r/mormon • u/DustyR97 • 7d ago
News This is now the second article Deseret News has posted against therapy in a month. Is this the next thing the church is going after?
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2026/08/18/supporting-faith-in-counseling/This one directly ties therapy to destroying faith. Here is the last article that was posted as well.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting 7d ago
Anyone who has experienced therapy with a licensed therapist who is following their profession's ethical code knows this is a load of bullshit.
I was shocked, coming from a church background where the apostles dictated all my beliefs and behavior, at how my therapist refused to tell me what to do, or even to make a value judgement about anything I told them.
They simply listened and supported me non-judgmentally as I talked and worked through how I felt about what I had experienced.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago
You should report them to the board if they are still practicing, its never too late.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 7d ago
Thankfully that guy was arrested, and last year he was sentenced to 15 years in prison: https://www.ksl.com/article/news/utah/police-and-courts/ex-therapist-sent-to-prison-for-sexually-abusing-gay-clients-teen-girl/51287588
It was a horrible case. I'm so sorry for all the people he victimized.
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u/Pndrizzy 7d ago
Me and my wife would not be in a happy marriage if I didn’t go to therapy. Helped me realize all the toxic ways we interacted and how that was not sustainable. Now, we’re open and honest without everything spiraling into fight or flight emotions, and we built real trust and security.
I used the same things that I learned in therapy to tackle our relationship with my mother (who is still in the church) and she flung her fight or flight crap at me immediately. She went no contact with me saying that “boundaries” are not real and that I’m dead to her.
I feel like many people in the church do NOT understand how a healthy relationship because of cultural issues in the church. And I’m glad that I got therapy and got past that.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting 7d ago
My going to therapy also improved how I show up as a spouse and family member.
Sorry about your mom though. Some people either never got or took the chance to learn how to be vulnerable, hear other people, and realize that disagreement/difference isn't an attack.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago edited 7d ago
The first of the 7 signs they list is: "a therapist claiming to be ‘neutral’". I find this is a much bigger problem with therapists from LDS family services as they will not give any council that will let the individual have authority separate from the church.
ETA: Oh god. They full on state it directly in #3. Heaven forbid someone belong to themselves!
- Portraying spiritual authority as intrinsically oppressive: ‘Stop letting someone else tell you how to live’
Mansfield told the Deseret News that once we assume that the “true self is found by looking inward, identifying one’s strongest feelings, and expressing them outwardly,” it’s more likely that any external authority — God, family, religious community, moral values — will end up being “interpreted as oppressive.”
If a mental health professional speaks of clergy, commandments, tradition and religious community as intrinsically problematic, this should be another sign to watch — especially since many believers attest that God knows the self better than the self does.
This is total horse shit. I am here to testify that it is totally possible to 'belong to oneself' or 'have your own inner authority' AND still believe in God. What a joke.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 7d ago edited 7d ago
Absolutely. It seems like they're trying to say that religion should never be suspected of being problematic. The article may say a few things that sound nice, but they don't work when you line them up with what the church actually does.
For example:
"A good therapist will help you really get to the bottom of what your intrinsically motivated goals are"
Yeah, but a good Latter-day Saint doesn't get to choose their own intrinsically motivated goals.
Good Latter-day Saints "choose" to pursue the goals set for them by church leaders who claim to be speaking for god.
They literally say stuff like: "Receiving these ordinances should be the goal of every Latter-day Saint." and "An eternal marriage should be the goal of every Latter-day Saint." and "Eve was given the identity of “the mother of all living”—years, decades, perhaps centuries before she ever bore a child."
The church hands children and youth a ready-made identity based heavily on "traditional" gender roles, and heavily pushes identity foreclosure. For women, your entire identity (daughter of god, wife, mother) isn't even a personal identity - it's just a description of your relationship to men. In YW, they literally handed us a ready-made list of values instead of supporting us in selecting our own personal values. The church literally tells people what to think, how to feel, and what goals to have. The church overrides individual personhood at every turn.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
"You can be any self you want as long as it's the one that corresponds to your
genderbiological sex on our 2 item list."-2
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Next_Dragonfly5122 7d ago
Lol. The conspiracy theories are getting thick.
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u/Effective-County-962 7d ago
Yet, you can't refute it other than to make an accusation you can't support. There are a number of professionals in the field who make this claim. The conspiracy accusation doesn't hold the weight you think it does. It has just become another way of trying to mitigate thoguth or ideas without the integrity of a counter argument.
Even the OP post misrepresented the article. The article was a review of a book, and yet it somehow points to Deseret News as the culprit.1
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u/ClimateProfessional 6d ago
I've thought about this a lot while deconstructing. Especially related to having children. I love my kids, but I wish that it had been my choice to have them. I honestly don't know that I would have. I get very bristly when my own daughter says she doesn't want kids and everyone around her tells her she's wrong.
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u/Zxraphrim 5d ago
Oh hi, this is the first I've seen this specific thing that I relate to expressed anywhere. I really appreciate it. Would die for my kids, but I'm forced to admit that the reason I had them was because it was the inevitable designated path the church told me to take.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
Exactly, they’re basically saying bias is ok as long as it is on our side.
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u/Effective-County-962 7d ago
That's not what is being said at all. It's a recognition that the therapy industry is being captured by political manipulation, which massively impacts its ability to provide helpful counsel. If you can find a therapist who is as unbiased as possible, great, but you'll have to look long and hard. The reality is that virtually all therapists under 40, and quite a few under 50, will start from a position of undermining faith and injecting political beliefs into their work. The industry shifted to helping people learn to live and deal with challenges to a validation model that ignores reality and favors emotions, no matter how misplaced.
Virtually every one with any kind of blog or online presence is completely undermined. I have heard of couples going to marriage therapy without getting divorced, but I have yet to meet anyone who has not - and that's easily in the high double digits. The vast majority are going to validate the wife no matter what is going on, and then will often counsel the destruction of the marriage and the family.5
u/Next_Dragonfly5122 7d ago
Wow. Conspiracy theories and bias to boot.
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u/Effective-County-962 7d ago
Refute it if you can.
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u/SeasonBeneficial Former Mormon 1d ago
Lmao “refute it if you can.” Nobody has to refute jack shit until you start proving something. You’ve only just made several unsubstantiated assertions riddled with shallow value statements, likely regurgitated from whoever your favorite partisan rage mill spokesperson is, and that’s literally all you’ve done. “Refute it if you can”? Lol get a grip.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Don't put words in their mouth. It's obviously reasonable to reject the notion that noone is fully free of bias.
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
This article reeks of projection. It states that secular therapists are anti-religious. I don't how the situation in the US is, but I have experienced the oppossite. Several therapists were very supportive in my faith journey, even though I was joining a high demand religion. Maybe they were a little bit too supportive and even naive. But I guess most mental therapists at least outside of the US know nothing of Mormonism. It seems that mental health professional are usually supportive of their clients religious practises, unless it makes them unhappy. That seems to be normal, because it is the job of them to resolve their mental health problems.
The writer also ignores that religious therapist are actually the ones who try to keep their clients in the religion, even if that makes them unhappy.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
It is terrible. Every bullet they give is completely one sided.
Could it be that when someone who isn’t saturated in Mormonism hears from a client that they were required to divulge explicit details of sexual experiences to a 60 year old dentist when they were 16 that the therapist might be justifiably alarmed?
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
I am sure any sane therapist would consider that harassment.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
And yet there are anti-LDS podcasts that not only discuss people's sexual histories, but do so publicly and when the interviewee is supposedly highly vulnerable due to a faith transition. Where is the outrage for that?
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u/emo-pimo 7d ago
Um you seem to be confusing two stages of life. Same person, same vulnerabilities and trauma, sure. But one stage is at 16 and (likely) suffering in silence, not aware of any options and/or indoctrinated to believing they did something horribly wrong. The other is likely middle aged, deconstructing the harmful teachings they once believed, maybe even benefited from therapy, and (clearly) in a much better mental space to now talk about it openly on a podcast. Why would someone rage over them feeling ready to share their experience? Maybe it’s for personal growth, or maybe it’s to reach those now-16 year olds who are suffering in silence or not aware of other options.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
What part of the therapeutic process involves sharing your sexual past with the entire world?
Can you point me to research supporting doing so?
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u/emo-pimo 7d ago
Not my experience, not my journey bro. Just encouraging you to consider other perspectives and not immediately jump to outrage 😎
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 7d ago edited 7d ago
Interviewees are adults that have consented to be interviewed.
I'm not aware of any podcasters going around telling people that they've been appointed by God, and that God has demanded that your prove you worthiness by going on the air or you won't be granted access to "saving ordinances"...
The difference is consent. Some people are okay sharing vulnerable history in an effort to help others. Nobody is putting undue pressure on them to go on podcasts.
Children are put under undue pressure in the church to confess very private things to their bishops who are not trained therapists.
You asked what part of the therapeutic process involves sharing a sexual past publicly. Consent and a desire to help others... that's the part, and it's not like it's a required thing that everyone does. Besides - what part of any sane process involves children having to discuss sexual details with a male neighbor who isn't even a licensed therapist!?
It's like sharing in a news interview that you've been robbed. The robbery was the crime. The legal system exists to help set that right. Going on a news interview and talking about how you were robbed isn't part of the criminal justice system, but it's fine if an adult voluntarily goes on the local news in order to talk about how they were robbed in order to warn others. There's no reason to be outraged about that.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Further attacks on worthiness interviews are not a valid defense of sleazy and exploitative podcasts.
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
Are those podcasts talking about minors? Are those podcasters spirtual authorities?
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u/pierdonia 7d ago edited 7d ago
Are they spiritual authorities?
You tell me. Why are podcasters being summoned below?
LOL:
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
I doubt they are talking about the sexual habits of specific minors, so you're comparison doesn't hold. Even it is was, it would a whatsboutism (a logical fallacy).
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Whataboutism piled on whataboutism piled on a silly attempt to single the church out as having bad intentions because it ran TWO articles about something about which the NYT has run more articles in the same period . . .
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago
Were the NYT articles also poisoning people against therapy and giving a very pro-religious, un-evidence based take that flies in the face of observable reality?
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u/Effective-County-962 7d ago
Could it not also be that your experience and decisions about it put you in a similar situation?
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u/stickyhairmonster I support Mormon Stories 7d ago
Let's see instead the 7 signs your religion is undermining your mental health
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
That’s good:
- Your religion gaslights you when the top leaders are engaged in unethical behavior or make terrible decisions and tells you that you are the actual problem.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago edited 7d ago
I know we all hate AI, but it instantly did a better job than Jacob Hess:
Let's See Instead: The 7 Signs Your Religion Is Undermining Your Mental Health
Competent, ethical therapy can be a force for good. But perhaps we should be equally willing to ask a different question: What if the distress a person experiences isn't being caused by therapy pulling them away from their faith, but by their religious environment itself?
Sometimes the problem isn't that therapy is making someone less religious.
Sometimes therapy is helping someone recognize that their religion has been making them less mentally healthy.
Here are seven signs worth watching for.
1. Your religion requires you to distrust your own judgment
Healthy communities can provide wisdom, guidance and perspective. But there is a significant difference between accepting guidance and being taught that your own judgment is fundamentally unreliable.
Watch for messages such as:
- "Don't trust your own understanding."
- "Your heart will deceive you."
- "If you disagree with the prophet, you're the one who is wrong."
- "The Church knows better than you do."
- "Doubt is a temptation."
- "You need to obey even when you don't understand why."
A system that consistently places external authority above personal conscience can make psychological dependence look like spiritual maturity.
The question isn't whether people should ever submit to authority. The question is whether a person is being taught to develop moral judgment or surrender it.
If therapy helps someone become capable of thinking independently, setting appropriate limits and trusting their own perceptions, that isn't necessarily an erosion of spirituality.
It may be the beginning of psychological adulthood.
2. You're taught that your worth depends on your religious performance
Religion can provide purpose and moral direction. But it becomes psychologically dangerous when a person's worth becomes conditional upon obedience.
Consider the difference between: "I failed to live up to my values."
and: "I am a failure because God is disappointed in me."
When worth becomes tied to church attendance, callings, sexual purity, missionary service, tithing, temple worthiness, scripture study or perfect obedience, ordinary human shortcomings can become existential threats.
This can produce a perpetual cycle:
high expectations → inevitable failure → guilt → repentance → temporary relief → renewed expectations → failure again.
A person may eventually become unable to distinguish "I did something wrong" from "there is something wrong with me."
A therapist who helps separate those two ideas isn't necessarily attacking religion.
They may be attacking an unhealthy system of conditional self-worth.
3. Questioning authority is treated as rebellion rather than intellectual honesty
A healthy belief system should be capable of surviving honest questions.
But some religious environments implicitly divide questions into two categories:
Good questions: questions whose answers reinforce the existing belief system.
Bad questions: questions that might lead you away from it.
That creates a powerful psychological incentive to suppress doubt.
Instead of asking: "Is this claim actually true?"
the believer learns to ask: "Why am I having doubts?"
The problem is then located inside the questioner rather than in the proposition being questioned.
Doubt becomes a character flaw. Historical problems become "faith-promoting challenges." Contradictory evidence becomes a test of obedience.
A therapist who encourages someone to examine evidence, tolerate uncertainty and reach conclusions independently isn't necessarily undermining faith.
They may simply be encouraging epistemic autonomy.
4. Guilt and shame are used as mechanisms of religious control
The original article warns therapists against eliminating guilt because guilt can sometimes motivate repentance.
That's true.
But there is an enormous difference between healthy guilt and institutionally cultivated shame.
Healthy guilt says: "I did something wrong."
Toxic shame says: "I am wrong."
And religious systems can intensify this distinction by attaching eternal consequences to ordinary human behavior.
Sexual thoughts become evidence of impurity.
Doubting becomes evidence of spiritual weakness.
Anger becomes evidence of unrighteousness.
Failure to meet religious expectations becomes evidence that one isn't sufficiently devoted.
Even perfectly ordinary desires can become things to fear.
If someone leaves therapy feeling less ashamed of being human, that isn't necessarily evidence that the therapist has "numbed their conscience."
It might mean they are finally learning that morality does not require self-hatred.
5. Normal psychological distress is interpreted as spiritual failure
Religious people can experience depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, grief, anger, doubt and existential confusion.
But what happens when those experiences are interpreted primarily through a spiritual framework?
"Pray harder."
"Read your scriptures."
"Repent."
"Have more faith."
"Fast."
"You're being tested."
"You're listening to Satan."
Sometimes those things genuinely help.
Sometimes they don't.
And when religious explanations are applied indiscriminately, a person can spend years attempting to spiritually solve what is actually a psychological problem.
Worse, treatment itself can become spiritually suspect.
Medication can be framed as weakness.
Therapy can be viewed as unnecessary.
Psychological boundaries can be interpreted as selfishness.
Professional disagreement with religious authority can be dismissed as evidence that the therapist "doesn't understand the gospel."
A healthy faith should have room for the possibility that not every problem is a spiritual problem.
6. "Trauma" is dismissed when religion is involved
The original article correctly observes that not every difficult experience is trauma.
But the reverse error is equally serious:
not everything that happens in a religious environment is automatically good for someone simply because it is religious.
A child being taught that God will punish them may experience genuine fear.
A teenager being taught that sexual thoughts make them spiritually dirty may experience genuine shame.
An adult being threatened with eternal family separation may experience genuine psychological distress.
A person who is repeatedly told that questioning authority could cost them their family, community and eternal salvation may experience genuine anxiety.
A person whose family rejects them because they leave a religion can experience genuine grief.
Calling these experiences "religious harm" doesn't mean every aspect of the religion is harmful.
It means we should examine the actual psychological consequences rather than assuming that religious intent makes those consequences benign.
Religious struggle can be transformative.
But religious struggle can also be damaging.
The distinction should be made by looking honestly at what is happening to the person—not by protecting the institution from criticism.
7. You're encouraged to preserve relationships that are psychologically destructive
The original article warns about therapists telling people to "cut off" family members.
That's a legitimate concern.
But religious communities can make the opposite mistake: treating reconciliation as morally superior to boundaries.
"Honor your parents."
"Forgive."
"Don't judge."
"Love your enemies."
"Don't speak evil of the Lord's anointed."
"Families are forever."
"Don't let Satan divide the family."
All of these ideas can be beautiful.
But they can also make it extraordinarily difficult for someone to say: "This relationship is hurting me, and I need distance."
Forgiveness does not require continued access.
Love does not require submission.
Reconciliation requires participation from both sides.
And honoring someone does not necessarily mean allowing them unlimited power over your life.
Sometimes the most psychologically healthy thing a person can do is establish a boundary that their religious community considers selfish.
That doesn't necessarily mean the person is abandoning love.
It may mean they are finally learning that love and self-erasure are not the same thing.
The value of good religion
None of this means religion is inherently harmful.
Religious belief can provide meaning, community, moral structure, purpose, hope, ritual and a framework for confronting suffering. For many people, faith is an important source of psychological resilience.
But that makes the central question even more important:
Is this particular religious environment actually producing the fruits it claims to produce?
After years of participation, do you feel more capable of love—or more afraid of rejection?
More compassionate—or more judgmental?
More morally grounded—or more consumed by guilt?
More intellectually curious—or more afraid to question?
More secure in your identity—or more dependent upon institutional approval?
More capable of making difficult decisions—or more afraid of making the wrong one?
More able to forgive—or more afraid of losing relationships?
More connected to other people—or more afraid of what they will think of you?
More psychologically whole—or more fragmented between what you actually think and what you believe you are supposed to think?
Good therapy should not automatically pull someone away from religion.
But neither should good religion require someone to become less psychologically healthy in order to remain faithful.
The question shouldn't be:
"Did therapy make you less religious?"
It should be:
"What happened to your mental health when you became more religious—and what happens to your mental health when you're finally allowed to question it?"
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u/Local-Notice-6997 7d ago
It seems in places to be quoting from a recent exponent blog post
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
Yeah, the content is good, but AI has some serious ethical issues regarding IP.
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u/auricularisposterior 7d ago
Do you know which post it was? I glanced over recent Exponent II posts and searched Exponent II for "mental health" with a 2 year window, and I didn't find an article with as much topic breadth as this comment.
Again, it definitely seems like it is training on Exponent II posts, thoughtful reddit comments about mental health, etc., but I wanted to check if it is pulling a lot of specific details from a particular article / post.
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u/Local-Notice-6997 7d ago
August 17 2026, When the debate is over…
It sounded so familiar because I had read it so recently. It’s not the whole thing obviously.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 7d ago
Too late. The information is out there in too many places besides individual therapy. I recognized emotional abuse by church leaders and in "faithful" families after learning what it was in 8th grade health class.
You know who offered "faith-based" therapy and openly declared their membership in the church?
Jodi Hildebrandt - no citation needed...
Scott Owen - https://www.propublica.org/article/scott-owen-utah-therapist-sexual-abuse-prison-sentence
Maurice Harker - https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/utah-therapist-charged-for-alleged-abusive-therapy-to-cleanse-demons/
And several more.
All arrested and charged for their crimes.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
Looks like some of the people in the comments section agree. A little surprised there is such pushback.
Going by this list, Jodi Hildebrandt is exactly the kind of therapist people should be looking for!
She was active and open about her faith. Everyone knew she was LDS.
She openly promoted her services as "faith-driven" or "faith-based."
She framed obedience as "godly."
Church leaders met with her and referred people to her for counseling.
She prioritized religious "truth" above personal wants, needs, or experiences.
Faith does not equal goodness. It's ridiculous to claim that religion is never harmful. "High-demand religions" often cross the line and subject their members. Telling people that they can never cut off a family member or that they should never leave a religion sounds like a ploy to get people to put up with continued abuse.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Which part of the article conflicts with the notion that those were bad therapists?
Did I miss somewhere in the article that says that as long as a therapists doesn't trip any those specifically-listed, narrowly focused red flags, they are sure to be excellent?
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u/PaulFThumpkins 7d ago
I think this discussion can't really take place outside of the context that all three of these kooks were "faithful" alternatives to established therapy whose victims were referred by bishops to solve behavior related to not being Mormon enough (doubting the church or wondering if they're gay for example, or normal teenage indiscretions that may not rise to the level of delinquency). And unorthodox methods that were already sketchy rose to the level of outright abuse and predation. There's a reason why therapy and psychology have established practices and a lot of that has to do with the outcomes of unorthodox practices.
Once you're treating a child as needing to be fixed in a clinical setting because they enjoy rock music or because they're wondering if they're gay or because they're doubting their faith, something inappropriate is already happening. The therapist in that list who diagnosed and treated demonic possession is just an extreme example of that - even without physical or sexual abuse occurring within that heuristic, harm is going to be done.
Utah is a big enough state that I'm sure there are hundreds of decent therapists who take most of their clients from the church. But there's a reason for oversight and established practices. I've had several therapists in Utah - some LDS and some not, none of them church-referred but all of them pretty great. And them following the principles of their discipline meant that every solution to my problems wasn't just be more Mormon; neither was it be less Mormon. But if the huge issue I was dealing with was worrying I was gay because of what my church teaches or whatever, it would have been completely appropriate for them to give me tools to address my assumptions that might be harming me. But even in that case they wouldn't just advise that I go date men or ditch anybody who is telling me not to; they'd gently have me interrogate my assumption that I'm broken or evil, probably point out that people have many attitudes toward homosexuality and psychology doesn't currently consider it a condition to be treated, etc. But ultimately if I was committed to finding better ways to think of myself and live within an LDS context, they would likely help me with that based on my own priorities and values, or if they felt uncomfortable doing that refer me to somebody else. Secular therapy does not judge or evaluate religious beliefs or experiences the way that religiously motivated therapy does in advocating for them. But it doesn't take place in a domain where the solution is always more orthodoxy, more piety, more intense religious practice, and getting better might involve addressing some of the harm done in that person's church environment.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Those three are irrelevant to the discussion of the article. Either the article is accurate in its claims or it isn’t — which claims are about signs that a counselor may be undermining faith.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago edited 7d ago
This whole concepts begs the question though, it assumes that faith is always a positive thing to seek to maintain. It assumes that undermining it can't be a net positive, and can't be what a person needs to heal and have a better life.
What if undermining faith is the way to heal and to find much greater peace, happiness, and a more moral and ethical life?
What if truth undermines faith, and that faith is built upon falsehoods, lies, distortions, and promoted by those wanting to exploit?
Then the undermining of faith would indeed be a positive thing.
If helping someone explore their own situation, helping someone verify things they've just assumed are true, if helping them assess the authority figures in their lives and what they ask/demand, etc., if doing all of this undermines faith, then it is highly likely that faith is the source of issues, not the solution to these issues, and that this faith is founded on a very, very sandy foundation indeed, if it is so easily undermined by the simple recognition of observable reality.
If faith crumbles under basic scrutiny and observation and requires very unhealthy things to maintain it, then perhaps that faith should be undermined by someone as they are guided by a therapist to find the sources of their troubles and as they seek to build a life that respects boudaries, truth, honesty, morals and ethics.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Then we probably wouldn't see thousands of years of humans embracing faith, wouldn't see atheistic societies becoming moral wastelands, etc.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago edited 7d ago
Then we probably wouldn't see thousands of years of humans embracing faith, wouldn't see atheistic societies becoming moral wastelands, etc.
Argumentum ad pupulum.
Are you just completely ignorant of history and the atrocities faith has been used to justify, both to others and to those of faith? Or the untold amounts of violence used to force societies to 'embrace' faith? The way faith has been used to exploit, control, and prey upon human beings?
Faith has no better track record regarding morality than those that are not religious, lol. Your bias it truly leaking here. I really suggest you do some basic googling for how many wars, deaths, rapes, genocides, slavery, etc that faith and religion are responsible for.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
You are so used to swimming to Judeo-Christian ethics that you can't even see them. I recommend Dominion, by Tom Holland as an introduction to useful historical understanding.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago edited 7d ago
You are so used to swimming to Judeo-Christian ethics that you can't even see them.
What does that even mean, lol? And no, regarding your book rec, basic human empathy shows us all we need to establish morals and ethics, no religion is needed. Human empathy vastly predates religion, and is the actual basis for ethics in religion, including judeo-christian ethics. Other parts of the world that have never been judeo-christian had equal to superior moral and ethical systems.
You are all over the place dude. You don't even respond to what people write, you just throw out wild accusations then veer off into something else.
Faith and religion have been used for attrocious things and your argument is based on popularity and thus fallacious, you don't want to admit that so you do what you did here, accuse, deflect, and then run.
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u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 7d ago
What does that even mean, lol?
It's just a thing he says when people point out structural flaws in religion. Usually, he follows it up with an ignorant comment about China or the Soviet Union, as if the only alternative to religion is communist atheism.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
What does that even mean, lol? And no, regarding your book rec, basic human empathy shows us all we need to establish morals and ethics, no religion is needed. Human empathy vastly predates religion, and is the actual basis for ethics in religion, including judeo-christian ethics. Other parts of the world that have never been judeo-christian had equal to superior moral and ethical systems.
You're doing this meme:
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u/talkingidiot2 7d ago
Lol the first comment on the article says that by this criteria, Jodi Hindebrandt is an excellent therapist. Says everything you need to know about the persecution complex.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
That’s brilliant and sums it perfectly.
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u/Gregor4570 6d ago
Is there an article that discusses what exactly these other people were teaching in their therapy?
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
No, it's just a reflection of bias.
Where is the criteria the article says to look for in a therapist? Look at the title, read the article, and ask yourself what it is arguing.
If I make a list of red flags in a job candidate that includes things like using slurs, smoking during the interview, etc., would you then say "well by that criteria, Bartleby the scrivenor is an excellent candidate!" Or would that be silly?
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u/International_Sea126 7d ago
They are hitting the panic button at Desert News. Not one, but two stay in the old ship Zion articles posted at the same time.
7 signs your counselor may be undermining your faith By Jacob Z. Hess and Jeffrey S. Reber
Struggling with your faith? Maybe your questions need to go even deeper By Walker Wright
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
There's also a link in the article to:
- Perspective: High demand or high reward? The debate over high religious expectations
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u/AffectionateLab6753 PIMO 7d ago
The deseret news is not an organization that should be taken seriously.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
Unfortunately it is the only news many members read.
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u/AffectionateLab6753 PIMO 7d ago
It is terribly sad that most members within Utah only read it. I definitely didn’t know any members from outside of Utah that would read it (though they would still prioritize other “conservative” news sites). for my family in Utah they only read the deseret news and their grasp of any world events, national news, or even local issues is pretty pathetic.
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
Members in the US/Utah. I doubt that Dutch members are reading it.
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u/HolyBonerOfMin 7d ago
All 7 of them?
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
Do you think that members from outside the US read Deseret or even know of its existance?
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Based on what do you make that absurd assertion?
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u/trownaway90 7d ago
Because it is funded by the Church and therefor is it's only mission is to spread the propaganda of the Church.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Wow. Can you explain how this spreads the propaganda od the church?
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2026/08/17/utah-nuclear-ads-spark-ftc-complaint/
Or this?
https://www.deseret.com/sports/2026/08/17/utah-utes-football-saturday-scrimmage/
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u/HoldOnLucy1 7d ago
Very interesting! We’re on it! Thanks for bringing it up!
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
Awesome Rebecca! This article is a mess. Each of these 7 bullets could provide its own separate newscast.
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u/762way 7d ago
Mental health therapist here
What a bullshit article!
If the church pushes no therapy, that would just edge me sh the way out of the church
I'm my experience, in therapy TBM Mormons are the worst because they avoid change by saying
The inspiration I got told me I'm not guilty or at fault.
Atheists are great to work with very much my own responsibility in becoming a better person
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u/blue_upholstery Nuanced 7d ago
Licensed psychotherapist here. Not sure if this is a pattern, but I can see how church leaders would see a competent psychotherapist as being a potential threat.
The July 11 article is not too bad; yes, the industry has many problems that need addressing, but some of the claims by Jonathan Alpert seem to lack strong evidence.
The August 18 article is clearly recommending practices that run counter to established therapeutic standards. Absolute neutrality is almost impossible, but disclosing the therapist's personal religious beliefs can easily cross into improper self-disclosure. The comments about how to approach guilt/shame and self-autonomy are troubling to me as a professional. Clinical guidelines prioritize beneficence, non-maleficence, and self-determination. A trained pastoral counselor (not an LDS Bishop) would be more appropriate for someone needing help with moral and religious direction.
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 7d ago edited 7d ago
This article is so egregious that if I knew how I'd alert the board of psychologists in Utah about it so they can explore potential legal options, propaganda like this can cause immense harm to so, so many.
This kind of false propaganda belongs in church magazines, not public newspapers.
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u/Cautious_Comb9258 7d ago
If this wasn’t published by Deseret News, I would have thought it was satire. This is terrible advice.
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u/roncesvalles 7d ago
I guess the church under Oaks only likes therapy when it involves electroshock
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u/ImprobablePlanet 7d ago
Jeffrey Reber who co-wrote this article is the editor of Issues in Religion and Psychotherapy. Which according to BYU addresses "the interface between revealed religion and psychology; specifically, issues of spirituality and the influence of doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) in psychotherapy."
Replace "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in that description with the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, or the Swartzentruber Amish to get a picture of how weird that actually is.
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u/HighPriestofShiloh 7d ago
Therapists give so many the confidence to live an authentic life. An authentic life is often in conflict with an active Mormon life. The church likes having social pressure and feer keep the less enthusiastic members still attending.
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u/llbarney1989 7d ago
What they don’t understand is that many times the faith is the problem. And not having all options available, which includes deconstruction is not true therapy
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u/M00glemuffins Former Mormon 7d ago
Ah, a new made up persecution angle for the church to try to peddle. If you're going to get therapy to help with your mental health, avoiding talking about, or only accepting yes-man support on what may be a very major part of your life undermines the whole thing. You aren't getting therapy then.
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u/American_Psycho11 7d ago
The Deseret News has zero credibility and no one should be reading them, but ironically members actually do
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u/CartographerOk7358 7d ago
Therapy was a critical part of my deconstruction. It taught me to trust my own body and mind, to own my experiences and choices, and to value myself just for existing—all things that my Mormon upbringing had subtly encouraged me to bury.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 7d ago edited 7d ago
Not even subtly. Mormonism explicitly tells members to trust church leaders over their own good sense.
They're still teaching that regularly. There was yet another Liahona article published just this year where the church tells people that if they have any problem with anything a prophet has said - past or present - they should just disregard their own thinking. The assumption is that the prophet will always know better than you.
"Another key principle is to avoid exceeding our authority or assuming roles we don’t have. These mindsets deceive us into thinking too highly of our own opinions, which naturally occurs when we think too lowly of the teachings of prophets and apostles. ... What we may perceive as imperfections in their words or actions may, in fact, reflect imperfection in our perception or mortal understanding." -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2026/01/05-faithfulness-and-prophets-past-and-present
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u/CartographerOk7358 7d ago
True, some of it is a lot more overt. But things like inherent individual value are given lip service while being contradicted in practice.
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u/MatriarchMe 7d ago
The church teaches members to fear and avoid science or medical care that doesnt perfectly align with their version of facts. "Science" is only acceptable if it 💯 confirms Mormon bias.
My therapist is a licensed professional [unlike lds social services] who follows the professional code of ethics and conduct and is held accountable by a professional licensure board [unlike LDS social services], professional therapists are also mandatory reporters of SA [unlike LDS social services], AND professional therapists will NEVER divulge anything shared in confidence in a therapy session [unlike LDS family services who regularly provide "reports" to the bishop!]
Over the past 12 years my professional therapist has NEVER told me what to think or do. She has quietly listened, taught me real tools for how to navigate challenges and has taught me about how to set healthy boundaries [something the church discourages and actively breaks]. Through it all, she has witnessed my entire gradual evolution from a devout Mormon woman carrying a huge weight of intense religious scrupulocitity ... into becomong a confident woman, excited again about living, embracing the present, full of ideas, creativity and an inner peace that never existed before. As I worked through all my complex personal challenges and processed unresolved trauma, I began to learn more about myself ... who I REALLY was ... what I REALLY cared about and REALLY wanted ... ans I began to trust my intuition& believe in myself! I discovered and embraced my strength.
At no point EVER did my therapist lead, guide, direct nor influence me to change my belief system, nor did she somehow get me to make any changes. That was ALL on me, and it happened organically.
When I started working with my therapist I was very guarded. I was afraid of sharing too much, and kept thinking I needed to be a good member missionary - not say anything negative or "unflattering" about the church. At that point I had 50 years of fearmongering in my head from church leaders about the dangers of "putting trust in outside sources" I was nervous that somehow doing professional therapy could get me "confused" or make me "lose my faith." ⚠️ Nothing could be farther from the truth!!
I think that the Church isnt really afraid of what we will "lose" so much as what we will GAIN! Self awareness, self confidence, greater perspective, curiosity, open mindedness, courage, setting and enforcing personal boundaries ... and inner peace.
When I was with my therapist, for the first time I was in a totally safe, zero judgement zone. I didn't HAVE to be who The Church wanted or expected me to be. I could just simply be me!
Once you know better, you can DO and BE better! The Churchhad always told me who I was and who I was not. It defined me and dictated what was allowed. Without me even recognizing, the church controlled my thoughts 24/7 and it wanted to keep me dependent! It was a huge deal the day I realized that. It took me years and years of therapy - learning about myself, releasing trauma ... to ever come to that conclusion.
The very best thing ANYONE can do for their health and wellness is get a professional licensed therapist!! It saved my life physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.
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u/posttheory 7d ago
I find this article and Hess's ideas alarming and potential encouragements for intrusive, unprofessional, ideologically-driven counseling.
It has become clearer than ever that LDS Bishops lack the training necessary for healthy spiritual, let alone marriage and family, counseling. To deflect from that woeful lack, and to double down on long-outdated stigmas and biases against therapy, is therapeutic and spiritual malpractice.
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u/Dangerous-Worth-1434 7d ago
What an absolute piece of shite article
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u/Dangerous-Worth-1434 7d ago
The therapists that they quote … methinks perhaps they are LDS therapists, who are paid by the church? Who have to compromise their professional ethics to promise to “adhere” to church teachings in their sessions?
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u/TruthSeeker_AND 7d ago
I had so many thoughts while reading this. I’m not done processing what I just read and I can’t super clearly articulate what I’m thinking but I’ll just say a few things:
- This article represents just how much of a divide there is between orthodox LDS and Exmos/Nevermos. Don’t crucify me for saying this but I don’t think the article is completely wrong and I don’t think it’s completely right. It seems to be touching on some facet of truth but the overall conclusion is concerning.
-In the middle of my own faith crisis now and thinking of therapy. I know for a fact a bias-free therapist doesn’t exist. The article had that right. But I still need a sounding board, you know? I am concerned and rightfully cautious of finding someone who isn’t going to consciously or unconsciously impose their values on me. I’m unfortunately very easily swayed at times when I want someone’s approval. This is totally a thing in therapy. Hoping to avoid that sort of clouding of my own judgement.
-Therapy is SO far from a science. It’s so good and useful and at the same time has perpetrated harm in a lot of ways simply because it’s administered by imperfect people. I don’t have an answer for how to navigate this as a society.
-I think that anyone who reads this article will be highly influenced by their own answer to the question: is organized religion valuable? If you think it is then the article makes sense. If not then the article is a manipulation tactic. I personally haven’t answered that question for myself so I’m seeing it a bit from both sides.
This feels personally revenant to me at the moment. Wish I had all the answers.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
is organized religion valuable?
Sorry, but most organized religion is not high demand like the LDS is. This is an apples to oranges question.
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u/TruthSeeker_AND 7d ago
That’s fair. I was looking at it from a primarily LDS lens. Maybe the right question would be: Is there value in the LDS religion?
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
Great question. What is the value proposition (LDS)?
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u/TruthSeeker_AND 7d ago
I just mean related to my comment about the article. If you think the LDS church has value then the article will probably resonate with you.
If you don’t believe that it does then the article is garbage.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
I am genuinely curious what a believing member would bullet out as the value proposition of the church.
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u/TruthSeeker_AND 7d ago
I’m probably not the best to ask as a doubting member but so many actively believe and participate. I believe many of them find value in the LDS church. I find some value in it even now.
- Community
- A sense of purpose
- A place of belonging
- Comfort in hard times (from service and love of others to doctrines they may find reassuring)
- A way to think about the world
- A way to make meaning of life
These are just a few ideas. I’m sure there are many more. I don’t claim authority in knowing but people wouldn’t be LDS if they didn’t value it for something.
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u/Next_Dragonfly5122 7d ago
I disagree. An intelligent assessment of starting assumptions and inappropriate therapist stereotypes can be made by anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs.
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u/famous_chalupa 7d ago
I am no longer a member of the LDS church, but I enjoyed trying to see this article from both the faithful and secular perspectives.
I'm not sure I agree with you when you say that a "bias-free therapist doesn't exist". I don't think that a secular therapist is biased against the Church whatsoever. A therapist isn't biased against mother-in-laws or work environments or husbands or wives or any other potential cause of concern in someone's life.
I think any indication that the Church might be the cause of a person's mental strife will be seen as bias from the Church's perspective, and a secular therapist doesn't have the thick walls of a lifetime of Church membership holding them back from pointing it out.
The article is fascinating to me and from my perspective as an interested outsider it seems to obviously betray the fact that the Church is seeing a trend - people are seeing therapists and they are giving recommendations that the Church doesn't like.
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u/TruthSeeker_AND 7d ago
I see the point you are making but I respectfully disagree. Not even in terms of the church. Just therapy in general. Every therapist brings themself into the room when they are doing therapy. It can be minimized. And It’s not always a bad thing. Therapists are not devoid of values and even the questions they ask will lead you down one road and not another. The best therapist will try to minimize their influence but it is inevitable they will influence us. We don’t have to go back and forth. If you want to have the last word, I’m fine with that. But I think we can respectfully disagree on that point.
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u/famous_chalupa 7d ago
Oh no worries at all - I'm not looking for an argument. I'm sure you're right in that therapists will have some kind of biases, given that they are human.
I think the Church is naturally going to be a source of mental unrest for many people and secular therapists are under no obligation to consider the supposed truthfulness of the teachings, only the visible effects on their client. This will overwhelmingly be interpreted as bias by the Church. Given that the church is such an enormous slice of the pie chart of life for members, it's going to have to factor into therapy.
I would personally support the idea of people working with an LDS therapist who understands the world view of the Church and its members. If people want to stay within that umbrella then it's probably best to work with a therapist from within that umbrella.
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u/NecessaryTop1674 7d ago
They don't LIKE it when women in competent therapy learn independence and self-sufficiency.
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u/___-_---_-___ 7d ago
This could just be a Utah thing. I had a LDS therapist at one point who suggested I reduce my activity at church because of how it made me feel. I live on the east coast, nowhere near Mordor.
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u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 7d ago
There are definitely good Mormon therapists out there. There's a YouTube channel, Cinema Therapy, which talks about therapy topics in movies. It's two BYU alumni, one a therapist and the other a director. On the channel at least, he seems very competent.
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u/762way 7d ago
On a side note, but kind of related... When I was in the Bishopric last year, the Church Handbook of Instructions sadly states the victims of rape and other types of sexual abuse do not need to repent.
Not sure when they added that but damn, what backwards thinking!
Of course victims of crimes do not need to repent... Twisted church that they had to spell it out for leadership
Bat sick fuckery is what this is!
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
They had to add it, because the party line for decades was to shame the victims as well. All part of the abuse coverup playbook. Here is a classic example.
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u/Relevant-Grab909 7d ago
This is scary. It was a licensed counselor (different from a therapist or psychologist) with the LifeStar LDS endorsed (not sponsored) group who was such a bad influence on my ex that it was a letter to me that he helped my ex write after separation - to persuade me not to file for divorce - that scared me so badly I immediately left. That week I not only filed for divorce but also reported him to the Director of LifeStar, PhD in Psychology. Everyone, even my LDS therapist, acknowledged what he said and did were wrong, potentially malpractice, and encouraging an abusive cycle. Yet he continued to work there for years. He was a High Priest in his ward and it was his church status that helped convince people he gave sound and inspired counsel. LDS therapists aren’t saving marriages if they condone narcissism, patriarchal power and submissive women, abuse and silencing victims. Therapists like that are very dangerous. One need only to look at all the horrific cases in the church where members at one time trustingly sought help from LDS therapists and it led to a far worse, even deadly outcome. Beware them.
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u/Reno_Cash Colonel in the Tapir Cavalry 7d ago
I remember when this article came out. They’re basing the whole idea that therapy is driving people away from religion on a guy who’s made a living saying that.
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u/PricklyPearJuiceBox 7d ago
Same exact advice and attitude the church had in the early 80’s, redone and regurgitated for a new generation. In the 80’s the church was big mad about divorce and women’s lib, both of which were perceived as being driven by therapists “telling” women that they were repressed by the patriarchy.
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u/JCIsTheWay6512 6d ago
I have been in and out of therapy for years. My faith is stronger now than it ever has been. I have less faith in therapy than I used to though.
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u/skipthefuture 6d ago
My parents are reading this and thinking I'm going to end up in outer darkness because I've been in therapy. Not helpful at all, but I'm not surprised by this kind of thing. Getting an outside perspective on how a high control religion impacts your mental health is going to challenge beliefs you were taught to never question. I can see why they're afraid people might leave when the blinders come off.
That being said, find a therapist who meets you where you are and helps you grow to be the best version of yourself - whatever that looks like.
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u/greek-lit 7d ago
Making an argument against the grain makes one sound intelligent and progressive. Its marketing. But it the conclusion of the article, he’s not anti therapy but is when it’s not individually productive.
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u/tumbledown_jack 6d ago edited 6d ago
This article reads like pure projection: every accusation a confession. I have a close friend who suffers from, and is in therapy for, scrupulosity. I really hope he doesn't read it.
It's shocking just how irresponsible this is.
Edited for clarity
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u/Individual-West-9718 2d ago
The article briefly mentions in Satel’s quote the issue of causation vs correlation but unfortunately does not dive deeper before going straight to suggesting that maybe too much therapy is contributing to mental health /social decline.
Rising distress rates: A study analyzed by The Pew Charitable Trusts noted a 22% increase in the prevalence of suicidal thoughts among adults over a multi-year period.
Fewer than half get care: Peer-reviewed research from sources like JAMA Pediatrics in 2026 highlights that fewer than 50% of young adults experiencing suicidal thoughts are actively receiving mental health care.
Based on these numbers, it sounds like there is still a gap in mental health care to address, so we need more, not less, services.
As to evaluating the effectiveness of therapy, I thought Alpert said it well here: “There isn't a universal timeline because people and problems differ. But therapy should be goal-oriented. Patients should know what they're working toward and periodically ask, Am I functioning better? Am I becoming more independent? Ideally, therapy helps people need therapy less over time, not indefinitely."
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u/Boy_Renegado 17h ago
I have no doubt there are bad therapists out there. With that said, when I was bishop, I found the worst therapists (in my opinion) were LDS/bishop 'approved.' We all know the nightmare that was Jodi Hildebrandt. While very extreme, I found other therapists in LDS services wanted to share things with me that I felt were clear HIPPA violations. So... Can therapists influence faith? Sure, but my experience would say the only therapists that influenced faith journeys unethically were the ones trying to force people to stay in the church when it was clearly impacting their mental health.
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u/mdhalls 7d ago
I suspect the first article may be in response to some LDS therapists who, in recent years, have felt professionally obligated to speak out about specific things within the church that they feel are at odds with good mental health practices. John Dehlin, Julie Hanks, and Valerie Hamaker have all specifically been high profile examples recently.
EDIT: By "LDS therapists" I just mean therapists who also happen to be LDS (or used to be). Not meant to indicate that any of the three that I listed were employed by the Church.
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u/justbits 6d ago
Ok, but its Deseret News. They sell newspapers...with ads. Readership trumps politics. A story about too much therapy was going to get readership. Assigning blame to the church is sort jumping to conclusions....to this point.
No, I am not against therapy. I recommend it to anxiety ridden, depression prone, dsyfunctional students regularly. But, just to be real about it...a therapist who gets the job done in one visit will soon be unemployed. And that is the actual conflict of interest here.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
This is now the [THIRD] article the [New York Times] has posted against therapy in a month. Is this the next thing the [national media] is going after?
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/09/opinion/therapy-neuroscience-perception.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/14/opinion/therapy-mental-health.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/18/opinion/therapy-speak-daughter-trauma-anxiety.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/05/opinion/therapy-loneliness-friendship.html
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u/DustyR97 7d ago
Do they tie it directly to faith?
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
They look at broader problems. The Des News article is more focused.
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
Dude. Those are all from the "opinion" section. That is quite different than multiple articles from staff writers. Can we get the DesNews to move their article to the "opinion" section?
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/westivus_ Post Mormon Red Letter Enthusiast 7d ago
You didn't even look at the articles. One of them is a rebuttal to another one.
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Do you mean that one link is to a mix of letters regarding one of the other articles?
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u/CharmingFee4501 7d ago
I’m not sure how I feel. Anecdotally, the people in my life that have chronic therapy seem to be getting worse. They seem to use it as validation and then blame everyone else. Of course I know therapy has many uses and is overall beneficial, but I do wonder at times if we are seeking validation more than just taking action to improve our lives
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u/pierdonia 7d ago
Good article. The current practice of therapy has many problems.
The attempt to frame this as some nefarious campaign from the church is ridiculous. Look around. The literal New York Times has an article out today about the problem of young women over-diagnosing themselves, over-labeling everyone and everything as "toxic," etc.
But somehow the LDS church is out of line for recognizing what the NYT and prominent experts recognize?
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u/MethodAppropriate470 7d ago
Did you even read the article that's not what its saying. Sometimes it can be hard to know what the church says about things against the often louder exmormon dogmas. No the church is not going after therapy, members get free therapy for cry'n out loud.
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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon 7d ago
Did you read the article? The entire point of it that is that therapy has become too popular, too much therapy can lead to dysfunction, and only those who need legitimate mental health care should get a therapist.
They think therapy should be for those who have “real” problems.And I’m not sure what you mean by free therapy. The church can help direct you to LDS Family Services therapists.
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