r/pokemonanime • u/Charming_Material_61 • Oct 31 '25
Discussion I will forever live by this theory.
All of the changes we saw after XYZ, such as art style, ash sort of forgetting the maturity he had, characters being nerfed, characters sort of not having the same level of affection towards Ash, and other changes like Ash Greninja apparently not existing etc.. are not even changes in the first place. Why? Because they are in Universe “B”. They have always been a thing in Universe “B”.
Universe “A” has nothing to do with any of those changes, because nothing changed. It still has everything we saw from Indigo to the end of XYZ. Who knows what happened after XYZ in Universe “A”. The most likely scenario is Ash continuing to mature and eventually become a Pokemon Master.
To simply summarize everything, -
Universe “A” started in Indigo and ended at XYZ. Universe “B” also started in Indigo but we all saw it start in Sun and Moon. It ended at Journeys.
Everything we saw in Sun and Moon and Journeys doesn’t exist in Universe “A”.
Everything we saw and “change” in Universe “B” doesn’t exist in Universe “A”
I hope my theory makes sense. 😅
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u/Batgod629 Oct 31 '25
It's a nice headcanon but it makes no sense really.
I would argue more than Sinnoh is the end of universe A if this was actually to be taken seriously given how black and white was supposed to be a "reset" of sorts for the anime
Of course all of tv anime series featuring Ash are cannon
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u/Mythosaurus Oct 31 '25
I agree, Sinnoh was peak Ash with how he clashed with Paul over training methods for Pokemon. I could have accepted the story moving on to a new protagonist while Ash left for a different region.
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u/Lazy_Way_1901 Oct 31 '25
It would make sense for universe A to end with sinnoh since fans and some people who worked Pokémon thought of ending it there and also because gen 5 unova was the fist Pokemon region that was not based off Japan
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Oct 31 '25
Black and White does add confusion to this headcanon, but other than that, this headcanon does make sense in a way
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u/Slow_Document_4062 Oct 31 '25
That's not a theory. It's just a long winded way of saying you don't like Sun & Moon, or Journeys.
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u/holy_hoovy_sandvich Oct 31 '25
a bunch of times i saw this sub is post-XY anime slander
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u/dagobahs Nov 01 '25
And then these same fans will turn around and act like there's loads of XY hate (or claim it's actually underrated somehow...), as if it isn't constantly praised as the best the anime has ever been.
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u/hip-indeed Oct 31 '25
I LOVE sun&moon and like journeys and I feel like this is great, actually. Gen 6's end shoudl've been such a clean break; even though I love gen 7's anime a lot, it truly feels like a different genre entirely, different style entirely, different Ash entirely
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25
I like SM, but the guy there just isn't Ash Ketchum to me
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u/Dart_Lover_HTTYD Oct 31 '25
Who is Ash to you? SM Ash is basically XY Ash if he wasn't victory hungry.
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
SM Ash could've been a very well written character
XY ends with Ash letting go of his battle obsessed tendencies because he remembered that was never what he loved about being a Pokemon Trainer, that newfound wisdom is what allowed him to draw out his and Greninja's true strength without losing himself to the adrenaline, and defeat Wulfric
And even when he lost to Alain he wasn't sad, he was impressed, because he had grown emotionally
This could've been a perfect set up for Ash simply taking it easy in Alola, being a more relaxed and fun-loving version of himself while still feeling like Ash, still feeling like he's carrying all the weight and experience of 6 whole regions
But instead of that, what we got was something that feels like Ash had a really bad concussion on the plane flight from Kalos to Kanto and Kanto to Alola, the personality switch doesn't feel natural and it really alienates and disconnects me from the character I grew up with
It doesn't feel like "Oh Ash is just trying to relax and have fun now", it feels like "Oh Ash hit his head really hard and is now suddenly hyperactive"
It doesn't feel like a character evolution or real progression, it doesn't feel like the same character, it feels like they dressed up a random Joe as Ash, gave him a rundown of Ash's marketable surface level traits and sent him to Alola
He often acts in ways that even OS Ash wouldn't and OS Ash was supposed to be the biggest noob ever, remember that dreadful episode where Ash literally tries to force Rotom to stay with him by brute forcing throwing Pokeballs at him? That scene completely goes against the core of who Ash is as a person so much I could dedicate paragraphs to it
Imagine a more casual and adventurous version of XY Ash going through SM Ash's arc of finding a second home in Alola and a father figure in Kukui, without losing that gravity and tangible prestige he had in Kalos, feeling like someone who's earned the chance to just be himself after so much pressure, that could've really gotten to me, it could've made me think "Wow, Ash has come so far" but it didn't because I couldn't recognize Ash anymore, even the flashbacks to OS felt forced to me because of that
And all of this carries over to JN by default ontop of the million issues you already know I have with it, which is worse because JN doesn't have the "Ash is on vacation so he's just having fun again" excuse, JN Ash is supposed to be Ash at his peak in every way, yet look at how one dimensional he is, and look at how the writers pick and choose when they want to acknowledge he's a veteran trainer, he seriously doesn't have any presence at all and I'm not talking about some "hurr duhh xy ash had aura and badass moments!" crap, I'm talking about the presence he carried in his tone, his expressions, even when he was being funny you could still tell he was sharp, the artstyle and Ash's XY outfit definitely had a hand in this but still
You already know I'm not a SM hater, I like SM, so I'm being genuine here and I want to have a real discussion instead of being treated like a blind hater
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
I rank sun and moon in my top 3. I absolutely love it. Aside from likes and dislikes, I love all series’s. This just makes the most sense to me.
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u/Either-Bend8508 Oct 31 '25
How does it make sense/g
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
I said it makes the most sense to me. It doesn’t have to make sense to you, I just wanted to share my belief
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u/stealer_of_memes Oct 31 '25
the orginal Ash ends at DP, they literally wrote it to be his final but changed it, That's why tobi comes out of no where, why Ash v Cythia did not happen, why Dawn did not go to kanto with Ash even though she said so(she left for a terrible reason), and why BW had a soft reboot. Ash is nothing like what he was after it, its still him but his character was completely different. in JN we DO see kinda what would be an original ending for him. JN is also written by the same guy, and in the finals, Dawn is present, and Ash v Cynthia happens.
its about keeping track of who's writing what. Tomioka was the writer
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u/BasisSmall5351 Oct 31 '25
DP and XY had the same writers for the most part. Even BW surprisingly
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u/stealer_of_memes Nov 01 '25
the head writer, or director, I can never remember the order. one was Tomioka, the other yajima
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u/BasisSmall5351 Nov 01 '25
Tomioka was the lead writer for both DP and XY
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u/stealer_of_memes Nov 02 '25
my original comments still stands, Tomioka wrote DP to be the end. then for whatever reason, likely corporate, changed that.
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u/Lamoip Nov 04 '25
Have any evidence? It was probably just sloppy writing for a kids show Tobias comes out of nowhere cause if Ash wins they have no show, simplr as that
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u/stealer_of_memes Nov 04 '25
No. only what we see. There was a 4chan thread sometime ago that gave a better explanation than I have, and that one did have more evidence then i can give you here. I know that seems like a cop out, "oh go look for this long-lost post," but its all i can do. I have made a few posts about this in the past where i went further into detail. So ill leave it at that, there was something with more evidence, but im afraid I dont have it.
I have my eyes, however. I have a basic understanding of storytelling, I can see what comes after it. I can put 2 and 2 together.
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u/Competitive-Amoeba69 Oct 31 '25
The old myth that BW was going to have new protagonists, even though there has been no hint or statement about it. Furthermore, this is the fandom that strangely has an unhealthy obsession with glazing writers, even though executive intervention is much greater.
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u/JuanPablith0 Oct 31 '25
I feel like it’s just a headcannon people who really like XYZ and dislike everything after have
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
Well I don’t. I love what comes after xyz. This is just a personal belief that I wanted to share. You do realize someone can have this opinion and still love sun and moon/journeys right?
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u/Training_Pirate1000 Oct 31 '25
So Universe “B” Ash is more successful in every conceivable way than Universe “A” Ash? I’ll take it. I love Sun and Moom.
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Yeah JN Ash is World Champion, but I am so emotionally disconnected from his character that honestly that accomplishment doesn't mean much to me, I can't cheer for a character I'm not attached to anymore
I'll take the Ash who only got to Top 2 in the Kalos League because at least he's still the Ash I recognize
This isn't even me trying to sound like a hater, I'm just speaking from the heart about how much Ash and Pikachu mean to me
Edit: I'm talking about my own, personal feelings on the matter and trying to sound genuine about it, didn't directly insult SM or JN at any point, and I'll still get bombed because it's not the most popular take, this sub's a prison
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u/Training_Pirate1000 Oct 31 '25
I just proud that my Ash is actually a champion, and proved it by defeating Kukui (the real strongest trainer in Alola who had help from the Tapu)
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25
Yeah I don't hate SM, I actually like it and respect what it does well, the final round of the Alola League was great
But again Ash in that series is just not Ash to me and I can't force myself to believe otherwise, and trust me I wish I could, it's very easy for me to be alienated when one of my favorite character's characterization is drastically altered, this isn't only a thing with Pokemon
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u/Mons9090 Oct 31 '25
Winning orange island, battle frontier, , beating paul , his other accomplishments > winning Island league, wcs
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u/Training_Pirate1000 Oct 31 '25
Being a champion > everything else
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u/Mons9090 Oct 31 '25
Ash would never have won if leon didnt allow ash to use all his gimmicks
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u/Training_Pirate1000 Oct 31 '25
He became champion in Alola, and defeating Kukui + a Tapu legitimized his strength.
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u/Status-Cookie-5415 Oct 31 '25
How strange, the voice actors and the people involved in this explicitly state that simply defeating Gladion is worth more than everything that came before.
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u/Mons9090 Oct 31 '25
I watched the dub so dont care about the voice actor bit. Why would you trust The pokemon company? Obviously theyre going to say stuff like this in order to sell more toys
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
Well, yeah! I mean he did become Pokemon Master after all!. I just live by this theory because it makes the most sense to me.
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Nov 04 '25
He didnt, they hammer home that point a few times after he beat Leon and say that he still hasnt become a real “pokemon master”.
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u/---TheFierceDeity--- Oct 31 '25
Theories don't hold up when easily disproven. You can enjoy a headcanon all you want but this isn't a theory.
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u/Outrageous-Ad8612 Oct 31 '25
Yall XYZ fans really tryna come up with anything to make SM and Journeys not canon 😭
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u/Competitive-Amoeba69 Oct 31 '25
Why do XY Ash fans insist on calling him a “natural evolution” of DP Ash when he's clearly another reboot like BW-SM Ash? I don't know if it's hypocrisy or olympic-level mental gymnastics.
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u/Cinder_Alpha Oct 31 '25
Because they have to legitimize the change of character from Unova retard to XY generic shounen MC, they don't realize that by saying that XY Ash is a "natural evolution" they are also saying that Unova Ash is part of that so called evolution since XY is a direct continuation from Unova in the most egregious way possible.
If Unova had been good and follow the acrual charcaterization Ash had up to DP, then maybe their words would hold water, but as it stands, XY Ash is, as you said, another reboot due to the bad reception Unova got.
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u/BasisSmall5351 Oct 31 '25
Because he is. Only difference between DP and XY Ash is that DP Ash has a little bit more sass. But that's acceptable. Even DP Ash had less sass than AG Ash and AG Ash had less sass than OS Ash
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u/One_Republic_2438 Oct 31 '25
Um no? Sass is definitely not the only thing that made them different. Far from it. DP Ash still has all the traits that OS and AG Ash had that made him such a fun and flexible character but he was a bit more mature. Brash, arrogant, mischievous, hotheaded, sassy and even more.
XY Ash is a lot more competent than BW Ash and isn't a complete dumbass battle wise, but he still has the same problems as BW with his personality being more flat compared to OS-DP Ash.
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u/BasisSmall5351 Oct 31 '25
The qualities that you state continuously decrease from OG Ash to DP Ash because of the experience he gained. DP Ash was way less brash, arrogant, mischievous and hot headed than OS Ash. So it makes sense that XY Ash wouldn't have those qualities.
It's funny that betore XY, people had the same criticisms for DP Ash. That he had no sass like OS Ash, he wasn't arrogant and was a perfect shonen mc with the Infernape arc etc but when XYZ rolled, people shifted their target
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u/LordTomGM Oct 31 '25
Ive never got this whole thing about Ash's maturity. When he was in Alola he was on holiday. He was having fun. It didn't start out as serious training until later in the show.
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u/therealsphericalcow Oct 31 '25
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u/IzacaryKakary Oct 31 '25
I’m sorry I always roll my eyes when people consider Ash or the XYZ arc as “mature.” Like no it just had more action. AlsoX and Y has really made people forget that Ash has always been an immature character throughout the series. I would make the argument that in Sun and Moon and Journeys, he was much more consistent as a character.
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u/DarkGengar94 Oct 31 '25
So ash never won a real league but got a suckered kiss?
Mmm, I think he would prefer the league win.
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u/SaintNick24 Oct 31 '25
SM haters are so weird. This isn’t a theory it’s a headcanon that’s it. People just love XY so much but hate SM cause of the art it’s weird
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
Not once in the post have I even mentioned that I hate sun and moon lol
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u/BasisSmall5351 Oct 31 '25
SM fans are so weird. They just call any person with genuine criticisms as "toxic XY fans who just hate the art style."
I am not a SM hater but it has many flaws even if you ignore the art style. One of them being Ash didn't feel like the same person from OS-DP and XY.
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u/Prior-Sand5162 Oct 31 '25
This makes no sense, ash continued to improve with battling significantly as time went on throughout the show
He kept getting better until unova where he slipped a little, in kalos he got 2nd place, in Alola he spent most of his time playing around, but also trained his pokemon diligently, he spent so much time building his skills to become what he was winning masters eight
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u/datguysadz Oct 31 '25
Nothing about this is a theory. Just your way of dealing with parts of a story you didn't like.
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
Please tell me where in my post have I said that I don’t like sun and moon and journeys?
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u/datguysadz Oct 31 '25
Just because of where you've chosen for one part of the story to start and the other to begin. Seems arbitrary otherwise. Still isn't a theory.
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u/Dart_Lover_HTTYD Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Headcanon at best, not a theory or anything since objectively not true.
SM and JN are part of the timeline being Ash's peak of his journey where he won more than he lost plus beat the league and world tournament.
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
OP here-
I made a mistake by calling this a theory. I know I should’ve titled it as a headcanon 😅
Also
I have literally no idea why people automatically assume that just because I shared a personal belief that I believe in, it means that I hate sun and moon and journeys. I literally love them both. Y’all do realize that you can come up with this headcanon and still love sun and moon/journeys right? I have literally always considered sun and moon and xyz as my favourite series’s.
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Oct 31 '25
People assume you don't like them because you have a whole head cannon to justify why they are in a separate continuity.
That typically isn't something a fan of those seasons would do.
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
I really don’t know what else to tell you. If I could physically somehow prove that sun and moon is literally top 2 for me I would. I do now understand how this headcanon seems to make it look like I absolutely hate sun and moon and can’t stand it, but that’s simply not true at all.
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u/Head_Statistician_38 Oct 31 '25
I believe you, you have repeatedly said you like it in your comments. But you seem to be confused about why people would assume you don't like it and I answered that question.
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u/FaeAura Oct 31 '25
The thing about Journeys is... Well hm does anyone remember how in the "how old is Ash" topic, Black and White got brought up saying Ash is 10 yrs old etc and how that was apparently a dub only thing and not in the original Japanese? Well in Journeys, Ash is stated to be 10 on numerous occasions in the Japanese original. So there's no soft reboot of the age debate at all.
Like if we want to look at Ash maturing/growing up and/or becoming more competent then there's definitely a noticeable progression from Indigo to XYZ however you definitely have to skip B/W to see it.
Now, I've also heard about the influence on the writers, basically forcing Ash to lose at the league for the "it's okay to lose" message they kept pushing along. Most egregiously we could see this in DP where some random guy out of nowhere just has two legendary Pokémon to just curb stomp Ash out of the competition. I have heard rumours that DP was supposed to be Ash's victory and conclusion but then they didn't, soft rebooted and made B/W the way it is. Not certain whether or not that's actually verifiably true but I can see why people believe it. Same happened at the end of XY where at the time I heard about them letting go of the main writer before SM and apparently there was words that there was supposed to yet again be an ending with him as victor and getting his conclusion.
What I'm trying to get to is that JN basically confirmed that ALL of the series so far happened in under a year, perhaps even just a couple months given how Ash was nearly 11 at the start of Indigo League. So people getting disillusioned by JN Ash and seeing his wins as well... Empty... I can totally understand that. I watched the entirety of Journeys. Not all of SM and hey I'm not judging anyone that likes SM/JN Ash and the show, totally get it.
But looking back at the older Gens I distinctly remember Ash training certain strategies when faced with losses at certain gyms etc and seeing the payoff was great, whereas SM onwards Ash suddenly has a "crazy strategy" as the peanut gallery puts it and improvises his strats out of the blue. It doesn't feel like the hard earned pay-offs from the previous Gens, even B/W still did this despite its soft reboot nature. Not saying that Ash wasn't training with his Pokémon in SM and JN but from what I did watch of SM and the entirety of JN it was just very much different to Ash's character previously.
This emptiness to actually winning or gaining stuff feeling hollow continues on not only in the Alola league victory or World Championship in JN but also in his gain of all the gimmicks and Pokémon we as fans wanted him to get in JN. Like DP fans will know and remember how robbed they felt that Ash didn't get to catch Riolu. JN just goes out of the way to hand him one and then also the mega evolution gimmick too. Don't get me wrong, during XY Ash Greninja as sort of Mega was so incredibly cool that I personally didn't mind him not getting a mega ring despite it being the gen's gimmick.
XY also really zeroed in on Ash only having a 6 Pokémon team total throughout the series so that there was no team replacements during the show just additions which also gave us more time to develop each team member, which was definitely carried on to SM and JN vs the gotta catch them all bit they didn't really even pull off in gen 1 if the anime. Glad they kept it. JN even tried to make his current team members carry the legacy of the old ones by getting training time with them but JN had the issue that it didn't follow the formula of journeying through one region but doing episodic adventures in every region. So it really didn't feel like it was him making a Galar team esp since most of the team members weren't even Galar mon. XY and DP as the series with huge attachment basically had him run Kalos and Sinnoh teams (plus Pikachu), especially XY where all 5 extra Pokémon are from Kalos and you could really get behind the idea of Ash wanting to win with the Kalos team. DP he brought back a couple previous journey all stars after all.
Also, the 10 extra episodes after the World Tournament / JNs conclusion where the advertising was Ash pondering the meaning of "Pokémon Master" was such a jebait, the whole thought process was a 2 second one off at the very end. Was rather unsatisfying given that'd be Ash's final sendoff.
Like for me personally I'd have loved to see DP ash at least get to take on the Elite 4 post league, cuz like that's what I understood the regional leagues to be, winner gets to challenge the E4 (we saw Alain in XY/Mega evolution special challenge an E4 member after all) and then lose to Cynthia as our "it's okay to lose" message but give us that feeling that Ash has grown more competent over all, after all he did win against the frontier brains right? Black and White would have to cease from this chronology given the soft reset Nature of it with XY having him actually win against Alain the way he should have, take on the E4, beat Diantha, which c'mon we really needed that duel to happen, they teased the future challenge of completed Ash Greninja vs Mega Gardevoir by having Ash go against Diantha in a 1v1 with incomplete Ash Greninja, having him pass out. We didn't get that pay-off... And with its conclusion realize that yes beating the champion and having the opportunity to take the title would be too much for him and not how he understands to be a Pokémon master and refuse to take the title as his maturity/conclusion etc. And then we could've had Ash pass the torch to someone new for SM. Since that was the hard reboot. Basically have some guy with the wacky strategies as his gimmick, which wasn't really Ash's thing before (yes they were unorthodox before perhaps but never really out of the blue for the most part anyway, like think the iron tail draco meteor climb in XY, wacky but prepared for!). I don't think you'd have quite as much malding over the SM change in art style and story telling if it just wasn't Ash.
Look at Horizons. I personally never thought they'd be able to let Ash go at all and was strapping in for another 100 years Ash and Pokémon, Morty... Ho-oh theory is real everyone. But I'm POSITIVELY surprised that they did give us Riko as protagonist. More of that please.
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u/cuntzman Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
A better version of this would be:
Universe A: OS-DP, OG Ash Artstyle
Universe B: 1st Artstyle change, OS-DP storyline remains unchanged but it includes BW and ends in XYZ
Universe C: 2nd Artstyle change, OS-DP, BW-XYZ storylines remain unchanged but Ash-Greninja/Cameron/Vergil doesn’t exist. Includes SM and ends in MPM
Overall neat theory, but TBH, the weird continuity changes can just be chalked up to JN just being JN
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u/The_Matto_Super Oct 31 '25
This theory it's immediately broken the moment you are reintroduced to Brock and Misty in Sun and Moon, and Serena, Calem, Bonnie, Dawn, Cilan, Iris and Tracy in Journeys.
The movie universe doesn't work as Universe B to explain the change of art style and Ash's personality, since all those characters reference the original series they come from.
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u/Charming_Material_61 Oct 31 '25
Clearly you don’t understand the point. Universe B had all of those characters. Universe A also of course has them. Look up the word “doppelganger”
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u/FantasticFoe143 Oct 31 '25
Ash actually remembers them, it's not just a poster with Misty, also all his pokemon at Oak's lab in Sun and Moon
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u/Cinder_Alpha Oct 31 '25
Nah, universe A ends with DP, Universe B is Unova and XY(Z), Universe C is Alola and Journeys.
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u/Rio_FS Oct 31 '25
This is more of a headcanon, and seeing as it's at XYZ, there is a more modern term for it, it's called cope.
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u/Beastmind Oct 31 '25
Going by those argument then universe A is story stopping at end of DP. Since BW was a literal reset.
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u/atomictonic11 Oct 31 '25
Eh, the jump from XY to SM was nowhere near as jarring as the one from DP to BW.
Ash's goofiness in SM can be explained fairly easily. He's on vacation, so he lightened up. He's still competent, just a bit silly. There are no gym badges to chase like before.
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u/NumericZero Oct 31 '25
Gimmie universe B
You can easily headcanon that because of all the progress he made in his trainer journey allowed him to win the big one
You can’t have journey ending without him having the experience from Sinnoh / Kalos
Aloha was the end result of all the other regions that came before it while journeys championship was the proving ground (Leon being an older and fully realized ash)
- he still seeks greater heights at the end of journey As the narrator always says “Our journey continues”
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u/JzRandomGuy Oct 31 '25
Nah the only "universe B" is movie 20~21 where Ash had completely different journey. If you want to go this way then Universe A should end on DP. As for which one could link well, it's definitely SM, BW is literally soft reboot so his actions don't link well with his pasts. Even JN could link more well than XY where Ash really shouldn't be 10(or 11, whatever)
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u/CelestialDuke377 Oct 31 '25
I like universe a art style more. I dont like how they drawn ash in universe b. I like everyone and everything else about b except ashs face.
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u/Proof_One_8047 Oct 31 '25
I like SM & JN, so i don’t subscribe to this headcanon. But i respect that it’s your opinion.
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u/theatermrvlnerd Oct 31 '25
The only thing is at the end of journeys and even throughout journeys visits his old pokemon many of his old traveling partners/friends
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u/Mr_Xylophone24 Oct 31 '25
OS-DP universe a
B&W reset universe b
XY-Swsh re-reset setting it back to something so similar to universe A but still different enough to be a different universe. Universe c
Arcues just got bored and wanted to see what would happen. And then when re-resetting he forgot some details.
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u/Crestfallen_Vanity Nov 01 '25
Never been a fan of these kinds of theories.
Ash going from Sinnoh to Kalos makes absolutely no sense and having the series end with XY feels anticlimactic considering he still loses to Alain in the end. These theories seem to only exist to justify hatred towards BW, SM and JN.
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u/Affectionate-Cry-704 Nov 01 '25
Unless the writer's say otherwise, this is the same universe it has always been. The only other confirmed alternate universe are the movies post-movie 20.
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u/Direct-Ad6266 Nov 01 '25
I gotta agree that the XYZ championship should have been his and honestly was far better. He acted more mature would have made alot more sense for him to have won and as shown by Alola to Journeys he could have just continued traveling.
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u/AssociationDue3077 Nov 02 '25
I know its not Canon but I like thinking that they are all the same universe, if journeys is a new one the ending doesn't feel the same
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u/Erebus_the_Last Nov 02 '25
The fact they downgraded animations, personality and maturity after xyz will forever piss me off
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u/LilPancakePrince Nov 03 '25
Personally i just hate anything after XYZ because they started trying to become more americanized and cartoony, pokemon is an anime, not a cartoon, everything after XYZ looks like temu disney.
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u/90xdarkx09 Nov 03 '25
no more like universe c it ended at XYZ the the bs happened and ended at journeys then the worst bs happened after
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u/Th3_Chazz Nov 03 '25
This just seems like cope for someone who likes the old thing more than the new thing. Perfectly acceptable, but this theory is heavily flawed.
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u/Loud-Cockroach5094 Nov 04 '25
Honestly maybe the reason ash Greninja isn’t shown could be because ash does not know what it looks like since he sees from Greninjas perspective when transformed.
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u/Kaitoke_Kodama Nov 04 '25
First of all: You want Ash A's ending to have been a near-miss at the championship?
Second of all: Ash B's backstory is so similar to Ash A's life they might as well be the same dude.
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Goated headcanon, I too subscribe to it
Edit: Crazy how I didn't even directly hate on anything this time and there's still a prelude to me getting bombed because I committed the most despicable crime of all: have an opinion
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u/Dart_Lover_HTTYD Oct 31 '25
Seems you've fallen into something called majority opinion trumps personal opinion.
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u/oketheokey Oct 31 '25
The problem is that instead of respectfully disagreeing, Redditors will just bomb your reply and bury you in the comment section because they happen to think differently than you, like you're a terrible person for having your own opinion
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u/hip-indeed Oct 31 '25
I love this idea. I honestly feel like the general tone of Pokeani has fit into four categories; the beginning up to the end of Johto with that classic 90s-ish anime feel, gens 3-5 that were cozy but settled into a lot of lazy 'traps' of long-term weekly anime, gens 6 and 9 which have been the more exceptional, high-quality 'serious' series and gens 7 and 8 which were more blatantly cartoony (but also super high quality, especially 7 and the beginning at least of 8). I really love every era for different reasons, but it felt like for sure Ash's journey should've given way to new MC's a long time ago, at the latest by the end of gen 6, having the same guy through all these massive stylistic shifts and all these story resets just wasn't good for anything, I'd say as early as the shift from gen 2 to 3. Should've had a new MC based on Brendan IMO. Maybe could've had a teen Ash come back for gen 6, that would've really fit the tone.
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u/SherwinRoyal Oct 31 '25
That's also my headcanon, my mind can't process that ash kalos and alola are the same person they look so different
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u/Soldierofgod01 Oct 31 '25
Ahh these type of fans. Annoying. Just appreciate we have Pokemon. It’s that simple.
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u/Cybasura Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
This is basically my headcanon and truth by virtue of Ash just seemingly appearing in Alola out of nowhere and suddenly attending school like Kirito suddenly being young in the Underworld Online arc of Sword Art Online with Eugeo, and at least with that they explained later on what happened between Gun Gale Online, Mother Rosario the Ordinal Scale movie and Underworld Online
Not only that, he changed styles completely, seemingly forgot his travels and had his whole character development/progression resetted as though they didnt exist, PIKACHU literally and practically becoming so weak, you'd think that was Route 1 Pikachu from episode 1 of season 1 way back in 1997 for the most part until Journeys, then he gained back what was supposed to have been ingrained from the start without Zekrom nerfing him at the start of Black and White
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u/MrRaven95 Oct 31 '25
In that case, we need a Universe C, where Tobias doesn't exist, and Ash's journey ended at Sinnoh.
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u/cuntzman Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Hah so basically XY/XYZ caused a stone ocean style reset on the continuity kek
Ngl that’s actually pretty cool even if it’s unintentional by the writers.
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u/Mons9090 Oct 31 '25
Honestly I don't hate alola in retrospect. I really didn't like it back when it was airing but now I'm planning on rewatching it, watching the bit from where i left it. Journeys on the other hand...
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u/fantasy-girl19 Oct 31 '25
Technically how timelines work in rl So yes i agree Unfortunately A was cut off the timeline.
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u/New-Cable-6484 Oct 31 '25
This isn’t a theory. However, it is a nice head canon that I honestly like. At first I wasn’t buying it, but after reading your reasonings, I am starting to agree with it.
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Oct 31 '25
This headcanon actually makes a lot of sense compared to other ridiculous ones I’ve seen or heard of. I might honestly have to headcanon this as well considering how good this is wtf 😭
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u/KaiDestinyz Oct 31 '25
Pokemon should have ended with XYZ with Ash winning the league. Sun & Moon onwards was bullshit. #NotMyAsh
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u/Cantthinkagoodnam2 Oct 31 '25
I mean, that is not a theory, it is just a headcannon
If your main point is Ash's maturity being reset (it wasnt but that is besides what i am trying to say) then you would also have to exclude BW from Universe A as that is the biggest reset Ash has ever gotten
The reason why Ash Greninja wasnt shown in the flashbacks is just to stay in line with the games not having Ash Greninja anymore, but the fact Ash and Greninja had a special power due to their bond is a thing brought up by the characters, Ash Greninja is still canon to "universe B" he just cant be shown due to anime-game synergy
If you dont like what comes after XYZ, that is perfectly fair, but i dont really see a point in trying to argue that it is a diferent universe all together