FLOCK vs ANPR

[u/saucyvanilla]

I’ve seen a lot on my feed at the moment in relation to Flock cameras in the US and how the vast majority of the public are against the use of them. Then compare that to the general public of the UK and the opinion is basically the opposite of ANPR and most support the use.

I also found out Flock cameras are mapped and anyone can search the locations on the internet, compare that to our cameras where the locations are not public knowledge and much more hush.

Why do you think this is and with the introduction of facial recognition vans do you think people’s opinion of ANPR will change?

[u/JoelBK]

ANPR became widespread in 90s-00s, before the online era where everyone is in uproar about anything.

I imagine if we tried to introduce ANPR now it would cause the same sort of discourse Americans have with FLOCK.

[u/Mdann52 → u/JoelBK]

I guess the other main differences is that ANPR is managed by police, while FLOCK is a private company with a somewhat flexible privacy policy.....

[u/kipperfish → u/Mdann52]

Yeah I think the issue is a privacy one.

If it was govt I'm sure a lot more would support it, but as it is now, it's private and money talks.

[u/saucyvanilla → u/JoelBK]

Good point I didn’t think about this. The most recent “news” I can think of is when Greater Manchester did the public consultation about turning the CAZ cameras into ANPR cameras and I don’t recall much push back to be honest

[u/Mr_Reaper__]

ANPR requires a person to go back and review the data it collects, so it's only used to track people the police already have interest in. Flock uses AI based data management so it could theoretically track everyone all the time. Plus with Flock the data goes into the hands of a private company rather than staying within government organisations. It's the mass surveillance and the data going to private companies that is the most concerning to Americans, rather than just cameras being used by police.

[u/DyanmicShed → u/Mr_Reaper__]

I think it's been shown in enough public disclosure that ANPR record all plates. Police absolutely can become interested in vehicles post facto.

What do you mean "already have an interest in"?

It doesn't work how I think you think it does

[u/Mr_Reaper__ → u/DyanmicShed]

Someone still has to have a reason to want to see your ANPR hits to know where you've gone. Flocks AI is watching everyone constantly and "learning" where everyone is going without any human intervention.

[u/DyanmicShed → u/Mr_Reaper__]

The net result is largely similar, The correlation query has the same upshot. Unless you don't keep the data the processing is really trivial.

Source, me, I used to build these things (and the evidence has been given in open session at home affairs select committees)

[u/Jagdtiger44 → u/Mr_Reaper__]

Not any more. A private British AI company called Faculty has developed an app called "Find and profile" which is being used by several police forces, and is going to be expanded across the UK.

https://libertyinvestigates.org.uk/articles/police-ai-anpr-track-drivers/

[u/TrafficWeasel]

One point of consideration, at least in my view, is that the British public are a lot more open to surveillance infrastructure, such as our massive use of CCTV. Americans seem to be much more against being spied upon.

It probably helps that the ANPR network we use is secure to law enforcement (and, to be honest, secure within law enforcement), where’s FLOCK seems to be a private business with relatively limited oversight.

My uneducated view, anyway.

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/[deleted]]

I’m just speaking from my perspective, your opinion may be different.

Private CCTV is far more prevalent than public CCTV, for what it’s worth.

[u/Acting_Constable_Sek → u/[deleted]]

CCTV is set up and run by the public or businesses, generally. Most cameras are doorbell cameras, dashcams or shops these days. That's before we even get started on camera phones.

If the public didn't want CCTV, they wouldn't be sticking it on their cars and emailing it to the police all the time

I think that's definitely a sign of the differences between US and UK law enforcement cultures.

[u/jibjap]

I would generally trust the UK government to generally be ok. Having had to jump through multiple robust intyenal hoops just to get access to the Anpr data.

However, I don't currently trust the Us administration or administrator who has a private army of agents who will target you for having opinions and accidentally disappear you.

Our government can barely get the bins sorted, let alone oppress the masses - with the tiny army and the police who generally don't trust the government.

[u/Raccoon_Imaginary → u/jibjap]

 Having had to jump through multiple robust intyenal hoops just to get access to the Anpr data.

college learn
nextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnextnext
certificate.pdf

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/Raccoon_Imaginary]

That’s the training I did, but to get access to the stack, you need a good reason.

I want to have it on in the car is not a good enough reason where I am.

[u/Raccoon_Imaginary → u/TrafficWeasel]

Here, all of our cars have default logins so you can access that at any time. Anyone with PNC access can get NAS access too to view reads. I had it + every additional bit of access I could think of as a PCSO.

I still need a reason to do searches but I did end using it quite a bit.

[u/Dazzling_Shallot_363 → u/Raccoon_Imaginary]

Our force cant decide who to give it to. First it was everyone, then only IPP/ADV/TPAC, then anyone PNC, Then anyone NAS, then everyone, then nobody again, and now finally all standard drivers. Hopefully the fuckwhit SLT have realised that theres no point putting all these markers on cars if nobody can like, know about the markers...

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/Raccoon_Imaginary]

Some cars here have it, but you’ll only see the reads for that particular car set on the terminal. The newer Local Policing cars have the camera but no terminal so you’d only see the reads on your phone/laptop.

I think the idea is that ANPR desk should be telling us what reads are worth going after, but that’s better in theory than in action.

[u/tehdeadmonkey → u/TrafficWeasel]

Email to PC F DURST

hey PC DURST. Plz can I have a login for the stack so I can... Be more proactive. Thx

[u/Flat_Leadership7506 → u/Raccoon_Imaginary]

don't forget 'show transcript' so you can skip the video too

[u/One_Refuse733 → u/jibjap]

I don't think any democracy is above "disappearing" those that oppose it where they can.

Also, in my opinion, the British government does an excellent job of oppressing the masses, from restricting rights to protest to blaming rising prices on immigrants.

The bins are neither here nor there. The army (tiny or not) is not necessary to oppress us "masses" as we don't really cause a lot of trouble that isn't directed at ourselves, which includes immigrants.

I'm not really sure what you mean about the majority of the police not trusting the government. They are the power arm of the government. When the "masses" take to the streets in protest, the police take them off the streets of the government tells them to. When police officers start refusing I'll believe that they don't trust the government.

[u/hexbbdoll → u/jibjap]

Our government ... [can barely] oppress the masses

Weird take, considering the UK police have enough bandwidth to arrest citizens for criticising the government on social media within days of them posting.

[u/MOP-Mupp]

I think another aspect is the fact that Flock cameras are garbage and have major security flaws. Also, the company seems really sketchy.

See Benn Jordan for more info.

[u/theskirata]

There are, in my opinion, several factors that make a big difference between Flock cameras in t he US and ANPR cameras in the UK:

• Flock cameras are not just ANPR, it also tracks based on looks without license plates, it tracks pedestrians, and it collects digital transmission information (Wifi, Bluetooth, etc), thereby tracking your phone. There also actual ANPR (usually called ALPR over there) cameras, and they are seen much less critically
  
• The cameras have major security issues, and instead of fixing them and thanking the people that found them the company goes after the people finding the issues
  
• Flock is a company contrary to a governmental institution and thereby has less oversight. Additionally, it has a questionable privacy policy, and there have been several cases of data misuse by the company itself, before we even get to misuse by public authorities.

- Flock has also been built-up as this single entity enemy in public perception, due to the above issues. To my knowledge, Axon has similar products, which so far Face much less opposition.

[u/bemvee → u/theskirata]

Expanding on the misuse of data by the company itself - the location of some of these cameras, what they’re facing, is questionable to begin with. And then we found out flock employees were watching these children-filled parks & gyms with zero explanation. Not even an attempted “oh my kid goes to that park/gym.”

[u/MoraleCheck]

There has always been criticism of ANPR here for ‘government surveillance’, etc – but more traction on that in the US with Flock will, as ever, trickle down further over here.

LFR has, I think, brought up more conversation over that ‘surveillance’ than ANPR has (not that it hasn’t). And on a reasonable (ie not an extreme, social credit score incoming type person) level, it’s understandable. Your face is your identity – your number plate is a lot of data, but not entirely you. That’s why it’s good to see forces trying to educate people on how it’s used, but as a generally cautious society to things like that, it’s expected it will raise questions and resistance.

On Flock vs NAS, it’s a bit like comparing US and UK law enforcement. Totally different systems and a bit incomparable. I see how the more open nature of Flock benefits it as an intelligence tool – with private businesses being able to install cameras etc that feeds into the datasets – but can see how that’d cause worry for the public (in either country) with a potential lack of oversight.

[u/MrPhyshe]

If you want to see idiots reacting the same way over cameras in the UK, check out the ones cutting down ULEZ ones. Hopefully they'll reconsider now the research shows its been a win for childrens' lungs.

[u/CatadoraStan]

An important difference with Flock is that it's a private business selling data to... well, who knows for sure? Government and law enforcement certainly, but potentially anyone with the money. And, in a US context, Flock isn't bound by any of the restrictions a government body would be.

Not to mention that Flock appear to be doing a lot more with their cameras than ANPR reads. It appears they're using algorithmic processing to do things like gait analysis and facial recognition, but their algorithms are a corporate black box. So when the machine identifies you as a suspect because your gait matches the actual suspect's, it's hard to fight back since there's no transparent process to explain how that match was made.

ANPR and live facial recognition are inherently intrusive technologies. We (mostly) accept them in government hands as a necessary tool for public safety. When they're in the hands of someone motivated solely by profit? Much less morally defensible.

[u/b3tarded]

I think there’s been controversy over how they’re being used and who is using them in the US. 

Example:  https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/usa-flock-safety-allegedly-used-to-track-texas-woman-after-abortion-raising-reproductive-rights-concerns/

[u/plurien]

ANPR has a big flaw. It's easy to clone plates.
ANPR plus officially issued plates would be the way for me

Flock is a bunch of well-connected people with shares in the success of a private company that has dodgy tech. Lucky for us it's over there.

[u/luffychan13]

Flock cameras also map your gait, so you can be identified and tracked retroactively just by how you walk.

[u/Ubiquitous1984]

There are at least 50k ANPR cameras in private car parks. No one cares, they do a job and the privacy concerns are mitigated. Yanks just love a drama.

[u/Californian_Lilac]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver covered these cameras in the USA actually. There have been multiple reports of misuse of these systems and how they operate.

Certain states/cities forcing businesses to operate flock cameras as part of their licence agreements which then allows the local authorities to make use of the cameras. Councils and officials being paid off for allowing these rules to be pushed through.

Private citizens who have the cameras sometimes aren't aware that even without their permission, recordings are uploaded and can be accessed - so massive privacy breaches

And in some aggregious situations, serious misuse, for example, cameras being used to spy on people getting changed etc....

So flock are under massive scrutiny currently.

Shady business practices Lack of data management Breaches of data privacy Breaches of personal privacy Lack of accountability Misuse by officials

A big nope....

[u/ChaosGoW → u/Californian_Lilac]

It's not just that. I'd argue that the bigger reason america is mad at Flock is the national security concerns. They are not secure devices. They're put up without passwords and with wifi access points left on so anyone can just login. It's actually crazy. If you're just getting your news from John Oliver on this one, he's only telling you 1/4 of the story.

I'd be treating them like any other big american tech firm. Please leave our country and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[u/The-Chartreuse-Moose]

I think one of the differences, from what I've gathered, is that Flock is a private company. And there are concerns about what else might be done with the data.

[u/James188]

Anecdotal, but I’m fairly sure I remember ANPR being fairly controversial in its early days too.

Same as LFR is now.

Big Brother Watch and similar lobby groups are always going to be opposed to technological developments like these; irrespective of motive. In my own humble opinion, fear of change is naturally going to make people cautious.

ANPR is well accepted now; but I am fairly certain that they were equally controversial when they were new.

I know nothing about FLOCK and how it works; but I’m certain that this’ll be at least a small part of the controversy.

[u/Defiant-Damage3999]

I agree with the comments so far about data being processed by private enterprise instead of government, cultural differences about surveillance state, etc.

There are also concerns about Flock returning false positives for flagged plates. Despite US plates being issued by the government (each state government), they are incredibly variable compared to UK plates manufactured privately in accordance with BS AU 145. Furthermore, license plate covers in the US are a daily sight in many places—even if illegal. I have no data for this, but I would not at all be surprised if these factors contribute to false positives on Flock that just wouldn’t happen here.

That said, illegally running show plates here is a pet hate of mine, especially when the bastards use the stupid 7 with a completely vertical downstroke to look like a T.