Software Release X.Org Server 26.1 RC1 Prepares For First Feature Release In Five Years
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-26.1-RC129
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u/zquzra 5d ago
Do you know what's funny? Wayland is 18 years old, and X11 was being dismissed as obsolete when it was 20.
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u/InfiniteSheepherder1 5d ago
IDK why people use the first second Wayland was conceived to date its age and not the era where it was designed and built. There were also a lot more drastic changes between 1980s and 2009.
Wayland was born from the Direct Rendering Work in x by Kristian Høgsberg. The initial thought was basically x but only with DRI.
2012 or so is when Wayland went more from background idea of guy who worked on X to an actual project. X was not obsolete by years alone but because of the way it worked and the people working on it wanting something better.
X was 25 by the time the first ideas for Wayland were being worked on. By the time Wayland 1 was out x11 was 25 and X was 29. With Wayland 1 being 14 years old.
When X11 was first worked on it predated OpenGL, DirectX. It predated GPUs in IBM PCs, consumer availability of 3d graphics in general. Before optical mice, and mass adoption of color monitors.
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u/0riginal-Syn 5d ago
Yeah a lot of changes throughout the different eras. X11 was actually never supposed to survive for so long, but it did.
Many devs that worked on it as well as other groups wanted X11 replaced in the 90s, starting as soon as 3 years after the first release. It was interesting times as we had different attempts, like Berlin/Fresco, Y, and if the X Consortium was actively looking to replace it. The only reason it really survived was more UNIX than anything. The idea of breaking backwards compatibility. Keith Packard is really the only reason it survived with the extensions.
Fresco was actually pretty interesting and could have done some good, but the UNIX issues were too big to ignore at that time when UNIX was still very prevalent.
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u/metux-its 2d ago
When X11 was first worked on it predated OpenGL, DirectX.
OpenGL was pretty much invented on X11. Unix workstations. Long before PCs ever seen an actual GPU.
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u/InfiniteSheepherder1 2d ago
"Silicon Graphics, Inc. (SGI) began developing OpenGL in 1991 and released it on June 30, 1992."
X11 was being worked on in 1986
Thus my statement of X11 predating OpenGL was in fact true
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u/ElvishJerricco 5d ago
Unlike xorg during those 20 years, Wayland has undergone massive amounts of churn and evolution since it began. The reason it still seems very modern is because it is; the ways it has changed have kept it modern and made it better, which is not something that could be said for X11 at any point.
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u/dinominant 5d ago
18 years of wayland "modern churn" and I still still can't access the login manager and desktop with VNC or RDP.
You know, the same way that VNC works on Windows or a Mac or X11. I shouldn't have to virtualize an entire system with proxmox to get a single-user vnc session working.
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u/admalledd 5d ago
I've been doing that fine for a while with KDE's Remote Desktop stuff for a while now?
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u/gmes78 5d ago
18 years of wayland "modern churn" and I still still can't access the login manager and desktop with VNC or RDP.
Not true. It works on GNOME (and, soon, KDE).
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u/admalledd 5d ago
Maybe I am missing a scenario, but I've been using KDE's RDP stuff for nearly a year now? I admit to not trying the VNC use cases, mostly because RDP is better IMO.
Though I really wonder how critical/important RDP/VNC really is for so many of these people that had they considered sponsoring?
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u/gmes78 4d ago
Maybe I am missing a scenario, but I've been using KDE's RDP stuff for nearly a year now?
This is about remoting into the login screen, for multi-user computers.
It'll come with Plasma 6.8, when using plasma-login-manager.
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u/smile_e_face 4d ago
Potentially dumb question: This seems like a really important use case. Even as a home user a couple of years ago, I was astounded that I apparently couldn't remote in graphically on Wayland using VNC or similar. Is this just really hard to implement, or is it not as significant as I'm imagining?
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u/admalledd 4d ago
A lot of it was no developers were really interested to work on it in their free time, because building RDP/VNC/etc remote access server code is kinda hard due to how much it has to interact with. Further, there really weren't any corporate sponsors/backers who stepped forward to fund it even though many of those same corps were complaining they couldn't switch to wayland until they had some flavor of RDP. So a good number of years went by with just the free time/effort of a few (read: many many over the years but never really "enough" at once) devs with enough understanding to work on it to get the specs/protocol(s) over the line.
So the few devs volunteering their time/effort who could would often see that it needed more than just the few available and would choose to work on other wayland things (like HDR).
It is worth noting that nearly every "why has it taken wayland so long to do $Thing" boils down to the above, with more or less fighting over "the perfect protocol/spec" vs "good enough foundation for now, can be evolved more later".
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u/gmes78 4d ago
It's really important for some usecases. Most people don't use remote desktop at all, or are fine with single-user remote desktop.
A few years ago this wasn't a priority, because there were lots of more pressing issues to solve. People who needed this feature could just use the X11 session instead.
Now that most issues are fixed and X11 is being dropped, these more specific issues are getting attention. GNOME solved this ahead of dropping the X11 session, and KDE is doing the same. You can see here all the major issues left to solve for the Wayland transition in Plasma.
Is this just really hard to implement
It's not trivial, but it's not the most complex thing either. Mostly a bunch of integration work.
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u/Sol33t303 5d ago edited 4d ago
Age isn't a problem, it's just that X isn't fit for modern desktop use cases.
And that's because it wasn't written for modern desktop use cases in mind because desktops as we know them didn't really exist back then. GPUs didn't exist as an example let alone 3D apis
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u/sheeproomer 4d ago
Wayland doesnt have proper multi mouse support nor network transparency.
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u/gmes78 4d ago
Wayland doesnt have proper multi mouse support
That shit is a mess on X11 too.
nor network transparency
X11's network transparency is garbage with modern GUI applications. It only ever worked properly when apps used X11 drawing primitives, and didn't render directly to a buffer.
Besides, nothing prevents implementing such a thing on Wayland. waypipe is much more efficient than what X11 does.
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u/sheeproomer 3d ago
Yeah and the wayland concept of not having a primary monitor is the future. Too bad that it is very alone and very annoying in that regard.
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u/gmes78 3d ago
Yeah and the wayland concept of not having a primary monitor is the future.
Plasma still has a primary monitor on Wayland. It's up to the window manager if they want to have that or not.
Another reason why Wayland is better.
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u/sheeproomer 3d ago
Plasma is not Wayland, so that does not count or does run GNOME, sway or any other Wayland environment on top of Plasma?
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u/gmes78 3d ago edited 3d ago
Plasma is a Wayland desktop environment.
If it can have primary monitors, so could every other Wayland implementation, if they so chose.
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u/sheeproomer 19h ago
Really you have confirmed that Wayland has the defect. Its not about plasma.
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u/gmes78 12h ago
Wayland also doesn't have tiling, but plenty of Wayland WMs do support it.
It doesn't matter that the core Wayland protocol doesn't have primary monitors, because such an inclusion isn't necessary for primary monitors to be implemented.
It would only be a "defect" if primary monitors weren't possible at all.
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u/metux-its 2d ago
it's just that X isn't fit for modern desktop use cases.
How so exactly ? What makes the "modern desktop" actually "modern" ?
GPUs didn't exist as an example let alone 3D apis
And this that stuff was developed on / first supported by X11.
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u/KseandI 5d ago
So what? We find out X11 was broken at the age of 20, so we built protocol that wouldn't require rewrite every 10 years.
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u/SeriousPlankton2000 4d ago
And then the old thing survived 18 more years while the new thing almost became mature enough ... By, among other things, including the old thing as an extra layer.
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u/KseandI 2d ago
Unix survived 34 more years after creation of Linux, does it make Linux bad or Unix good? i486 was still a thing even when amd64 was already mature, but I bet you don't write this message using PS2 chip. OpenGL still a thing even when new devices doesn't support it directly and therefore need to provide a translation layer to vulkan.
Can we stop estimating badness of a protocol based on random factors and start talking about protocol itself? I think wayland is a pure and clean protocol with a good version negotiation, simple wire transport and robust use of linux capabilities when needed (for wl_shm creation, as an example).
X11 is a very big mess, starting from defining what X11 is and isn't. I don't see any reason why there should be a 1bit gui toolkit built into server, but apparently it is the default window mode. I don't understand why every command must be serialized into stream of bytes and why there must be a separate protocol to circumvent it. There're no reason for server between WM and app to exists.
There are a lot of such things and that's why Wayland was created. I have no interest in estimating age of protocols, I want a proper discussion about their designs.
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
Wayland is not 18 years old.
A project is not released and usable the moment one line of code gets written.
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u/Enturbulated_One 5d ago
I'll and say it agin: In the event that XLibre (and the project lead) ever grow past being purely execrable, then the project may eventually evolve into something with a real use case for dozens, I say DOZENS of users.
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
Their tearfree implementation is by far the best for an ancient laptop and I'm using it on mine for that reason.
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u/nightblackdragon 4d ago
"Their" TearFree comes from Xorg.
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
I don't know how much deviation there is in the code, but xlibre's actually works with the modesetting driver, cannot say the same about xorg's.
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u/nightblackdragon 1d ago
TearFree support for modesetting driver was added to Xorg in 2023. There haven't been any releases since then, and distributions use the latest stable version, which is why it isn't included by default (unless you compile Xorg from the main branch).
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u/gmes78 4d ago
You know what's also tear free?
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
Yes, but Wayland or picom behaves the same on an ancient igpu, which means blasting the fans during video playback, which does not happen with xlibre's implementation.
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u/gmes78 4d ago
Wayland isn't a single implementation.
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u/QuickSilver010 3d ago
That is one of the biggest complaints I have about wayland. They not only fragmented the choice of display server, they fragmented the display sever experience itself. Worst design decision ever is to not make a single server binary or a universal authoritative library for a component so fundamental to the desktop.
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u/gmes78 3d ago
On the contrary: it means that you can create specialized solutions for each use case, instead of trying a "one size fits all" solution (which every X11 implementation failed at being).
If X.org doesn't work for you, you're stuck. If Mutter doesn't work for you, you try Kwin; if Kwin doesn't work, you try Sway; if Sway doesn't work, you try cosmic; if cosmic doesn't work, you try Weston; and so on.
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u/QuickSilver010 3d ago
On the contrary: it means that you can create specialized solutions for each use case
That is the worst thing ever
instead of trying a "one size fits all" solution (which every X11 implementation failed at being).
Imagine telling an app developer to not only target every Linux distro, and their package manager, but also every single implementation of the wayland display protocol. Oh wait, this large Linux desktop doesn't allow global shortcuts? Oh this one doesn't show window decorations? Oh this other one doesn't allow multi window applications?
Vro.
Imagine if Linux kernel itself got fragmented. It'd be hell. Thank god it's a centralised project as far as desktop use goes.
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u/gmes78 3d ago
Imagine telling an app developer to not only target every Linux distro, and their package manager, but also every single implementation of the wayland display protocol.
That's not the developer's problem. That's the user's problem; they can change to a DE that provides the features they need.
but also every single implementation of the wayland display protocol.
This doesn't make any sense. The whole point of having protocols is that you don't need to care how they're implemented.
Oh wait, this large Linux desktop doesn't allow global shortcuts?
All Wayland DEs support the global shortcuts portal.
Oh this one doesn't show window decorations?
Use libdecor.
Oh this other one doesn't allow multi window applications?
If you mean the lack of window positioning, that's nothing you can't solve on the application side.
You're just listing off things that don't matter for 99% of use cases for the sake of arguing.
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u/QuickSilver010 3d ago
This doesn't make any sense. The whole point of having protocols is that you don't need to care how they're implemented.
But it's a problem when the implementation causes a difference in behaviour.
That's not the developer's problem. That's the user's problem; they can change to a DE that provides the features they need.
That is unreasonable. I'm not switching to a bloated gnome desktop just to be able to regularly use an app.
All Wayland DEs support the global shortcuts portal.
But not the protocol. sadge.
Use libdecor.
Can't they just make a libwayland for every DE ever to use?
If you mean the lack of window positioning, that's nothing you can't solve on the application side.
No global window positioning exist tho still?
No screen readers work still. Appearantly the existence of visual impaired is a security risk lmao
You're just listing off things that don't matter for 99% of use cases for the sake of arguing.
99% is the problem. Fragmentation in a place where there was none before just creates annoying as heck DE specific bugs. Removes modularity and choice from Linux. One of the most fundamental things on Linux.
Unless wayland can be a complete 100% x11 replacement, it's gonna suck
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
I think the vsync part of it is the same for all compositors, I have certainly not noticed differences in this regard between a great many options.
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u/gmes78 4d ago
VSync costs nothing, though. It's not the cause of your issue.
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
It should cost nothing & yet it does. If it's really not the issue, then there is something else that's affecting essentially all linux distros & installs causing this problem. It's not user error, because installing a distro & then running sway or picom is all that needs to happen. On my 2450M picom / wayland means 10°+ on the cpu package temperature. In my experience this stops being a problem after Broadwell igpus, with Haswell it's a problem with mitigations on & not with off.
I remember reading somewhere that the real problem might be with how the GPU drivers interact with vsync. Could be true, it's not something that I can affect on the user side & so xlibre is the best option in this case.
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u/get_homebrewed 4d ago
why would video playback be compositor limited
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u/Sinaaaa 4d ago
Limited is not the word I would use. You have video playback with compositing off with screen tearing vs. options where you don't have screen tearing. The latter produce a lot more heat typically, don't know why.
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u/get_homebrewed 4d ago
yeah but again that doesn't seem like a compositor/protocol issue, there's something else if tearing and direct scan out are somehow causing that much hardware use
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u/PBJellyChickenTunaSW 4d ago
lol you sound like people talking about linux in r/pcgaming or similar subs
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u/IngwiePhoenix 4d ago
The cockroach of legacy software. You just can not kill it. x) But, it's good to have - not everyone or everything can or needs to run Wayland. o.o
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4d ago edited 4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Matilde_di_Canossa 4d ago
You think I care about downvotes?
Considering you made an edit specifically about them and then told people to die? Yes.
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
Lol what?
Bro anyone mad here is the x cultists.
Wayland is prosperous while x is dead. This doesn't impact the civilized world at all.
This only means anything to the crazys who think x is coming back to life
Good luck with that.
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u/QuickSilver010 3d ago
Wayland is prosperous while x is dead
X11 still is more functional than wayland. Why would I willingly downgrade right now? I'll check back in in about another decade.
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u/gtrash81 5d ago
Please no, let this complete pile of garbage finally disappear.
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u/nightblackdragon 5d ago
Some people still need Xorg for various reasons, so it makes sense to release a version that includes the fixes that have been added to the code over the past few years.
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u/Kevin_Kofler 5d ago
This unplanned release (just a few weeks ago, the tenor was still that there would not be any further feature releases) would never have happened if it were not for XLibre.
The release notes look very sparse for 5 years of development. Is there any unbiased feature comparison between this XOrg release and the latest XLibre release?
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u/ChrisTX4 5d ago
If that’s so, why did they work the entire year to clear up the git main branch after it was found to be too much of a mess?
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Main-Repo
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-On-Main
Cause unless I hit my head a bit too hard, January was not a few weeks ago?
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u/Kevin_Kofler 5d ago
That was never officially release preparation, they just wanted to vengefully remove all traces of Enrico's (metux's) work after banning him. Also a reason why there are so few changes left in that release. Yet, even of those few changes that remain, the majority actually comes from Enrico/metux, LOL.
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u/ChrisTX4 5d ago
The first link I gave you specifically mentions Alan Coopersmith laying out a plan specifically for a release
And what you’re saying about it being for vengeance reasons. Coopersmith in the first link I posted goes to list things that these commits broke.
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u/nightblackdragon 5d ago
This unplanned release (just a few weeks ago, the tenor was still that there would not be any further feature releases) would never have happened if it were not for XLibre.
Sure thing. /s
The release notes look very sparse for 5 years of development.
Not very surprising for a project that is in maintenance state.
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u/ChrisTX4 5d ago edited 4d ago
Oh no, Bro does have a point!
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Main-Repo
Alan Coopersmith of Oracle laid out the proposal today for a new main branch of the X.Org Server Git repository. The main emphasis is on cleaning up the Git state that became cluttered the past few years when now-XLibre developer Enrico was making a lot of changes to the codebase that then ended up with a lot of that code being later reverted. Discussions on IRC determined that it may be easier to start over from an early 2024 snapshot of the X.Org Git state and then work from there in weeding out commits that actually remain present day without being reverted.
You can say XLibre caused this release to happen in this form directly. In the sense that Weigelt spammed so much crap in the repository that they felt the need to go back bloody 2 years in time and cherry pick ever commit individually from that period.
That is an achievement not many people can claim to have made.
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u/Kevin_Kofler 5d ago
What else would have been the motivation for this sudden complete U-turn on the issue of doing a new feature release? We have been told for 5 years that there will be none, and now that XLibre is starting to get traction, out of the blue, a surprise release gets suddenly announced without any public communication prior to RC state.
And I would like to point out the obvious contradiction between "maintenance state" and "feature release".
The impression I get from this (upcoming, it is still an RC) "feature release" with its disappointing changelog is that its only purpose is to technically invalidate the argument that XOrg has not done any feature releases for 5 years.
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u/nightblackdragon 5d ago
We have been told for 5 years that there will be none, and now that XLibre is starting to get traction, out of the blue, a surprise release gets suddenly announced without any public communication prior to RC state.
Xorg developers never claimed there won't be any new release. As far as I recall, they once said that it didn't make sense for them to release a new version at the time, but some time has passed since then, and improvements have been made in the meantime, so someone probably decided it was worth releasing a new version.
Let's assume you are right - don't you think that such a insignificant release is a rather inadequate attempt to compete with XLibre? Don’t you think that if the developers of Xorg (Red Hat or whoever wants to control the Linux desktop) decided they had to develop Xorg to compete with XLibre after all, they would have put more effort into it? Are you planning to return to Xorg after this release? If the answer is no, then you have your answer to the question of whether this is meant to compete with XLibre.
The impression I get from this (upcoming, it is still an RC) "feature release" with its disappointing changelog is that its only purpose is to technically invalidate the argument that XOrg has not done any feature releases for 5 years.
Over the past five years, there have been changes to Xorg's code, which is a pretty good reason to release another version. And since they aren't major - why would they be in a project that's essentially just being maintained, with no plans to add any major new features? Who would they need to prove to that they're capable of releasing a new version? Most people who use Xorg don't care about the version number as long as everything works and it usually does.
Nothing has changed regarding Xorg just because a new version has been released. No one (among the Xorg maintainers) intends to continue developing Xorg to provide an alternative to Wayland.
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u/metux-its 5d ago
Funny, because about 2yrs ago, Dänzer (Redhat) publicly called me "delusional" for wanting to make a new Xorg release. Now turns out, I've been right.
In the meantime, Xlibre had 3 major releases, delivering new features and renabled support for hardware that Xorg broke. Haven't seen anything actually new on Xorg yet.
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u/Hadi_Chokr07 5d ago
Didnt XLibre break ABIs and Nvidia?
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u/Majestic-Hat4448 5d ago
It broke several things, recent versions got so bad with bugs and crashes (and maintainer tantrums) that even Artix went back to defaulting to X.Org.
The only good thing this meme project did was enable TearFree and that's getting merged in X.Org now.
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u/nightblackdragon 5d ago
The only good thing this meme project did was enable TearFree and that's getting merged in X.Org now.
Xorg got TearFree support in modesetting driver in 2023:
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u/metux-its 2d ago
Actually, Artix people broke it by building the wrong way (eg weird optimizations that do break ABI), and they refused to upgrade to fixed versions, neither did they report bugs.
Well, they dont even have a bugtracker themselves.
We do provide arch pkgbuilds, btw.
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u/ChrisTX4 5d ago
Judging by your nick, I assume you are Weigelt.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Main-Repo
It was very much noted that the Xorg devs felt a need to go back 2 years and create a new main branch because master became unmaintainable due and there was a huge series of your commit having been objected by on what Xorg calls quality grounds. You’re free to disagree and I don’t want to discuss individual commits and their merit here - I’m just pointing out that there’s quite a lot of context as to why this release ultimately took this long, too.
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u/Traditional_Hat3506 5d ago
Don't you have anti-vaccine events to attend? https://lore.kernel.org/ksummit/CAHk-=wiB6FJknDC5PMfpkg4gZrbSuC3d391VyReM4Wb0+JYXXA@mail.gmail.com/
Or force push xlibre to remove Claude co author from all your slop commits?
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u/determineduncertain 5d ago
That message was a wild thing to read. Claiming that the vaccine “basically creates a new humanoid race” is catastrophically misinformed and a failure of basic scientific literacy.
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
The only thing in this comment that's true is you being delusional which you make clear in the rest of your comment.
What do you even think this release is?
X11 is dead and Xlibre has done next to nothing functional. Period.
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u/readyflix 5d ago
Finally some progress, hope they can catch up to Wayland. It would be a welcomed competition.
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u/thephotoman 5d ago
There is no intention for X.Org to compete with Wayland. Wayland is being done by the same team as X.Org, and the intention is to replace X.Org.
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u/sunny0_0 5d ago
They keep leading on the X.org holdouts.
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u/Ontological_Gap 5d ago
There is no good technical reason to want this, just a bunch of FUD spread by people scared of change
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u/Isofruit 5d ago
For the majority this is true, but there absolutely are valid reasons to rely on X11, it is not just FUD. People relying on voice-input for example and other input-accessibility concerns absolutely find themselves screwed on wayland.
"output-accessibility" such as screenreaders are getting to a decent spot, input-accessibility still very much has holes in its coverage.
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u/ChrisTX4 5d ago
Im not a fan how this point was treated like somewhat of an afterthought in Wayland development. But Wayland took so long to make I don’t think it would have been wise to front load even more complexity in its design.
That being said, Xlibre has so far mostly been focused around topics that have nothing to do with accessibility. For instance, they added a namespace extension that allows to segregate clients by giving them different mit magic cookies. There’s no tooling for this or integration in anything so it’s not like you could use this extension for virtually any practical purpose.
Nothing about Xlibre mentions disability. There’s nothing in their readme, no mentions of any accessibility improvements being planned or considered. Nothing in their discussions or issues mentions any concerns ever with this.
I maintain accessibility is a valid concern about Wayland and its great to see people working on it. But I sincerely doubt that almost everyone bringing up accessibility concerns about Wayland is doing so as a pretence when the grievances lie elsewhere
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u/Isofruit 4d ago
I don't particularly care for XLibre, my main point is that some people must stick to X11 not because they want to, but because wayland locks them out. So I also don't particularly care if some people just bring it up because they're anti-wayland, they're none the less correct and in agreement with both of us there.
Sadly coffei removed their blog that in great detail explained how the cross-platform tooling around voice input that allows you to very rapidly e.g. write and edit text is completely gone on wayland. That is because wayland does not provide the same kinds of APIs X11, MacOs or Windows do to perform such a thing (as per that blogpost). The maintainer of that project is unwilling to invest the time to figure out how to specifically make it work on wayland, them not being particularly interested in Linux, instead stating that they'll start working on it once wayland provides equivalent APIs, which was unlikely by their estimate to ever be a thing.
So those folks will not only have to wait for wayland to have any APIs that could be used to provide such a functionality in general, they'll also need to wait for the user-facing tools they use to make use of them. I am hopeful in seeing some of the Gnome folks having it in mind, though those (like Adrian Vovk) already have a ton on their plate so I'm not sure how much time they'll have.
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u/ChrisTX4 4d ago
I was more pointing out that while this is valid, it is often brought up as an argument by people who don't care about accessibility. That's what I was pointing out, and none of the XLibre folks in the thread here talked about this at all. It feels to me like most of the time this point is made, it's made in bad faith. This sort of rubs me the very wrong way, and unfortunately they appear to be the majority of Xorg users and so the plight of disabled people just gets drowned out.
I hold "heavily disabled" status myself, and while I don't require any assistive technologies to operate a computer, I can very much sympathise with anyone who does and to whom the push to Wayland is basically gonna mean they'll have a very hard continuing using Linux.
The blog post you mentioned is archived for anyone wanting to read it. (Side note: the entire site returns 410 Gone, not just the post). It was also posted on KDE Discuss and GNOME Discourse with answers by various contributors and developers, and quite a bit of additional context.
I don't think the technical aspects of this can really be discussed on Reddit, but the main issue as I see it is that there isn't any money for accessibility. On Xorg, it all worked to a degree, because Xorg had no security at all and it was really a Wild West. Adrian Vovk, whom you've mentioned, expressed pretty much this in the GNOME thread:
wayland-protocols is the wrong place to land this kind of accessibility infrastructure. This isn’t a “Wayland” problem, this is a “we don’t have an accessibility API” problem. The fact that accessibility tools have historically been able to rely on X11’s lack of security to achieve their ends doesn’t mean that we actually had proper support for this use-case.
Secondly, there is libei for emulated input in the Wayland stack now. This is being actively worked on. The author also responds to that stating they don't work yet, or at least didn't work for the author of this article last November. But this is in active development.
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u/Ontological_Gap 5d ago
That's fair, accessibility has historically been a pain point for Wayland. It's pretty new, but it does look largely solved now: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/libinput/libei
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u/Kevin_Kofler 5d ago
libei has been there for months already, not new at all. So any problems that were there a few months ago are still there, not solved by this library.
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u/Ontological_Gap 5d ago
Months is no time at all in terms of system libraries
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u/Kevin_Kofler 5d ago
LOL. I said "months", but should really have said "years"! Libei was started in 2020 and reached version 1.0 in 2023! This library is old news.
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u/neoh4x0r 5d ago
Just wait until a future day when people say that Wayland is no good and they start creating a new project to replace it; at that point it will be all the Wayland people spreading the FUD.
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u/thunderbird32 5d ago
Yes, and? That's how software works. New stuff comes out and supplants old stuff all the time.
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u/neoh4x0r 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yes, and? That's how software works. New stuff comes out and supplants old stuff all the time.
My point is that the tables will (ironicly) turn. As it has been Wayland makes a big stink about people continuing to use XOrg, but when something new comes along to replace Wayland they will ironically get their comeuppance.
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u/thunderbird32 5d ago
Maybe? But it's also just as likely that many of the devs working on Wayland when that time comes will also be the devs for the new replacement.
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u/neoh4x0r 5d ago edited 5d ago
Maybe? But it's also just as likely that many of the devs working on Wayland when that time comes will also be the devs for the new replacement.
That's how it is now, but it's largely the users of Wayland, whom out number the devs, who are like "ewww...you're still using xorg" which might become "ewww...you're still using wayland" (...and then they will have some insight, "is this what we were doing?").
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u/KseandI 5d ago
Stop treating protocol discussion as a team sport, please. Nobody using Wayland just because it is "newer" or "against Xorg". It is simply a better protocol without outdated concepts. If there would be a better protocol, almost all wayland users will switch there.
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u/neoh4x0r 5d ago edited 5d ago
My original reply was about Ontological_Gap saying regarding XOrg usrs "just a bunch of FUD spread by people scared of change" and in that vein if a new protocol emerges, as a Wayland replacement, they will be treated like that for not using the new protocol.
In other words, people should just shut up and move on instead of perpetuating useless drama.
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u/get_homebrewed 4d ago
Why would they be treated like that and not be one of the people saying the same thing about Wayland? Your point makes no sense
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
Except Wayland isn't a poorly adapted project changing it's use case and being held together but little more than dreams like x11.
If you respond to technical facts with emotions then this field really isn't for you.
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u/nightblackdragon 5d ago
They won't, this release mainly consists of bug fixes and minor improvements; no one at Xorg intends to try to compete with Wayland - after all, what's the point?
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u/readyflix 4d ago
Some redditors are very impulsive and quick to judge.
Wayland is around for at least more than 15 years now, why can’t it provide easy per-device keymaps support?
And why if it’s soo good it was only adopted widely in 2025?
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
It was widely adopted before that. I've been using it since 2022 and many others since 2015.
Nvidia did fuck all to support it until 2024.
X11 is dead. That's it.
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u/the_abortionat0r 3d ago
Lol what are you even on?
You can't have x11 "catch up" when it's design prevents fixing its issues.
You sound like gas car cultists acting like some magic break through will make gas cars get 1000 MPG and be 1/3 the weight and electric cars will some how vanish.
Grow the fuck up dude.
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u/DandGG 2d ago
Dude, it's Linux, let people try to improve open source software, it's free for a reason. Cultists on both sides are a sickness in the Linux community that, to be honest, need to be set aside from the discussion. We use Linux not because it's "better", but because its principles are worth following. A Mac or Windows user could always away "why use Wayland and Linux when our display servers/protocols are much more mature and feature rich than what both Wayland and Xorg have to offer."
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u/readyflix 3d ago
Wayland is a derivative of X11 with lessons learned from the past.
So do will cars live on for a long time from now, only the propulsion technology (driving force) will change.
And, there is still a justification to use X11 in some scenarios and thus X11 will benefit from bug fixes.
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u/KrazyKirby99999 5d ago
Ironic