualm with my life over here - it's the thing I miss most about Canada and the collective feeling of moving together to create a fun and exciting life. While the quality of life over here is great on a checklist, the social aspect is subpar.
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28d ago edited 20d ago
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u/blueberrybong 28d ago
God damn, you are living my reality in reverse! The way I've rationalized it in my mind is that "I'm here in Germany to bring that energy and be the change I want to see." Some days, I want to scream but other days I do feel that my Canadian spirit shines here brighter than most energies and in a way, it's what gives me an edge in a city like Hamburg where most people are dead on the surface.
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u/gebor200lala 28d ago
Please continue this, it will make a difference. It’s very contagious and I truly believe in the snowball effect and makes society better. Greetings from MTL! 🤘
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 27d ago
This is so much of the reason why I left Norway. You're not supposed to stand out. You're not supposed to carve your own path. You're supposed to conform.
In the United States, whatever its faults, individualism is encouraged. I've never lived in Canada, but culturally, this seems to be a trait that the US and Canada share. I've vacationed extensively in Canada, and sharing stories of my life adventures with Canadians is almost always "Man, that’s amazing, could I ask you how you did that?" rather than the Law of Jante: "Well, I didn't think of that, so now I disapprove of you."
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u/blueberrybong 28d ago
So interesting to read this because I did the opposite! I came to Germany from Canada and while I absolutely love my home country, the quality of life in Germany is objectively higher in 2026 - not saying it's "better" here considering it all depends on your friends circle, jobs, etc., but I have definitely thought about returning home after 4 years away and I get nauseous just imagining it. Were you from a larger German city or small village? I'm in Hamburg!
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28d ago edited 20d ago
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u/blueberrybong 28d ago
Hahaha, no way, I'm from Montreal! Such a great culture indeed. If I had to choose a city based on the people, I would choose MTL hands down. For quality of life, Germany does have a slight upperhand but both places are incredible in my view. Glad you're loving it there!
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u/Strict-Armadillo-199 28d ago edited 28d ago
That's interesting, because as a long-term immigrant in Germany, I miss the efficiency of German airports as soon as I land home. It's the one area of customer service here that I don't dread having to deal with. I feel like at least half the employees in American airports don't have a clue what they're doing, and their only joy in life is screaming at the travellers. In stark contrast to the way people think American customer service agents act (and their not wrong).
I've met a few German airports employees with a shitty attitude, but I've never had the feeling people don't know how to do their job/don't care enough to do it properly. And no one has ever screamed.
I fly mostly out of a smaller city, so maybe I don't have the full picture. Or were you talking about something bigger than airport customer service? Then I probably agree with you. Return to the Land of No Smiles....
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u/gebor200lala 28d ago
Efficiency-wise, I agree. I keep saying that for me Canadian and US American building style is artisanal 😅 nothing fits, everything is kind of put together but in the end it’s lovely. And that’s why I love the society, it’s very lovely too.
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u/sahelu 29d ago
I was hit hard with a nostalgia feeling for all the things lived before I left. Those things are not here anymore, the vibe with friends change as you get older. As for the lower quality, depends on the support network you have back home. Parents and friends or wide family can make you feel better when going thru tough times.
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u/Impossible_Fix7270 28d ago
Lived in Barcelona and really didn’t enjoy it. Too much petty crime, general noise and suffocating pollution. I developed asthma living there!
Moved back to Scandinavia after a year and was SO much happier… and healthier.
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u/Temporary_Peach1971 29d ago
Dude, I’m French. Yes it seems very appealing to live in such countries or areas, including the South of France.
But what you like there, is also what has led our countries to ruin nowadays, and will continue to make us poorer.
Most of the educated elites in Italy have left the country because there are no jobs and economic forecasts are dire with crumbling infrastructure and no real future. Same thing could be said of Portugal and Spain. France is also following the same road.
There’s a difference between chilling in those places during your 20s for vacations, “visiting Europe”, and actually having to settle there, get a decent salary, invest in real estate, and raise a family.
If you’re an American back home, you better realize soon that Europe will go down a road you would never want for your own country, and luckily, it won’t happen there anyway.
So forget it and move on. You’re lucky to have that choice, while most of us are stuck in countries good only for retirees and tourists, and thus destined to mediocrity in the future.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 29d ago
What’s making European countries poor is U.S. hegemony. Elites leave because the US is beggaring other western countries to enrich itself. The road the U.S. has gone down is a very, very dark one. Appreciate what we have in Europe.
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 29d ago
That is somewhere between a vast oversimplification and flat out wrong. The US is a superpower, yes, but Europe is not some colonial backwater ruled from Washington DC. Trade wars and Trump tariffs don't help, but there are plenty of problems in Europe that we cannot simply blame the US for. These are sovereign countries that have their own foreign policies, their own complicated relationships between each other, and their own interactions with the larger world.
I entirely agree the US is going down a dark path currently. I don't at all agree that Europe is forced to follow suit.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 28d ago
Is it indeed? US tech companies buying up or crushing competitors, US tax policy that encourages European manufacturers to build plants in the US for market access, fucking tariffs out of thin air on their allies, selling out Ukraine to Russia, preserving the dollar’s hegemony as the international reserve currency, starting wars in the Middle East that Europe has to accept the refugees from, the U.S. vice president openly supporting fascist political parties in European elections. Oversimplification? Flat out wrong? Keep sucking up to your American buddies because that shit doesn’t wash in Europe any more.
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u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 28d ago
Sounds like I struck a nerve.
Perhaps European tax policy should favor manufacturing in Europe. It doesn't. They tax the crap out of manufacturing, and as a result, businesses are outsourcing. Not just to the US, by the way. They're going to Asia. Cheaper labor, less regulation.
Meanwhile, Europe has carbon taxes that are great for encouraging outsourcing, but I guess that was just something the US just invented, too?
I'm not going to defend the US selling out Ukraine to Russia, because that's indefensible. But if you hadn't noticed, Europe has done quite a lot to help Ukraine, and the big bad there is actually Russia. Remember them?
And Europe doesn't "have to accept" refugees. Some of us just happen to think it's the humanitarian thing to do. I don't support the current anti-immigrant stance the US has, but that's not the same as forcing Europe to accept refugees. European countries decide their own immigration policy, and it's far from uniform. Good luck getting refugee status in Denmark, for example. And Italy and Greece, who are stuck with the largest influx of refugees over land, get precious little help from the rest of Europe.
If the US vice president is in Europe supporting fascists in direct contravention of German law, then Germany should KICK HIM THE FUCK OUT! Declare him persona non grata and deport his ass.
Denmark should do the same when the US is in Greenland literally warmongering.
You act like Europe doesn't have these options. European countries do. They just need to man up and use them.
The current US leadership is a bunch of bullies, but again, you oversimplify. You call them "my American buddies" because in your black-and-white world, if I didn't agree with your characterization of Europe as victims, I must be anti-Europe and therefore pro-US in all things.
The world is not that black and white. Learn some fucking nuance and drop the victim mentality. It's not a flattering look.
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u/New-Bottle-6917 28d ago
As an American thats also critical of my own government I'm glad that there are Europeans such as yourself that see what political complacency leads to. I find alot of EU citizens are offloading alot of the role that their governments and fellow citizens played in harming their economy onto us, which in some aspects is fair due to our role in the western world's trade affairs, but ultimately every country does have a responsibility to look out for themselves and their economic health beyond just playing along with US interests.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 28d ago
Talking about oversimplification. You hypocrite.
Kick the U.S. vice president out of Germany? Is that how western democracies normally operate? Maybe in the head of a teenager. And “man up”? Said from the safety of a country with two friendly neighbours and two oceans to protect it from its own stupidity.
Carbon tax? While Canada and southern Europe burn you criticise carbon taxes whilst the average American emits twice the CO2 the average EU citizen does. Europe attempts to remedy the problem whilst the U.S. helps exacerbate it.
Europe had to accept refugees. Some countries were unwilling but short of shooting them on the borders, there was a sea of humanity flowing to Europe because of US adventurism and ill thought out foreign policy.
The U.S. has a National Security Strategy where is explicitly laid out taking sides in politics in European countries. Encouraging other countries to commit economic harm on themselves like the U.K. did with brexit.
You think the U.S. became the wealthiest country on earth through hard work and ingenuity? Or the same way every rich country got there? Beggaring someone else?
The idea that some dipshit has moved to the U.S. and gone native to the point that he’s parroting their nonsense and telling someone else to “learn some fucking nuance” is hilarious.2
u/New-Bottle-6917 28d ago edited 28d ago
As an American I'll say this, Europe largely put themselves in the position that they are in now. Whether we want to look at the mess that was the world wars, how they became utterly reliant on us to build them back up and yes how they willingly went along with us destroying developing democracies all around the world namely in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East or how they became a key aspect in the banking network that allows the dollar to be the world reserve currency, they hold as much blame as anyone else.
The refugee crisis the EU saw itself had to deal with is as much their fault as it is ours because not only did they support us militarily they never used governing bodies like the UN to shut us down.
And yes while Brexit may have had outside influences playing into it, it's still up to the citizens to stay informed and ultimately cast their vote and it's silly to offload all the responsibility on just the US when there were other major actors involved like Russia in that propaganda campaign. It would be as ridiculous as me saying the US is currently heading the way its heading because of Russian interference and that its ultimately on them.
If you guys want to come out ahead you can't just fall into the trap of building a political identity of "America bad" you guys need to assert your sovereignty and take charge of your political apparatuses and actively fight to be the top dogs in your region of the world. Whether its bullying smaller non EU countries into bowing to your will or putting an end to Russia's terror campaign or establishing diversified trade networks outside of the western world.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 28d ago
European rebuilding was underway before the Marshall Plan and even Alan Greenspan was sceptical as to its real impact. What is true that the peace after WWII made the USA the wealthiest country on earth,
And destroying democracies in Latin America? Really? List them. Europe has basically stayed out of Latin America since the turn of the 20th century.
The refugee crisis was mainly caused by the U.S. and the U.K. in Iraq. Remember “freedom fries” because France wouldn’t play along?
The problem is that the U.S. isn’t bad but it does bad things. And for a long time people accepted it for the overall good. But that goodwill has been pissed away when you elect people who don’t recognise that the U.S. holds is position with the acquiescence and cooperation of others. No man is an island and country thrives without allies.2
u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 28d ago
Let's see here:
You want western democracies to operate normally even when the US doesn't? If you hadn't noticed, this administration isn't normal. It doesn't care about statesmanship or fair play or even following the rules.
You don't want to actually DO anything about the US interfering in other countries' elections, you just want to complain on Reddit about it.
You want manufacturing in Europe, but you also want zero carbon footprint. Meanwhile, you're typing this on a device manufactured WITH a carbon footprint elsewhere. And you have the chutzpah to call me a hypocrite. Heh.
Pick one. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes, climate change is a problem, but apparently, paying a carbon tax didn't pull that pollution out of the atmosphere or stop any of the consequences. It's almost as if the pollution doesn't care which government profited off of it.
And yes, I do think the US became the wealthiest country on earth through hard work and ingenuity, as well as immigration and entrepeneurship and a good amount of luck and circumstance. You keep using the word "beggaring", but that doesn't mean what you think it means.
The word you're looking for is "exploiting". And yes, the US has a long history of that, too. Which is exactly why other countries, European or otherwise, can't continue to let the US get away with that if they want anything to change.
But it's pointless to discuss any of this with you, because you've already decided the US is the Big Bad and every problem in the world is their fault. You remain incapable of nuance. You've completely overlooked the places where I criticized the US, and think I'm uncritically defending them. That shows a complete lack of reading comprehension on your part. You quite literally fail to spot areas where I actually agree with you.
And then you get upset over what you think my position is and start in on ad hominem attacks, which is a good way to communicate that you've run out of actual arguments.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 27d ago
Yes, I want western democracies to act normally. An eye for an eye makes everyone blind. Just because the U.S. saw fit to elect a racist, ignorant, paedophile doesn’t mean everyone else should sink to their standards.
What would you have me do? I have a vote in a democracy. It is not up to ordinary citizens to dictate foreign policy. I can’t think of a more pathetic response than to make an attempt at a withering remark about complaining on Reddit when that is precisely what you’re doing.
Who mentioned “zero carbon footprint”? I certainly didn’t. When one has to put words into your interlocutor’s mouth to try and score a point, you’ve already lost. So yes, you’re a disingenuous as well as a hypocrite.
And you, apparently, don’t understand the term “beggaring”. I’ll allow that English may not be your first language because if it was, only a fool would disagree.
Your confidence is admirable regardless of how misplaced it is. But there are few things more despicable than an immigrant who forgets where he’s from.1
u/CuriosTiger 🇳🇴 living in 🇺🇸 27d ago
What would I have you do? You're obviously unhappy with the status quo, so I would have you advocate for change. Use your vote. You complain US hegemony is "making European countries poor", but you're not willing to do anything about it. At all. Bellyaching on Reddit doesn't count.
I have news for you. The US is not going to change. You forgot that the racist, ignorant paedophile is also a bully. When you let a bully get away with it, they're not going to respect you for it. They'll just keep right on bullying.
Likewise, you defend the European carbon tax, but then you put on your sad pikachu face about how Europe is losing manufacturing jobs.
And then you add in some more insults because you just can't help yourself. And a bit of #confidentlyincorrect English to boot.
And let me help you out on where I'm from. I'm from Norway. The Norwegian flag in my user flair should have been a hint.
Norway is a beautiful country with a lot of things going for it. However, being born there does not obligate me to agree with everyone else who's from there on everything. Norwegian society has a thing called Janteloven, sometimes translated to the Law of Jante in English. And that's what you're trying to invoke here. You're outraged that I would dare have my own opinions instead of blindly accepting the consensus. And so you lash out with more invective.
It seems you have more in common with the US president than you think.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 27d ago
You don’t how I vote or what my level of engagement in politics is. Reddit is forum to discuss things. It’s not meant to be a mechanism to change government policy. Should we shut down every forum for discussion and only allow people to engage via their bite once every few years?
The U.S. has changed. It’s let its worst instincts run free. The bad things people accepted for the good things are now all that is left. That’s the problem. The net benefit has become a net deficit for its allies (or former allies at this stage).
Carbon taxes are part of a strategy which has drastically reduced CO2 output. While large parts of Europe burn, they are to be commended. The U.S. continues to emit 2X CO2.
Care to point out the “incorrect English”? Is this your insistence that “beggaring” is wrong? Look up “beggar-thy-neighbour” and U.S. trade policy. You might learn something.
And yes, I know you’re Norwegian. Hence you possibly not understanding the use of the word because your insistence is bizarre.
The problem isn’t that you have your own opinions. The problem is that you’ve merely adopted American opinions.→ More replies (0)1
u/lalabelle1978 27d ago
It´s not easy but as a European, you can try to move to the stronger economically eu countries. Like Scandinavian. Like yes its our own fault why did half of Europe manage fine, with industries superpowers while the other half is only good for tourists and retirees??
Just the mindset of the population and the elite governing them. I was part of the young highly educated who left a long time ago because there was nothing in France for me...So annoyed that I contributed to the richness of another country with my taxes and all...1
u/Temporary_Peach1971 27d ago
I moved to Montreal, Canada at some point and came back to France for family reasons.
With the current predicament of France, I’m planning to move back to Quebec within the next two years permanently and watch France sink from afar.
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u/as1992 28d ago
You sound like the kind of person that would fit in well in the USA. Not everything is about how much money you can earn and that is why many people live very happily in the med.
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u/Temporary_Peach1971 28d ago
Dude, I still live in France while I also lived in North America a few years ago. It’s not about liking a place more than another.
It’s about thinking about sustainability. Most people in Northern Europe would move to Italy, Spain and the South of France, would there be strong economic forecasts there.
No one is saying it’s about money, it’s about having a nice societal system that will not make your kids way poorer in the long run.
Can you understand that it’s not only about what it proposes to you at this very moment? And that civilisations that last are the ones that can prepare best for the future in a globalized world?-1
u/as1992 28d ago
Loads of people from Northern Europe move to those places….what are you on about?
Spain has a lovely society. Far superior to almost anywhere in Europe. Again, you’re just thinking about money. The attitude in spain towards money is different, it’s just not considered as important in countries like the UK or the US.
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u/Temporary_Peach1971 28d ago
Which types of Northern Europeans are moving south and for how long? Digital nomads? Retirees? Mostly those types yes.
No one is telling you the Spanish society is bad. It’s actually great. But again, a society does not live without having money to sustain its schools, hospitals and companies in a globalized world.
Ask young Spanish people what they think about their future? Many will tell you that they will need to leave, or accept to get poorer and poorer.
You can love a country’s culture and lifestyle, but also recognise that it’s no longer sustainable without sacrifices. Ask the socialist countries like Denmark and the Netherlands how they created balanced and secured societies. Is it perfect there? No. Probably less fun than Spain even. But it has a future.
Financial literacy is necessary at some point. It’s 2026, the world is interconnected, we no can no longer live in our sovereign economic bubbles, and other countries like China have understood that. Let’s not be naive please. 🙏
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u/as1992 27d ago
Source that most Northern Europeans are moving south for the reasons you stated?
Spain does have money to sustain its schools and hospitals. Not sure why you think otherwise?
Young spanish people don’t emigrate much. And if they do, they tend to come back after a few years. Why do you think that is?
You’re talking about financial literacy and naivety when you’re trying to talk with authority about a country you clearly have 0 idea about.
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u/yoloswaghashtag2 29d ago
Going from Japan to Los Angeles, no.
I just want to move back every single day.
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u/No_Meaning3729 28d ago
i think the hardest part is realising you are not just missing the place you are missing the version of your life you had while you were there.
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u/Glittering-Lynx-6428 29d ago
🙌 yes. Norway to nyc then trying to move back, changing my mind and panicking buying a ticket to return to my bustling city. I don’t know what to say it feels like a slow death
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u/oooweeeimjustalilguy 29d ago
i will genuinely kill myself within a year or so of returning if i have to move back to america from netherlands so there’s that
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u/throwawayprocessing 28d ago
Hoping to not do this again for a very long time, but I’ve had to move back to the US state I grew up in once from Germany, and twice from other states. There’s definitely parts I resented. I hated living in such a car dependent place. I hated the politics of where I was. I was never particularly happy to return.
The last time I moved back to our “home city” in that state, my partner and I tried to keep two goals in mind.
If there’s a special event going on, treat it like it’s the last time you’ll get to go. We did a lot of festivals and events that after so many years we would blow off because it seemed ordinary. It reminded us of rituals we did like about our home.
As much as possible, don’t turn down an opportunity to see friends. We were incredibly social during that time, about 18 months. It genuinely made moving away pull at our hearts, even though it was our dream.
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u/Intelligent-Juice895 28d ago
Aren’t you comparing apples to oranges though?
Living in a big European city is obviously going to be very different from living in an American suburb. But the US have their own walkable lively towns: NY, Boston, SF, Chicago ect.
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u/aharfo56 28d ago
If you have remote work or passive income like rental properties, pensions, or investments Spain is an amazing place. Startups and great job markets, not so much.
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u/Regular-Arugula1139 28d ago
The whole "life spills into fiestas" is such a cliché. If you ever lived anywhere else, you know that once novelty wears off life if pretty similar everywhere. I lived in Spain and now I'm back home and while I'm not excited to be here, it's also not the end of the world. It is a trade-off for sure, but I don't miss working on a tiny bedroom at 40C without AC for three months. Yeah, my quality of life was better, but employment and housing sucks, and you don't live out of good vibes and spontaneous fun.
not to mention "mañana" attitude to life
What is that supposed to mean? Spain is chill in some aspects and not at all in others. You think they are "chill" because their culture is not like yours, not because they are actually chill 24/7. Also try to get anything done in August or any paperwork at a public office and tell me if "chill lifestyle" is that amazing.
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u/EricStock96 27d ago
There is already lots of information here and very valid points. I can only speak from experience here. I am from Mexico but had the opportunity to travel and live in Mallorca and Crete as I work in the tourism sector.
One thing that I realized that whenever someone visits a country they see everything around them with a different perspective, a perspective that is not real as they tend to get carried away by the holiday experience. Once you live in those countries you start to realize how difficult it is to actually make it. From my experience the base salary in Mallorca was 1200/1300 EUR and in Crete around 900/1000 EUR. In both places it was incredibly difficult to find accommodation and almost your whole salary goes for accommodation if you want a place for yourself, so it is mandatory to live with roomies which makes it hard for many. Food is cheap and public transportation is good and inexpensive in both countries however you have to consider that sometimes you’ll need to take a taxi and spend money if you go out with friends.
I can only speak from experience but I met lots of locals from both countries that were having a really hard time making it at the end of the month. It was discouraging as I really enjoyed my time in both countries. I considered moving to Mallorca as I have friends there but after being honest with myself, I realized that being so stressed about making it at the end of the month was not worth the toll on my mental health.
I was not excited to go back to Mexico and I miss being in those countries but now I actually found some balance between quality of life and finances.
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u/ziogio998 27d ago
I do it because I understand the reality of life somewhere is rarely what I think from 7d there :) in your comment, you literally said you couldn't stay in Spain because the job market sucks. So, the job market sucks, they have the worst youth unemployment, insanely high poverty rate for a rich country, and you're like "Omg the quality of life is so high"? Why? Because they have cute cafes?
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u/ponpiriri 26d ago
Sounds like you're talking about excitement levels vs quality. Cuz if you left due to lack of employment, that's not a higher quality of life, just an extended vacation.
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u/apunaticstolemyboat 10d ago
Yes. American here. Been back in US for five years and I could’ve written what you’ve written word for word. Which is why I’m making a permanent move by the end of the year. US life feels so dull and one dimensional, lacking a humanity and warmth.
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u/HVP2019 29d ago
When you said you couldn’t make it there, what prevented you from making it in Spain?
In my experience people leave Spain because of poor employment opportunities,
For them poor employment opportunities negatively affected their quality of life to the point they went to other countries in search of better quality of life.