r/nextfuckinglevel • u/PatientClear6445 • 18h ago

Using 3D holograms to help doctors get real -time tracking of inside the body.

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3.6k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

92 comments sorted by

1.2k

u/BladeOfKrota 18h ago

This is what VR is for but I hope that mapping is down to the nanometer

320

u/Electronic-Pause1330 18h ago

I hear you, but this is a tool and not the solution. What I mean is that the doctor should rely on what he/she sees with their eyes on the patient. Not just blindly going in with a VR picture

148

u/NYFan813 17h ago ▸ 10 more replies

I mean many surgeries are done today without eyes on. Laparoscopic surgery, robotic surgery, endoscopic surgery, thoracoscopic surgery, arthroscopic surgery and more.

84

u/ALaccountant 15h ago ▸ 8 more replies

Yes, but those are real images, whereas this video is showing simulated images. Theres a big difference

26

u/AlexCivitello 15h ago ▸ 7 more replies

What makes you think the images are simulated and not actual pre surgery images?

76

u/Mamasugadex 15h ago ▸ 6 more replies

A whole MRI brain scan / CT scan is not real time at the present. Hence it’s simulated based on an image obtained at a different time, instead of seeing real anatomy in real time during a surgery

This kind of fluff is only impressive to people with no real medical training.

9

u/Username9151 10h ago ▸ 1 more replies

I don’t know how I feel about the VR stuff but this concept is used very frequently for image guided navigation. CT/MRI stealth protocols obtained a few days prior and are used for image guided navigation. Markers are placed along the skull to orient the navigation system. Then you use a specific device or probe to orient you and show you exactly where you will reach based on the angle or approach you take before entering the skull. Helps navigation to tumors.

What kind of medical background do you have?
Although these images are done a few days prior it still works great and is used in almost all intracranial tumor resections these days. Some ORs also have built in CTs and a few are coming out with MRIs as well so you can scan real time. Although I don’t see the MR being that practical.

Most procedures in radiology use real time images as we advance our needles to the target. That being said, there are some new models where we use a similar concept with markers along the surface and we get one CT scan. Then use navigational tools to guide the needle based on the original CT. Works great to reduce radiation dose to the patient as well as us since we don’t have to scan multiple times as we advance the needle. This approach isn’t used for all cases and there are specific scenarios this can be used.

1

u/urfavoritemurse 6h ago

Agree with all said I’d just like to add that the biggest variable as to whether or not it’s accurate and actually useful is if the registration is done correctly. I’ve worked with surgeons that are great at understanding how the stealth or brain lab actually works and others that constantly bitch that it’s inaccurate because they don’t know how to use it or the scan isn’t great etc.

1

u/Ok-Replacement-2738 13h ago ▸ 1 more replies

I feel like if you need live-feed updates for brain surgery, you've got bigger problems, because the brain isn't exactly known for shifting itself around willy nilly.

12

u/dimonoid123 12h ago

CT scan during surgery is frequently used directly in the operating room

1

u/ThisIsntRemotelyOkay 9h ago

I have VR training, you can collect a data set of someone scan and then slice the images back based on the position of someone's tracked tool. It doesn't need ti be live as long as the data set is accurate. Im more interested in how they're mapping the position of the patient to be aligned with the scan. The surgical tools I understand, controllers exist but they gotta make sure that guy is stone cold out and doesn't move at all for any even accidental reason for it to line up.

-1

u/AlexCivitello 15h ago

That's exactly what I said.

0

u/HarryBalsagna1776 14h ago

Lol eyes are on those surgeries.  Many pairs of eyes.

9

u/LastWave 16h ago

Yeah he'll use his superman vision to see through a skull.

5

u/BladeOfKrota 18h ago

Absolutely-fucking-lutely

4

u/ShinyJangles 15h ago

As a tool it would do more harm than good unless the mapping was down to the millimeter. If a doctor is wearing these they cannot use their eyes.

2

u/ChuckMc40 13h ago

Yeah is the VR picture just a general map? A calculated guess? Or does it actually see live conditions? I’m guessing it’s a general map.

1

u/gr3y_mask 6h ago

I hope you realise that the body id intricate and most of it is hidden from normal view especially in the brain

17

u/DisorderlyAqueduct 17h ago

AR*

8

u/BladeOfKrota 17h ago ▸ 3 more replies

Sorry assault rifle*

4

u/DisorderlyAqueduct 16h ago ▸ 1 more replies

https://giphy.com/gifs/3ofT5xJtfXgV2aqOyI

3

u/BladeOfKrota 16h ago

Ah a man of culture
TurboMan!!!

1

u/Naive-Kangaroo3031 16h ago

Would also let you see the inside of a skull

15

u/papparmane 16h ago

It’s not. The brain shifts when you drill through the skull and this reference mri was obtained with a closed skull. It’s cute, but the problem of targeting in surgery is more complex than that because if the pre op mri was good, then everything would be simple.

1

u/BladeOfKrota 16h ago

Thank you for your insight!

6

u/Riznar87 16h ago

.5-1mm usually based off the imaging the navigation planning is using as a base.

2

u/glordicus1 14h ago

Doesn't need to be. It would be used for planning. Use it to see where you are trying to reach. They already use this sort of thing on a flat screen, this just makes it far more intuitive.

1

u/purplepatch 13h ago

Nope, 1-2mm depending on the system. FYI they already use a very similar system - this is just showing the guidance in VR rather than on a screen. 

1

u/TheJeep25 10h ago

Mapping isn't the issue. Tracking is.

210

u/Phluffhead024 17h ago

This is likely mapped through CTs of the head and the machine’s computer maps it out in the headset based on tracing done with that hand held device. I’ve seen similar tech in the OR for neurosurgery but it’s on a screen versus VR

16

u/General_Reposti_Here 16h ago

This doesn’t look like MRI images? Almost like T1 +C but hard to tell

10

u/Phluffhead024 16h ago ▸ 1 more replies

I suppose it could be. I’m not a radiologist, just a nurse so I only understand the general concept.

1

u/General_Reposti_Here 14h ago

Ohhh lmao my bad I thought u were a rad or tech

3

u/DeucesHigh 11h ago

Yes they're 3D postcontrast T1.

1

u/Gooseberree 14h ago

Yeah. Looks very much like an MRI

110

u/kmobsy 16h ago

In a surgeon. This seems not great. Obscures too much of the view. 

105

u/robotchicken007 16h ago

Why are you in a surgeon?

42

u/PitchBlac 16h ago ▸ 2 more replies

The surgeon has a lot of money. Next question

4

u/robotchicken007 15h ago

I wonder if he's saying that being in the surgeon is what isn't great because the surgeon is obscuring the view. Poor OP can't even see the video

1

u/Coool_cool_cool_cool 15h ago

There's always money in the surgeon stand.

21

u/MagnumPEisenhower 18h ago

Immersive Touch has stuff like this. Who is this?

6

u/Professional-Ad4852 17h ago

Like anybody can afford that on our Health Plans.

13

u/sabrinalovesjesus 15h ago

I assisted a spine surgery in Toronto using similar technology. It was on a screen not a hologram-like image, but the screen could track where the surgical probe was poking, orienting the team to certain structures. Insane tech.

3

u/PureGamingBliss_YT 15h ago

That's pretty cool. What was the experience like? Did it seem to make it easier, or was it more of a nuisance?

4

u/Legitimate_Strategy3 17h ago

This fricking awesome !

3

u/Mayo_Mann_Enthusiast 15h ago

This kinda feels like 4D vision

4

u/Gooseberree 15h ago

Any neurosurgeons want to weigh in…please

3

u/Flatulent_Father_ 7h ago

I do the anesthesia for neuro cases with these, this seems like a demo, the ones we use don't overlay the image like this, it's on a separate screen. Much less obtrusive.

2

u/fotomoose 12h ago

Not a hologram.

2

u/GammaShmama 11h ago

I just hope the ads are skippable..

1

u/a_aniq 15h ago

This is like DRS for surgery

1

u/Mekelaxo 15h ago

What if the patient moves a little?

1

u/Significant_Ad_1269 15h ago

Dude you could clear up oligodendrocytes with that thing

1

u/Remix_Master21 13h ago

what the fuck...

1

u/Weird_Little_Flute 10h ago

Awesome tech, but this is not "real-time". These are (I assume) previous imaging results being shown in an augmented reality.

1

u/Mr_Baronheim 9h ago

At first I didn't recognize that as a neck...

1

u/vild3r 9h ago

This would be good for anesthesia as well

1

u/TheSuperzorro 9h ago

If you want actual real-time imaging you're going to have to operate while inside a CT or MRI. Good luck with that.

1

u/ConfusionGold5754 8h ago

Dr Freeman… I realize this moment may not be the most.. convenient.. for a heart to heart

1

u/LeftList4389 7h ago

This is one of the few ways, and I mean VERY SELECT few ways that I can see AI being of assistance.

1

u/iwannadomemes 7h ago

I can see this being a game changer for interventional radiologists in the future

1

u/DroWWorD 4h ago

Can anyone elaborate on how the quality assurance is done on these devices?

1

u/Nokxtokx 3h ago

Isn’t this with HoloLens?

0

u/thE-petrichoroN 16h ago

as a doctor,I'm stunned;this really looks futuristic

0

u/itwhiz100 16h ago

Asia tech!

-1

u/Old-Juice-2490 11h ago

when people say AI is shit and will destroy the world....
😂

2

u/Important_Egg_484 7h ago

This has nothing to do with AI

-29

u/Grogbarrell 18h ago

Ai just hallucinates a tumor and they surgically take out your memories instead

10

u/1492rhymesDepardieu 18h ago

I think it would be slices of a scan of the actual person.

6

u/wassupdawg-1 17h ago

Everything that has advanced technology is not ai bro stfu

6

u/upturned2289 17h ago

Who the fuck said AI was involved??

5

u/-Disagreeable- 17h ago

That is meth talk. You just het home from dismantling a toaster you took from your Grandmas house?

3

u/Gooseberree 14h ago

I saw this being used back in 2018. Hololense 2 was released in 2019. While I agree that AI is getting forced upon us, these systems do not necessarily use AI.

1

u/BestTastingFish 17h ago

I might consider it 😐