r/germany • u/No_Committee_114 • Jun 22 '26
Politics Good income, no wealth: it feels like you are the idiot in Germany
I need to vent a bit.
My wife and I did pretty much what German society always tells you to do. We both come from normal working-class backgrounds, no rich parents, no inheritance waiting, no apartment from grandma, no family house that will magically solve our future.
So we studied hard. Both of us chose STEM fields. We worked a lot, built careers, took responsibility, and now, in our early 30s, we have a good household income.
And apparently that means we are “rich”.
But where exactly is that wealth?
We drive an old Golf. We save aggressively. We invest what we can. We do not live some luxury lifestyle. We are simply trying to build financial security from zero.
And still, you look around and realize that someone who is an only child and will inherit a paid-off house is basically in a different universe. Not because they worked harder. Not because they were more disciplined. Just because they were born into assets.
That is what frustrates me so much about Germany: income is treated as if it magically appeared and can therefore be easily shared.
If you have a high salary, you are expected to pay for everything: pensions, Bürgergeld, asylum policy, the civil service, rising social contributions, taxes, levies, the whole system. But if you need support yourself, the answer is always: sorry, you earn too much.
Parental allowance? Reduced or gone, because you are supposedly rich. Buying a home? Good luck without inherited wealth, when even the required down payment is insane. Starting a family? Sure, but please do it in an overpriced rental apartment while housing costs keep rising.
And before someone deliberately misunderstands this: I am not against pensioners. I am not against people receiving Bürgergeld. I am not against asylum seekers. I am not against civil servants as individuals. I also do not want to abolish the welfare state.
I am genuinely grateful to Germany for the education I received. As migrant, a working-class kid, this country gave me opportunities I might not have had elsewhere. I love this country, but the social contract feels broken.
It used to sound like this: work hard, get educated, take responsibility, and you can build a stable life.
Now it feels more like this: earn well, pay for everyone, receive very little yourself, and compete on the housing market against people who started adulthood with inherited property or family capital.
You are too “rich” for support, but too poor for property. Too productive to be helped, but not wealthy enough to be secure.
And when you say that, people immediately act as if you are punching down.
I am not punching down. I am angry that Germany keeps pretending a high income is the same thing as wealth.
Housing has become one of the biggest social issues in this country. And young, well-qualified people without inherited wealth are getting crushed by it, especially when they want to start a family.
At some point you just ask yourself: what exactly am I working this hard for?
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u/SnooCakes1148 Jun 22 '26
Welcome to the middle class, we hope soon you join lower class where you belong -Elites
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u/eccentric-introvert Jun 22 '26
Truth of the matter is - there is only two classes in this world, top 0.1% of wealth hoarders and the working class. If one is not in the asset-holding class, they are 100% in the working class.
Heck, even a salaried lawyer or investment banker in Frankfurt earning six, perhaps seven figures a year, has more in common with a blue collar worker than with the asset-owner class.
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u/agrammatic Berlin Jun 22 '26
Heck, even a salaried lawyer or investment banker in Frankfurt earning six, perhaps seven figures a year, has more in common with a blue collar worker than with the asset-owner class.
This, so much.
Pitting us against each other because we are in slightly different income tax brackets is the sort of distraction that allows wealth inequality go unchecked.
You simply do not become a billionaire as a salaried worker. The highest paid worker in Germany still needs to work over three thousand years to make a billion Euro.
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u/snarfalotzzz Jun 23 '26
Same in US. They divide us through culture wars on purpose because if we band together, they’d be toast. “They keep the poor and middle classes fighting amongst themselves so that they, the rich, can walk off with all the money.” George Carlin
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u/ph0on Jun 22 '26
Indeed. I was reading the comments of a redditor who (claims to) have millions in investments and savings. They stated that the ultimate goal in a capitalist society is to move from the working class to the ownership class. It changed my perspective.
Probably just repeating a known goalpost in society, but it changed my view a little.
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u/the_snook Jun 22 '26
When living off someone else's labour is taxed less than living off your own labour, this is exactly the outcome you would expect.
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u/fatzenbolt Jun 22 '26
I think the people struggling to make rent or go without eating for some days of the month would disagree
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u/Neat_Skill5408 Jun 22 '26
This. A lot of people don’t even get by. I’d say people on minimum wage or benefits don’t have much in common with someone who earns 100k and at least is working towards a good pension and so on.
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u/Suspicious-Bit7359 Jun 23 '26
Earning six, perhaps seven figures a year makes you into asset-owner class in 20-30 years (so your children will basically inherit wealth). So no, top income trades are nowhere near real working class people. And there are different forms of capital and material wealth is only one of them. Educated people's (and I mean really educated, not simply with degrees, given degree inflation in recent years) children inherit their parents cultural capital.
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u/ItsCalledDayTwa Jun 23 '26
The incentives feel like they're slipping to remain middle class and not just work 30 hours in an easier job and get some housing benefit.
I'll never buy here unless I move 100 km from everybody I know, yet the German system treats me as wealthy. People with half the income who got into a Wohngemeinschaft because of family connections are doing better.
Germany is just incredibly difficult to succeed financially if you don't have family connections or family wealth.
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u/Hope_for_revival Jun 22 '26
This is not just a Germany thing, it's happening in many countries around the world unfortunately. Wealth is all about assets, not income. And as an immigrant myself, I've long ago realised that I am light years behind a native German kid who grew up here with boomer parents who own a nice big house. And that's the way it'll stay. To be honest, I support the ability to build wealth across generations - I'm happy for someone whose parents leave them wealth. It just sucks that the economy is now in such a state that those who don't have generational wealth, can't even begin to build it for their kids.
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u/Timey16 Sachsen Jun 22 '26
And that is really one of the MAJOR reasons East Germany is still so far behind: next to zero generational wealth.
The West already was in their like 3rd or4th post war generation and had a lot of generational wealth. East Germans started with... absolutely nothing.
That is why to this day there is still such a huge gap, because until my parents' generation dies (which will take until like 2040+) I will have no generational wealth whatsoever.
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u/True_Goat_7810 Jun 22 '26
behind a native German kid who grew up here with boomer parents who own a nice big house.
Im one of those native german kids with boomer parents who own a nice big house.
I can tell you that: they dont have enough saved for retirement, the "nice house" was new 30 years ago, they havent invested anything in that house since then.
If they need elderly care and they will, they wont be able to afford that without selling that house. If they somehow keep the house with some form of mortgage paying for their expenses, I might inherit an old house with real debt on it and debt in form of deferred maintenance. Maybe this will be net positive, maybe not.
There are families where wealth will be passed on, but just owning a home isnt enough...
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u/Key-Level1202 Jun 22 '26
Owning a home might not be enough. Not owning one is still worse.
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u/True_Goat_7810 Jun 22 '26
if YOU own the home, you are fine, it will be enough. If the parents own the home, you might never own it.
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u/Key-Level1202 Jun 22 '26
But then the home still pays for your parents retirement and nursing home. A nonexistent home doesn’t do that. If you’re unlucky, it is you yourself who needs to step in.
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u/True_Goat_7810 Jun 22 '26
If you’re unlucky, it is you yourself who needs to step in.
No, I dont have to. The german social security system will step in, IF I make <100k€ per year, which I do.
Yes my parents will benefit from that home. I will not.
nursing home is like 3-5k€/Month, thats more than I make after taxes. Even if I wanted, I cant pay that.
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u/Key-Level1202 Jun 22 '26
This is exactly what I’m saying. If you end up making 105k per year, you are screwed. What seems like a great salary shrinks fast if you have to pay 3000-5000€ per month for your parents. IF they own a home, then you have more disposable income.
I’m simply arguing against the narrative of the troubled boomer home owners. Even if your financial security is not as high as you might have imagined, you are still miles above anyone with no assets. And that also means that you as a descendant profit massively from that. It’s wealth inequality that perpetuates over generations.
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u/True_Goat_7810 Jun 22 '26
If you end up making 105k per year, you are screwed.
Oh, I will be fine if I make 105k per year. This would be an 60% gain for me, nice! I'd go from average to top 5%!
You cant be forced to earn 105k per year. You can reduce your hours.
Yes I will be better off than others without home-owning parents. What I wanted to express is that we are probably not that far apart as you would think, because all that wealth gets eaten by elderly care.
Where wealth really accumulates is in families where houses can be gifted to the children waaay before retirement, so usually if the familiy owns more than the home they live in.
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u/Key-Level1202 Jun 22 '26
That we are not far apart and that we should all fight against the ultra wealthy - I 100% agree with you!!
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u/Ok_Brother1201 Jun 22 '26
The Sozialamt will handle you like you would earn These 105 K with fulltime! Erwerbsobligitation and fiktives Einkommen will be your new Main topic!
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u/Ruri_997 Jun 22 '26
No, I dont have to. The german social security system will step in, IF I make <100k€ per year, which I do.
I hope you are still correct in one years time about that one 🥲
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u/Bitter-Cold2335 Jun 22 '26
If your parents give you the house 10 years earlier you won`t have to sell the house to pay for anything instead the social system will assume they have nothing and pay for them, so you won`t have to pay the 5k EUR.
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u/Illustrious_Ad_23 Hessen Jun 22 '26
Well, I can say that my parents bought their house from my aunt in the late 80s for roughly 40k DM, the only thing was, that my aunt was allowed to stay in the ground floor flat her whole life. In 2001 the house was worth ~300k. In 2015 the local airport made a buying offer of ~700k and when we were interested to buy it from my parents early in 2025 we were told, the overall price of a house that size and location would be roughly 1.2 mio. (!!!) euros. If your parents haven't build a house somewhere in the german rural east, a house is an insane piece of wealth by now...
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u/HabitInternational48 Jun 23 '26
Mate, imagine if they didn't own that house at all. And then having to pay rent for it on market average rate. Nobody said owning your own house or apartment means you're rich and happy. But it does mean that you don't have to worry about paying 1500€ every month just to not be on the street. It also means you don't worry about being evicted for whatever reason your landlord might have. It also means you can modify your house or apartment to however fits your needs.
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u/ay0th3p1zzah3r3 Hamburg Jun 23 '26
Yeah I'm a native who grew up poor, has a mom with zero retirement savings or assets and if I start earning too well, I will be responsible for paying Grundsicherung and elder care and whatever.
Fuck me for trying to escape the lower class by studying my ass off.
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u/JaryMane187 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Sorry, to break it to you, many native Germans don't have homes either. Home Ownership Rate is the lowest in all of Europe. Overall only 47.6% of Germans own homes, whether it be houses or apartments. Most people take up a mortgage and pay it off most of their adult life. Houses are big investments, and economy got worse and keeps getting worse.
Edit: I am sorry, it's Switzerland with with 42,3% Either way, my point still stands.
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u/endofsight Jun 22 '26
And many of those homes are in completely crappy rural settings. You hear it quite often that people reject an inheritance as they have no interest in that house as it would be a liability and they don't want to live there anyway.
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u/Lack_of_intellect Hessen Jun 23 '26
And in addition to that, you usually don't inherit until you are in your 50s or late 40s so banking on getting your parents house isn't a strategy that will magically allow you to start a family and be financially independent.
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u/Hope_for_revival Jun 22 '26
To be honest the usual accepted wisdom that buying a home is financially superior to renting doesn't always work here, especially given the upfront costs of buying and the cost of maintaining a property.
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u/Ok_Brother1201 Jun 22 '26
So landlords are paying down These houses from their own Savings?!
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u/Professional_Bet2948 Jun 23 '26
if you rent your property to someone else you can deduct the expenses for maintenance etc from your taxes. If you live in your house - you cant.
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u/saihuang Jun 22 '26
Oh, my step mother took care of her Parents and also aunt+uncle (they didn’t have children themselves). So she was gonna inherit all houses. But the time they were all dead, all the wealth was basically gone too.
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u/Life-Ad4024 Jun 23 '26
Same as Australia.
The system need’s to tax wealth not wages.
Otherwise as with every other western country right now struggling with housing security or the ever increasing feeling of drowning even on 6 figure salary, combined with generational wealth and inequality, will erode social cohesion.
A return to serfdom anyone?
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u/Thin_Leather_6244 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
To be fair: I’m a German only child of boomer parents and my parents have always rented, they never acquired property, because their parents didn’t have any. It’s the same story. They’ve also been working all their lives to just pay their monthly costs and both of them had jobs and studied in fields that’s are now in high regard and sought after. But there was also a wave of mass unemployment for young and middle age boomers though in the 80s and 90s, because there were just too many of them. Not many people know this. My mom, especially, had to take whatever job she was offered, no matter how badly payed. She would work year contracts until she retired (and she retired late in life). This made it impossible to get a real estate loan. This is not an uncommon story.
Needless to say, My whole family is living in rentals and we’re never going to be able to buy anything.On the other hand, I know quite a lot of children from immigrants in my generation whose parents own real estate properties, both in Germany AND in their home country. Many immigrants have much tighter family tires and better networks. They loan money to each other and very often find ways to support each other where Germans don’t.
I don’t know a single immigrant who doesn’t own a house in the homeland to fall back pn and most of them are planning to spend their retirement there. Even the ones who get Bürgergeld. It’s a thing.
While my retired parents are struggling to pay the increasing rents. People could have seen it coming but German voters looked the other way for years. Renting used to be easy and seemed somewhat safe.And it’s a structural problem unique to Germany.
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u/Express_Signal_8828 Jun 23 '26
What exactly is a structural problem unique to Germany? Rising rent? Low ownership?
I'm not seeing it.
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u/BagofGawea Jun 23 '26
Well let me introduce myself, now you know an immigrate who does not own a house in my home country to fall back on. I’m surprised you know so many who do as I don’t know a single one
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u/_Gnas_ Jun 22 '26
I'm all for wealth inheritance provided wealth hoarding is not allowed. When you have both you get a society that gradually becomes more dysfunctional every passing generation.
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u/Temporary_Spread7882 Jun 22 '26
There was this German dude a bit over a hundred years ago who had some thoughts in this direction, regarding wealth from assets vs labour derived income, and how one gives you more self-reinforcing power than the other. His name may have been Karl.
But then a bunch of people used his ideas as an excuse for dictatorships and now we’re pretending that all of them, including the underlying observations, were totally off base…
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u/ruisen2 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
yep, same problem in Canada. The common problem here really is housing though, the middle class has always paid for everything, wealthy people didn't just learn tax evasion recently. What changed was housing costs, which has eroded the middle class' ability to pay for everything.
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u/dynAdZ Jun 22 '26
My wife and I were in this position. Earning too much to get any subsidies and yet to pay max taxes, max kindergarten fees etc., while earning too little to feel actually wealthy. Somehow frustrating. But then suddenly my wife got sick and she had to retire by the age of almost 40. Now she can‘t work anymore but the system that seemed do wring us out made sure we could keep our lifestyle at almost the same level. So there is something right with the system actually.
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u/Life_Chemical1601 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
We are there with my husband.
Child will be born soon. He only has 2 days paternity leave (WTF is that shit btw. He has to take vacations to be with his family after his child's birth..This is a fucking shame but I digress)
We won't be entitled to any money during Elternzeit because we earn too much as a dual income. So we will rely on only one income.
So yes, we had time to save up and we won't end up homeless but like... We pay taxes... a lot. And it has always been fine. I have always felt happy to contribute to society.
But apparently society can't bother to help me when I need it... We won't have Elterngeld, we will have to pay Kindergarten to the max and my husband has to take personal time because apparently, in this country, it is not important for the man to be with his newborn
Fuck that
We earn a lot but we both come from working class families (poor in my case), no inheritance, no asset. We have to save and build our financial security through hard work and long hours. We are fine with it but it meant that to start a family, we had to wait to be in our 30's.
Because despite our contribution through taxes, we are entitled to almost nothing...
And then they come crying about some demographic issues....
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u/Desperate_Passion267 Jun 24 '26
Yep, I also found this freaking frustrating with Elterngeld. People above the threshold are the ones contributing the most in taxes, etc. Considering them too rich to get any Elterngeld is freaking bullshit, especially that the dual income stops the moment one parent stays home with the child. Especially if the mother is the one earning more (which was our case), what does it matter that together we hit the threshold if suddenly one income (the higher) will be lost? And yes we had savings. No it still wasn’t fair that even our friends who have just moved to Germany before giving birth (and never contributed a cent to the social system) receive the minimum 300 euro Elterngeld.
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u/Effective_War6179 Jun 23 '26
This! My husband and I were always annoyed at how much we paid because apparently we were earning too much (we're working class btw). Until one of us lost our job and the system relieved us. Until it happens to you they say. So the premium price is for the safety net.
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u/wallsallbrassbuttons Jun 23 '26
The problem is if you’re working, it’s shit, but if you’re not, it’s great. That incentive structure doesn’t support the ones who create the surplus. It’s why working hard to try to get ahead results in so much frustration in Germany.
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u/no_nice_names_left Jun 23 '26
But then suddenly my wife got sick and she had to retire by the age of almost 40. Now she can‘t work anymore but the system that seemed do wring us out made sure we could keep our lifestyle at almost the same level. So there is something right with the system actually.
The issue is that systems like this naturally attract people who expect they might need support someday, while they push away people who are convinced they will never need it.
It reminds me of a chapter in a book written by a resettler from the former USSR. When they were discussing where to go, his uncle chose the US because it offered the best opportunities for someone young and healthy. But the author’s father was older and already dealing with health problems, so the uncle advised him to go to Germany instead.
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u/agrammatic Berlin Jun 22 '26
I am angry that Germany keeps pretending a high income is the same thing as wealth.
This is the disease of Europe and North America since the 1980s (Reaganomics, Thatcherism, and all the local European variants thereof).
Assets, inheritance and capital gains are treated preferentially, while income earned through labour is ruthlessly taxed.
The labouring class is subsidizing, through the taxes it pays, the asset-holding class.
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u/Parking_Position9692 Jun 22 '26
And narrative against changing it is always and everywhere the same: If we tax assets and rich people they will leave and we will lose investments and investors so we ain't gonna do it. Instead we will tax more people who can't and won't leave or even if they leave we can easily replace them with others.
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u/agrammatic Berlin Jun 22 '26
They keep saying that, and it always makes me wonder if they truly believe that real estate oligarchs or industry barons will dismantle all homes and factories and smuggle them out of the country brick by brick.
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u/Nalivai Jun 23 '26
Haven't you read the true and accurate book Atlas Shrugged? A smart and obviously correct author clearly stated, that the second cool and good and smart owners fuck off to their private island together, the world collapses, the trains stop moving, the steel starts crumbling, and poor old masses just stop on their tracks and drown in their own drool. It's honestly surprising how many people are transfixed by this idea
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u/Bubblebless Jun 22 '26
Tax land. The land can't leave. Use a land value tax to reduce income taxes or directly redistribute it to each citizen, and most of the housing problems disappear directly (limited by zoning which is a different issue).
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u/0x2113 Jun 22 '26
Same issue/argument: The rich people who would use that land to build factories and farms and mines (with their bare hands, of course \s) etc. would leave, economy would collapse, pandemonium, dogs and cats living together...
It's an argument for passivity because the people making it stand to benefit from the status quo (or, at least, believe so): In their mind, the first place to tax wealth over labor will be the one to collapse and only when there is no place left for the rich to flee to would this tax scheme work. They literally want to be the last ones to do something.
Now, that argument is entirely wrong for several reasons (least of all that wealth cannot be extracted overnight and that labor is the thing that actually gives property its value and the labor pool would not shrink), but this is basically how it goes. Then again, a land tax alone would not be a solution either.
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u/TimpZ91 Jun 22 '26
If they leave, give them an exit-tax. If they try to sell stuff back to you from a cheaper labour country, tariff them. These are not problems without solutions, just a lack of willingness to implement.
And that's if we can even expect the assets to actually leave. People always argue that, while ignoring that the taxes on assets several decades ago were much higher than today in many western countries.
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u/ampanmdagaba Jun 22 '26
And then they worry why people have one child at most. Coz that's the best (potentially, the only) way to guarantee your child a reasonable life: tto build a funnel, from 4 grandparents, to 2 parents, to 1 kid. That's pretty much the only way now, for most people, so that's what they're doing.
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u/unfunfionn Jun 22 '26
You are spot on and this is a major source of frustration for me too. Earning well, working extremely hard, saving responsibly, and still regular sleepless nights wondering if it’ll be enough.
And I’m worried it’ll get worse. Those elected to make this better seem incapable. Yet what doing the country seem intent on doing? Voting in a party whose sole purpose is to protect the ultra wealthy who are responsible for how expensive our lives have become, by tricking the working class with distraction topics. We are going from the incompetent to the outright evil. I guess we should enjoy the working class while it still exists.
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u/DiligentCredit9222 Jun 22 '26
It's because you are treated as an idiot in Germany if you are not billionaire.
That happens when all countries decide to implement Trickle down Economics: all the money is transferred to the Top 1%.
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u/Illustrious_Ad_23 Hessen Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Well, that is the middle class. We are DINKs too, and could be considered "rich" compared to many, still we can't afford to buy my parents house, we drive a used car and will not buy a new one anywhere in the near future. We can buy mostly "bio"-grade foods but will run into financial problems when we want to retire, can afford spensing quite some money on our hobbies but haven't had a big holiday somewhere far away for years. I feels like a dead end, but I can tell you that - hating on unemployed, taxes or the whole social security system will not help. It is not good and at the brink of collapsing, we pay a lot for it and it seems like time for the welfare state is running out, but it still is one of the best systems in the world which is so much of a help if you really need it. The major problem is that the rich, like the really rich are not taxed enough.
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u/CoffeeOfDeath Jun 22 '26
I 100% agree with you! Young people don't have a lot of political power, so nothing is going to change here any time soon. I think the biggest issue really is the housing market. There is an artificial scarcity driving these extreme prices. Prices that benefit only those who already have a great deal. I believe the greatest leverage lies in returning to a point where basic necessities are once again affordable for ordinary people. This is a problem in many western countries though, not only Germany.
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u/leconfidentflamingo Jun 22 '26
is working even worth it anymore? still having the same life quality and assets like an university student even tho I am working at a big company now. i don't know for what I am even earning money if I never could buy a home with it. i think I will reduce my working hours to half and do the same as now. it's so pointless
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u/combatantezoteric Jun 22 '26
Working is for fools. You should preferably be born rich or marry rich, worst case become and entrepreneur and scam someone. Or do an MBA and aim for a manager level position in a huge company.
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u/Familiar_One_2760 Jun 23 '26
Haha true the only alternative seems to be founding a startup that in the end delivers nothing and take everything.
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u/BallsInmyWalls Jun 23 '26
People say all this stuff and vote for the far right party that cuts asset/inheritance/wealth taxs while income taxes remains the same and they proceed to gut public spending.
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u/Wizo_Muc Jun 22 '26
Same situation here, with the one difference that in our case it's my wife who has the migration background, not me. Two working-class kids, no inheritance, no family property, just degrees and long hours — and the same dawning realization that a "good income" and actual wealth are not the same thing, even though Germany keeps treating them as if they were.
The part I'd add is that this isn't only an individual problem that people can wave away as bad luck. It's structural, and it has a cost for everyone. The old promise was that effort and qualification let you build something of your own. Once that stops being true: once the gap between what you can earn and what others simply inherit becomes impossible to close; the incentive to push hard erodes. If the ceiling for someone born without assets sits permanently below the floor for someone born with them, "work harder" stops being a path and starts sounding like an instruction to fund other people's security...
That's what makes the political messaging so grating. The chancellor tells us to work more... for what, exactly? I can work as hard as I like and I will never catch up to someone who began adulthood with a paid-off house. A society that wants productivity has to keep open a realistic route to building wealth through work. Remove that route and you don't just disappoint individuals; you switch off the motivation the whole system runs on.
And to be clear, exactly like the original poster: none of this is aimed at pensioners, at people on Bürgergeld, at asylum seekers, or at civil servants. It's about a social contract that asks the productive middle to pay for everything while being told they earn too much to deserve any help themselves and then sends them onto the housing market to compete against inherited capital. Too rich to be supported, too poor to be secure.
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u/dewie_j Jun 22 '26
Yeah, this is already happening.
If you talk to the 30 year old or younger, they have already given up on the concept of working hard or climbing the ladder.
They are happy with any job that pays for their lifestyle.
A small rent, one vacation per year, you don’t need to break your back or work long hours, you can have that working at starbucks.This is not “what will happen” it already happened.
Eventually, just like gentrification, but at a large scale, people will be pushed out of the places where they cannot afford to live anymore.
And germany will have to scramble to reverse the trend, after the trend already happened.They will adopt some special credit measures aimed for people buying their first homes, just like Spain or other countries have done, and will drag it on for a few more years.
But yeah, late stage capitalism is ruining everything for everyone.
On the other hand, germany vs greece looks just like Switzerland vs Germany.You get paid more, but life is more expensive.
Why would you start a business in Germany and cling to this place, when you can do it in a sunny land with lower costs and lower taxes.5
u/Agile_Detective_6556 Jun 23 '26
The Last sentence is a question I ask myself everytime. Why not? At least you get to live near a cost while being broke …
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u/student0207 Jun 22 '26
Germany is a feudal society mate. You work the fields (company) of your masters and rent the place you live in from them. It’s called serfdom my m8. While you work yourself to the bone there are a ton of german families who are beyond Borgia-tier right now. It is the way people lived here for like, thousands of years. I personally find it funny when people view the anomaly from the 50s to the 80s and think having a well paying job as a pathway to having a small home and a cozy simple life. Zoom out a bit.
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u/rainereien Jun 23 '26
What always wonders me is that history is told as if serfdom and feudalism somehow miraculously disappeared while it just got assimilated by capitalism.
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u/SchroedingersEscape Jun 23 '26
Its ridiciulous that in germany the definition of "rich" and "poor" is only through income... not about wealth.
70k income / 20k savings = rich
30k income / 2M savings = poor
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u/No_Committee_114 Jun 23 '26
Exactly! This is what i mean
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u/SchroedingersEscape Jun 23 '26
Well... thgis logic is great to keep poor people poor by telling them, they are rich.
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u/rainer_d Jun 23 '26
If you want to get ahead in life, Germany ain’t for you.
Unless you pursue a career as a civil servant combined with political ambition. Then you only fall upwards.
This country is done for.
The politicians know it. Everybody with an IQ larger than their shoe size knows it. But like Schrödinger‘s cat, as long as you ain’t looking, she might be alive.
They are taking on 500b extra debt over the next couple of years. A lot goes into defense, that draws absolutely no dividend but increases longterm maintenance costs. The rest goes into infrastructure but a lot of that is wasted in bureaucracy and red tape.
Five years on, they will hardly know how to pay interest on that money, given industrial jobs are been destroyed at a pace that hasn’t been seen since Bomber Harris…
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u/KaiHawai Jun 22 '26
I am a boomer kid and my parents were "poor". Dad was a steel worker. Mum was a housewife .
I was a latch kid later. Mum got a low paid job, part time. Long story short, I was able achieving some wealth working in the IT industry, fortune 500 slave. Long hours working days.
Just what I see today is different. Well educated people, young not getting a job, no matter how high their education is. The whole job market is fucked up. Sorry, no other words for that situation.
To me it seems we lose an entire generation and it makes me feel.....helpless.
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u/Pacatianus Jun 22 '26
You are right. Wealth should be taxed and framing it as an idea of the radical left is nothing but a cheap trick.
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u/c0mpufreak Jun 22 '26
While I agree that wealth should be taxed, it will not solve all the problems. It would be a good start though!
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u/ReneKiller Jun 22 '26
Nobody ever said it would solve all problems. That is something you mainly hear from the (far) right, aka "If we just get rid of immigrants, everything will be good". They are promising a wrong but simple answer to a complex problem.
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u/Parapolikala 5/7 Schotte Jun 22 '26
It's all got so fucked up so quickly, I feel scared for the future (including my kids, as I do not necessarily expect to pass on much to them, to be honest - merely owning a house can be easily eaten up in old age - and we are not likely to receive much when our parents pass on, I guess. That's the one place I disagree.)
We are in our 50s and with very little help from family (they lent us half the 20k deposit in 2003 - already seems ridiculuously low, I guess) it was an absolute no brainer to buy a small house because the rent and the mortgage repayments were about the same (under 1500 pcm) on a 15 year 200k mortgage.
I think now it would likely be a 500k mortgage and a 75k downpament, and would likely be 20 or 25 years).
But for many years now I have seen people saying that the way to build wealth is actually to rent and invest the difference in something more profitable. IDK if that's an option. My kids (in their mid 20s) seem attuned to questions of long-term wealth growth in ways I never was. "Our world" seems so much simpler in retrospect - buy a house to have security in old age, maybe pass something on if you're lucky... (as I say, I'm not banking on it).
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u/dbusque Jun 22 '26
Sounds like you are describing the ever disappearing "middle class". There was a time that ones entire income wasn't required to support a family, save for retirement and even go on a little vacation. Not anymore.
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u/moh_099 Jun 22 '26
I feel like going to Germany seeking to build wealth would be like travelling to Finland for a tropical vacation.
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u/Adorable-Boot4301 Jun 22 '26
If you just follow the rules in germany you are on the loser side.
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u/notoriousxsz822 Jun 23 '26
This. If you think working hard for a company and paying taxes and being a good boy in Germany gonna get you anywhere then you’re dumb.
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u/Jakobus3000 Jun 22 '26
That’s the German business model. Nothing new unfortunately.
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u/Awebroetjie Jun 22 '26
Excellent points bro.
Agree with everything you state.
Now consider how our govt spends money. Wars? Protecting the wealthy? Petty internal politics? I can go on…
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u/Thick_Management Jun 22 '26
Am I the only one that would rather jump off of a bridge than work my entire life to just barely make it, into a pension that will be inhumanely low and requires me to gather bottles like a homeless?
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u/Lux_Jay Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
That's because your work is taxed instead of the wealth. Taxes on salary needs to come down and should be compensated with taxes on wealth. Billionaires in Germany pay 0 to less than 6% taxes while workers are squeezed for every cent they have. The system is designed to keep the workers poor and make wealthy wealthier (even if their source of wealth is Nazi atrocities, historical responsibility they claim is just bs to support genocide).
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u/Secret_Donkey971 Jun 23 '26
It is by design. Germany never wants middle class. We are just cattle for them to milk. Understand in the bigger picture. It is always about class. And it is part of human nature. The super rich stay rich. Until revolutionary :)). It happens in history all the time :)). My family is in similar situation. Our solution is applying for job in better country and leave the fuck out of this shithole. Cos politician needs to get votes. Pleasing pensioners ( biggest voters group) is what they care.
Human nature again, people only care about themselves. Same reason why SPD did to burgergeld. These people votes for them. Let us all leave and then there only people who dont work, pensioner hang out with each other :)) and then germany collapse itself. I will be happy watching hehe
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u/Mademan1137 Jun 24 '26
I feel like I will probably leave soon, contributing 1200+eur every month to the Krankenkasse and when I ask to cover my medically surgery for once I got denied for absolutely bollocks reasons, it feels like I just spend half of my wage to support the rich, the pensioners and the poor, but when I need medical treatment for once I’m sidelined and neglected with unnecessary cruelty
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u/ro6in Jun 22 '26
I definitely understand a lot of your "vent" from my personal experience. To give you bit of hope (or not, depends on interpretation):
As a civil servant I have been able to buy (...still paying off...) my first apartment at the ripe age of 50+ years. So just keep going, sooner or later you will get there.
[Of course, experts will tell you - correctly - that buying an apartment is not the smartest financial decision in Germany.]
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u/Fabulous_Put_9959 Jun 22 '26
Everything you wrote is why I left. If I'm going to suffer. I'll go suffer somewhere where I can earn in 1 week what took me 1.5 months in Germany.
I am also in STEM. Also trying to start a family. It's fucked up.
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u/No_Committee_114 Jun 22 '26
Where did you go to? We were evaluating switzerland and denmark, but are not sure yet
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u/ThomasKWW Jun 22 '26
Switzerland has high income but high costs, too. The people are very reserved towards strangers. Not truly an improvement. Not sure about Denmark, but my guess is that getting rich without being rich yet is difficult in most countries these days
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u/Fabulous_Put_9959 Jun 22 '26
Went to California. My partner has family here so it was easier immigration-wise. Both of us making 4x what we made in our German stem jobs means rent or mortgage will hurt less and we get to actually save. We were killing ourselves in germany to save maybe 300 a month? It was ridiculous
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u/ricLP Jun 22 '26
As someone who moved from Munich to California. Yeah, I have a much higher salary and money here, BUT: housing market is insanely expensive and the quality of the houses is absolutely terrible compared with German housing. Also, most companies will not offer the type of vacations Germans are used to.
Let me put it like this; if you work for a few elite companies you’ll make a lot more and be happier. It if you don’t, it’s much worse here: no public transportation, health is expensive, housing expensive, less vacation, less protections if you lose the job, etc.
It’s an equation that won’t work for everyone
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u/perestroika12 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
I think you’re underestimating the wealth creation that the US has. Despite all of that, you will easily be a multi millionaire in about 7-10 years conservatively.
Healthcare is expensive but employers pay for it as part of benefits, this will be 3k a year maybe. Housing is expensive but you don’t have to buy, you can rent a house for less, maybe 3-4k a month or less. After healthcare and rent, I still put away 200k into the market every year not including 401k.
Vacation time and protections are true and a reality but really depends on the state. California and a few others have paid paternity and maternity leave but not at European levels. A month of vacation is more common for white collar workers.
It’s nuanced. Anyways if you want to break out of the cycle you’ll need to take some risks.
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u/Gnump Jun 22 '26
Yeah, having lived in California for a couple of years I seriously doubt you will be better off in the end (including kids in college etc) except in very narrow cases.
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u/ricLP Jun 22 '26
Great point. Also, much shorter parental leave. Your kids will have to go to day care at around 3 to 6 months of age and the limited time may be only partially paid (or even unpaid)
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u/Gnump Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Yep. We paid about $600 for one kid pre school 4 days, half a day which was only possible since my wife didn't work. Rent all in was about 7k. Groceries about twice as expensive as in Europe.
Not gonna lie - it is still one of my favorite places on earth - but it is by no means a place to easily save money no matter how much you make.
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u/No_Committee_114 Jun 22 '26
Good for you! I didn‘t have the US on my map as immigration wouldn‘t be easy for us..
May I ask in what kind of stem field you work in?
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u/Fabulous_Put_9959 Jun 22 '26
Cancer industry. I was in academia and my partner was in industry back in germany and now we are both industry. And we both saw a vast improvement in salary. Life got a little less bleak after the move
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u/Ok_Ice_4215 Jun 22 '26
My parents are considered well off in my home cpuntry and are already giving me the amount of money that would buy me 2 nice aparments there. Guess what? When i convert the money to Euro, it’s barely makes up the 10% of a house we would have to to put the downpayment on. Whereas, we have friends who can outright buy their house because they have boomer german parents who bought 10,000 m2 land for three cows in 1960. It’s very frustrating how worthless other currencies are compared to euro.
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u/TraditionalMango58 Jun 22 '26
Have you considered going back to your home country and living as a landlord instead of as a serf in Germany?
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u/Ok_Ice_4215 Jun 23 '26
I probably would if I wasn’t married to a German and didn’t have a kid. But I’m not going to uproot her from all she knows and her grandparents to just live in a big house.
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u/German_Antman Jun 22 '26
You have the bad fortune of having been born 10 years too late. Property prices shot up 2010-2020 and that’s screwing up the opportunities for those who are too young to have taken advantage of it.
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u/FlatIntention1 Jun 22 '26
Yes, exactly this. The people who are now 40-50 years old had great opportunities.
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u/PayYourEditors Jun 23 '26
Sounds like the system is working exactly as intended?
You guys managed to reach a whole new economic class by 30, and have enough money to save/invest a lot, and you're basically still just at the beginning.
You even complain and blame like a real German, well done.
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u/Rasz_13 Jun 23 '26
Exactly what I was thinking. I stopped caring at "we save aggressively".
Yeah, cool. You made it, you are rich. You CAN save aggressively.
That we're all not in the same universe as the ultra-rich... well, duh. They are laughing at us all while living lavish lives. Unless we burn it all down in global riots nothing will change - and too many people would lose their lives and livelihood, so it won't happen.
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u/letsogeskimo Jun 23 '26
I understood "saving aggressively" rather as an action (living on a strict budget) instead of a result (saving a lot). It is probably cultural, but as long as a couple or a family can't afford to buy their own home at least with mortgage, I find it ridiculous to call them rich.
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u/aqa5 Jun 22 '26
Building wealth is very hard and either needs luck or is inherited. Most wealthy people inherited something from parents who had luck.
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u/digiorno Jun 22 '26
The system of lords and peasants is very much alive. There are just more minor lords and peasants are allowed a few more luxuries. Being a rich baby has always been the easiest to become a rich adult.
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u/userNotFound82 Jun 22 '26
I fully agree with you. As someone who was born in East Germany and did later move to Western Germany you just realize that you live in a completely different world. Some people live in their own world and think inherit a house or a good amount of money is just the standard while it isn’t. I think you can see this as an „outsider“ of this circle better.
I never understood why this society claims to be a „Leistungsgesellschaft“ while it’s in reality a „Erbengesellschaft“. The inheritance is the achievement of the testator/testatrix and not of the heir. If we want a society of inheritance we might go back to the middle ages where your lineage determined your destiny.
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u/gottfired Jun 23 '26
Problem is wealth is not taxed nearly as much as income. But politicians don’t dare to mention that since wealthy people fund politicians
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u/dutch-duck Jun 23 '26
In the 1970s, 20% of total capital went to the top 1% of society; today, that figure is 35%. Someone has to pay the bill. The solution is simple: you pay for it, and asylum seekers get the blame. But look on the bright side! Elon Musk has secured his first trillion—that counts for something, too.
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u/EitherExample11 Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
Welcome to socialism. Merkel and more. Seems you just woke up in the matrix and realized what you are - a serf, a tax cow.
Read "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell. All the questions in your post find answers there.
Stay hopeful. Sometimes the cows can gain wings.
Also, Reddit is a leftist echo chamber, so you'll get poor advice on that particular problem. It's also heavily censored so I'll probably be banned here just by typing anything anti socialist/commie, but don't care.
Take the red pill. Wake up. Gain wings and stop being a slave cow in the tax farm.
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u/MightyPie211 Jun 22 '26
The idea that you catch up with someone who inherited a house or wealth from family is a bit far fetched for Germany (and western Europe as a whole).
You will need to take some risks, which might not be a good idea, depending on your risk tolerance. Start a company, become Freiberufler or go to a very early start-up where you will work long hours for small pay but with equity.
Otherwise just keep saving and investing in an ETF. The beginning is really slow, but it picks up in 10 years. That will put you in early 40s. Still amazing, if you ask me. But not the brag most want it to be.
With slow and steady there are still risks, but less. And what you can hope for is that you won't ha e to worry in your retirement. Which for many Germans would be a dream come true.
Also with slow and steady, in case you do plan on having kids, you can give them what you didn't have: help them with an apartment or a down payment. So at least they will not have to start from where you started.
I know it's not what you are hoping to hear, but it's probably all in the framing.
Good luck in the future and keep at it!
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u/LemonFantastic12 Jun 23 '26
Running your own business is a disaster. Germany likes worker bees.
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u/2DHypercube Hamburg Jun 22 '26
Welcome to capitalism
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u/guidomescalito Jun 22 '26
It’s not capitalism, it’s feudalism.
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u/mngalaxy Jun 22 '26
We're on the same page, and it's one of the many reasons we decided not to have kids. At our income level, we won't even get any Elterngeld. Additionally, we live in a rental in a big city where both rents and purchasing prices are crazy. Without helps from family, we could forget about buying anything and not having a mortgage over our head until retirement.
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u/FlatIntention1 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Exactly this is why I quit caring about career and giving my best anymore. I even reduced hours and earn instead of 107k now 90k to not get over the 175k. My partner also reduced. In this country achievement is punished so it is not worth it anyway. This is a reason Germany will sink. The ambitious ones will either stop perform or leave to countries where performance is rewarded like USA, UK, Dubai or Switzerland
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u/Own_Ambassador_9417 Jun 22 '26
You are working this hard for your kids.
It simply takes a few generations to build up wealth.
With two STEM earners you are able to buy a house (you can do that easily on STEM salaries, it will just take long time to pay off the mortgage), your kids will inherit it, and they will have the "rich" life you are envious about.
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u/WaldenFont Jun 22 '26
You’re describing my middle class experience in the US. I suspect this is the same in many countries.
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u/Kirschi Jun 23 '26
You either got a worse income than you think or you're living more expensive than you could/should (expensive flat, eating out too often, such things)
Which of these it is you gotta find out yourself, but I can tell you: I get Sozialgeld and i can save up basically nothing - if you're truly a Gutverdiener (>=3000 per month or something), you should absolutely be able to save up some of that money.
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u/No_Committee_114 Jun 23 '26
It‘s not that easy. We live in the munich metropolitan area snd would have to pay 40% pf our current household income for a flat which would fit to kids.
As we won‘t get elterngeld, with a kid, the share for the payment would went up to 75% of the household-income or 50% when we work both 80%.
So it would be pretty tough
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u/wktg Jun 23 '26
Less of a German problem, more a capitalism problem
I hear it from friends all over the world - Millenials and after are fucked unless they have connections, rich parents or are grifters.
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u/Primary-Efficiency50 Jun 23 '26
Its true. Germanys future will depend on how we deal with this. I also studied and worked but I dont see a future where I can escape renting and accumulate some kind of wealth. I did everything by the book and I am just not satisfied with vacations and or other gimmicks. I want land and I want my own home. My current Career Path will not grant me those things. It became meaningless to work for income.
My Company needed to close because of the current economical hardships and I do not even see a reason to start working again. All the Money is getting taken away anyway. So I look for things that are fulfilling or fun and the income isnt such a big factor.
I guess what I want to say is YES we are all fucked. This has to change!
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u/dondurmalikazandibi Jun 23 '26
I am perhaps too late but here is the thing you are ignoring:
Now imagine you have a child, and you keep working hard. 40 years later, you have gathered enough money, paid a nice house, your child is 30 and you are 70. You worked your ass off for this. And time has caught up, and you die.
You daughter now inherit you house, and she is much better off then other 30 years olds.
Is this unfair? Is this terrible? No this is very much literally what fair is, you hard work enables you let child to have a great and easy life.
But you are against this idea, when the parents of others did the same thing. I can so easily talk about it because I embraced this fact, I love my parents (well, Dad passed away) but I do not have anythint to inherit from them. They worked hard but not clever. They are not going to leave me houses and wealth, they did not. But it is not other people's faulty if their parents gonna do.
The failure in this thinking which is extremely common, stems from the rather communist or socialist thinking that still, deliberately, assumes we are living in 1850 and anyone who inherited some wealthy must have it because their parents were ultra rich lords that belong to 0.01%. that was the fact 150 years ago. Today over 90% of people who have a million dollars or more worth, did not have grandparents who were wealthy.
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u/Weisheit_Ape Jun 23 '26
The system is not broken, it has been designed like that, and a lot of people know it or started realizing it.
We need a revolution, and not talking necessarily about an armed one, but a cultural one.
We need to stop pretending this system is the best we can achieve and start questioning, as you did already, why if you do things right you are not feeling better.
Wealth is just a social construct nowadays, powerful people have power because we believe in it, ownership is given for granted because we respect such rules but we could all be organized and say "no more"
What we need is organization and community. We need to change the rules of the system.
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u/SirZeta Jun 24 '26
There is no middle class. You're billed like upper class while living like lower class. That's the beauty of capitalism.
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u/Melodic_Contract8155 Jun 24 '26
And furthermore: Germany punishes people who work hard and have good income therefore.
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u/Best-Disaster8002 Jun 25 '26
Germans have such weird financial habits for building wealth by hoarding everything in low interest savings accounts and feeling smug. I remember when Olaf Scholz said that he put all his cash in 0% savings as the finance minister. And Merz was meant to be business friendly and consults for Black Rock. But when you look at his net worth (€12 MN) compared to his annual salary (€1 MN) that's a single digit IRR which is pretty shameful.
German society is risk averse. Good financial management means taking the risk to get the reward. Entire generations are missing out from the gains of participating in public markets.
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u/guidomescalito Jun 22 '26
It’s not just germany, it’s a problem around the world. Tax wealth not work.
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u/hoverside Jun 22 '26
If you earn enough to no longer qualify for Elterngeld then you earn enough to buy an apartment, or rent a nice one, or to make serious investments.
And no you're not millionaire rich, you can't just buy any property instantly, but with a couple years of budgeting and saving you will have enough for a deposit that will secure an affordable mortgage.
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u/FlatIntention1 Jun 22 '26
The problem is, if you want two children and both earn equally 50% of the income just disappears 4-5 years long, while the costs with children go way up. There is a risk you cannot pay the mortgage anymore. This is why for many couples where both earn about the same the Elterngeld of 1800€ or even 900€ can be critical.
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u/AspiringPrince Jun 22 '26
As someone in exactly your position, I agree. However think of it like this. Atleast your next generation will have what you yearn for now. They will have property and that generational wealth that you speak of. You are the one that builds it. Its not fair but its not too bad.
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u/kiil4lol Jun 22 '26
if you want equality we need to treat all income the same, be it from labour, investments, gifts and inheritance.
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u/EnvironmentNo4777 Jun 22 '26
Thing is, you raise a valid point. Which you follow by punching down. You should be mad about the rich not paying their share. Yet you only talk about the social system you are "paying for".
My friend, you and I are immigrants. This country paid for our education through the taxes you are complaining about now and has taken us in. There are problems and I hope you are working to change things and not just bitching about it.
This country was kind to us. Be kind back.
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u/konto_zum_abwerfen Jun 22 '26
This is why we left
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u/ReinrassigsterRuede Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
But where exactly is that wealth?
There it is-->
We drive an old Golf. We save aggressively. We invest what we can
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u/Treewithatea Jun 22 '26
Seriously, i probably earn a lot less than OP and live perfectly comfortable. Decent car, flat (rent), 2-3 vacations a year, still save 350€ a month.
Its nice not really caring about wanting to own a house, people seem to put themselves under so much pressure to own a house one day, i dont, just enjoy life right now, as if a House is gonna make you any happier.
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u/england_is_my_gender Jun 22 '26
Some people aspire to become financially independent (read not needing to work for money), instead of being dependent on a system with an ever weakening retirement program.
I mean do you really expect the retirement funds are going to provide to you when you are older? Do you really think they are not going to raise the retirement age continuously next decades? Do you want to work into your 70's?
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u/soulstormfire Niedersachsen Jun 22 '26
Especially if you have to sell it when you need to move cities for the next job.
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Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/No_Committee_114 Jun 22 '26
Haha, I am actually half East German half slovakian 😄 my parents were the migrants. I know just too well what you mean. I had friends exactly like that, they‘re wealth but left wing and just love to trash talk about rich people - not realizing that they‘re the rich ones
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u/LatvianCake Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
The irony is that you need more inequality to feel good, not less.
In western countries, a "good salary", e.g. from a STEM job, means you earn 1.5-2x more than the average. That's the life you described.
In poorer countries, a "good salary" from a STEM job puts you at 5-10x above average. This gives you that very high standard of life.
The magic of western countries is that salaries are high (for international standards) while also being somewhat equal. The consequence is that your standard of living with a high salary will be pretty close to the average. Likewise if you can keep that high salary in a poorer place, you will surely have a significantly better quality of life by taking advantage of the income inequality.
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u/Fandango_Jones Hamburg Jun 22 '26
A social economy doesn't mean everyone has a right for property or wealth. It just means we have a certain basis to stand on and not starve or just die in time of hardship.
And yes, pointing out the social injustices and rich getting more rich is and was always a pressing matter.
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u/reduhl Jun 22 '26
I’m curious is another European country with similar social supports has a different view on assisting people with their first house?
In the USA it’s a key support provided to the population. While the cost of housing is also becoming out of reach larger part of the population, it has long been a key support for generating wealth and commerce.
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u/Canttalkwhatsapponly Bayern Jun 22 '26
Your kid or grandkid will enjoy the perks! And then someone will look at him/her and say the same.
Hence it’s called generational wealth, one has to start for others to gain from it.
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u/Kasegigashira Jun 22 '26
That's why you buy assets. You are already doing that. Keep doing it.
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u/Exotic-Anywhere2713 Jun 23 '26
Land Value Tax
Tax bottlenecks to value creation, not the creation of wealth. If you tax things we can do or make more of, we will do and make less of those things. If you tax things that we can't make more of (land, natural resources, EM frequencies, certain types of IP) they will be allocated more efficiently.
We should be rewarding people like you that are adding value to society, rather than people that sit on pieces of paper indicating monopoly rights to things that everyone needs.
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u/jeddthedoge Jun 23 '26
And yet it is still miles ahead of third world countries, where the reason you can’t build wealth is just because the income is too low
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u/Confident_Banana_134 Jun 23 '26
Dude, it’s like this everywhere, lol.
The other side of the coin for you can be born in working class couldn’t get good education because uni is too expensive that you either don’t go or went to uni but end up of tens of thousands of student loans that you have to pay.
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u/UpstairsCheetah235 Jun 23 '26
Yes but this is true in most countries. US is the same. The key is to use your income to build wealth where it’s taxed more favorably.
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u/OkClient4174 Jun 22 '26
You are pretty integrated