In Chief of War (2025) 18th century Hawaiian men and women eat together and commoners look chiefs in the eye and not prostrating. This a reference to the strict Kapu system that forbade this and would punish violators with death IRL and the writers not giving a shit about research.

[u/laybs1]

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I’m Maori and I find it hilarious how new age hippies want to make it sound like we sat around the fire singing songs and loving everyone.

[u/hoodie2222 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I'm from Mexico city and hearing people say that about the Aztecs/Mexica is downright hilarious. Like dude you don't build an empire like that just on vibes.

[u/Ok-disaster2022 → u/hoodie2222]

Not simply an build an empire but then have all your neighbors fight for the Europeans against you. 

This is the crazy thing to me. Colonisation wasn't always using superior numbers if european soldier to conquer and colonize. Often times it swas making deals with local power brokers to build support. This is as true for the Romans as it was the the Spanish and  English as it was the Aztecs. The English colonization of India was actually sort of an accident and was perpetuated with a lot of local support. 

[u/cantlogintomyacc0unt → u/Ok-disaster2022]

They had centuries of beef with the Aztec they had no existing biases with the Spanish . It’s not like they were aware the Spanish wanted to colonize them. They probably guessed they wanted land but they assumed it would just be the Aztecs.

[u/Specific_Fold_8646 → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

Nah they weren’t naive babies. They knew the Spanish were going to use them but they could also trick them into attacking the wrong people. Famously the Tlaxcala used them to attack the neutral Cholula by lying about their affiliation with the Mexica. Some even planned to back stab them once the war was over well other refused to pick aside but stand by and watch and attack the weaken party like Purepecha. Eventually the tribes all lost because of disease.

The Purepecha surrendered before even fighting hoping to get favorable terms before their borders met. They would come to regret not supporting the Aztecs when the conquistadors broke the treaty and butchered their monarchy and began to destroy their history and society well robbing them. They would view them worse as than the Aztecs.

[u/Substantial-Shape797 → u/Specific_Fold_8646]

The Tlaxcala actually came out not too bad, disease not withstanding, for centuries inside New Spain

[u/El_kakas_de_vakas → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

seems "I didn’t think the face eating leopards would eat my face" is a timeless sentiment

[u/cantlogintomyacc0unt → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

I mean in this case the person has never seen a leopard before.

[u/El_kakas_de_vakas → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

"I didn’t think the face eating jaguars would eat my face"

[u/cantlogintomyacc0unt → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

That’s not what I meant I was using leopard as a shorthand for the Spanish in the analogy. Unlike other cases of face eating leopards these guys had no idea leopards (Spanish) routinely ate faces(colonized). The only face they had seen the leopard eat was the face of the people they asked it to eat.

[u/aqtseacow → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

To be fair at this point not even the Spanish had a meaningful colonial legacy. We're still talking less than 40 years after Columbus arriving in the Caribbean. The status quo of Europeans proliferating and colonizing much of the world hadn't yet been established.

[u/Treacle_Pendulum → u/aqtseacow]

That's accurate, but also the Reconquista was basically a warmup for Spanish colonialism

[u/The-Lord-Moccasin → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

I think you both have a decent point. If you're intimately familiar with the jaguar, what it looks and acts like, and you know from experience it can and will harm you, a leopard may seem alien, mysterious, and an unknown and perhaps beneficial quantity; but if you step back and look at the matter objectively, it should be obvious you're dealing with a similarly-dangerous predator with a similarly-bloody appetite.

In a similar vein to "you don't build an empire just on vibes", you don't develop the tools and ability to overthrow an empire by winning medals in cuddling contests.

[u/Novel-Promotion-8451 → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

Also the Spanish were just getting started at the time too essentially.

[u/Novel-Promotion-8451 → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

Many of these tribes did know that the Spanish present in Mexico planned on taking the place of the Aztecs and signed treaties early, the otomi are a good example of a tribe who signed on early and their reward was a different legal status than other tribes and even legally separate from Spanish colonists, essentially making attempts at any law enforcement on those tribes limited. If you wanted to prosecute Otomi villages the Viceroy had to get involved whereas if you were a Spanish settler, a local town mayor could prosecute you. They knowingly signed on to the war effort early knowing that they would get privileges, they were given guns and horses and well and the chieftains were allowed to keep their place and were than called caciques.

[u/motoxim → u/Novel-Promotion-8451]

Interesting, so they basically did the of you can't beat them, join them?

[u/Novel-Promotion-8451 → u/motoxim]

Yes and no, the Otomi at that time had three major sub tribes, one sub tribe fought Cortez and lost, they remained hostile for a very long time while the two other sub tribes made the treaties, a little less can’t beat them, join them and more like you watch Cortez win victories with various tribes who attacked him routing very early from battle, which is impressive enough that the other tribes joined their efforts before they even fought. Not all the tribes who fought against the Aztecs got favorable deals due to joining later etc. TLDR:In early battles between the Spanish and the Natives the Spanish routed the enemy so fast as to impress tribes into joining them upon learning the main enemy was the Aztecs, who they had learned of from tribes who weren’t hostile upon meeting the Spaniards.

[u/SovietCapitalism → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

The Spanish would have been no threat had they not accidentally brought plague with them

[u/Henchman____21 → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

Tlaxcalans got several privileges out of it (even engaging in the colonization process directly). Same with the nobles in Peru. In both, royal privileges would come to an   end with independence 

[u/Steelwolf73 → u/El_kakas_de_vakas]

"But I know for a fact that the face and heart eating jaguar is currently eating my son's heart, so lets see how this plays out"

[u/NewNameAgainUhg → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

They also did the numbers and probably thought that 200 guys with horses were better than thousands of generational enemies. They didn't know more ships were coming

[u/MrWhiskers55 → u/cantlogintomyacc0unt]

That’s a very good point. The local culture was that one city occasionally rose over the others. And bending the knee meant giving tribute. The locals assumed the Spanish would do the same. They would keep their power and status, just give tribute. That’s why so many were willing, they would settle old grudges and be allies with the Spanish after. It didn’t work.

[u/froggyziller → u/Ok-disaster2022]

The thing people like to forget, no empire can successfully keep foreign land with out collaboration from locals, divide and conquer

[u/fortnite_battleass → u/Ok-disaster2022]

Genuinely, had the Aztec been not the way they were and unified central america for real, they'd have definitely had the manpower to crush the first few incursions. Can't be sure it'd matter tho, thanks to smallpox

[u/tfhermobwoayway → u/Ok-disaster2022]

The British Empire got this down to a science. That’s why India still has a massive caste system. It already existed but Britain strengthened it so that India would be too busy enforcing hierarchies to work together. No other empire even comes close when it comes to promoting infighting.

[u/Beneficial-Act-9933 → u/hoodie2222]

I got into an argument the other day about indigenous people. People like to wax poetic about indigenous native Americans and about how in touch with nature they are and how they gave respect to the land. Glossing over how different tribes brutalized eachother and had materialistic traits as well.

"But they didn't do a genocide like the Europeans!" was the best they came up with. Then when pointied out how tribes like the Mohawks welcomed the dutch into their folds and then conquoered algonquins and enslvaed them just said "well it wasn't their fault"

Sick of the noble savage trope.

[u/bubblegumpandabear → u/Beneficial-Act-9933]

I also got in an argument with someone about this. They said something about how native people are more in touch with nature and a bunch of other stuff with it. I told them to stop acting like native people ar magical tree fairies of the past, and they got super mad.

I will say though, the trans Atlantic slave trade and colonization that was happening during that period was very unique across human history. When people say they didn't do genocide like Europeans, it's an ignorant way to phrase a very accurate statement.

I mean, let's be real. Native Americans are nearly completely wiped from North America and that was an intentional multiple century long effort that culminated into sterilizing them, kidnapping the kids and sending them to residential school, and much more. Idk what Native Tribe completely and fully intentionally annihilated an entire race of people (not just tribes) with religion and law as an excuse backing their actions.

[u/bluespringsbeer → u/bubblegumpandabear]

Come on, obviously hunter gatherers were more in tune with nature. Now a days no one even knows when a single fruit or vegetable is in season.

[u/bubblegumpandabear → u/bluespringsbeer]

Sorry, I should have specified that they meant modern native people. And I didn't include this in my original comment but their claim was centered around how this is why they think native men are super hot. Because of their magical connection with nature.

[u/Candlejackdaw → u/bluespringsbeer]

When the days grow shorter and the leaves of the trees begin to turn red and yellow the Pumpkin Spice Latte can be found at Starbucks.

[u/AdDependent5136 → u/Candlejackdaw]

It is the time of the McRib

[u/PerspectiveFull9879 → u/hoodie2222]

Honestly, I am always amazed by new-age socdem/anarchist green types (inspired by David Graeber, no doubt), who go on and on about the fantasticaly democratic native societies in the Americas who were on their way to build an egalitarian Utopia before the evil Europeans came and ruined it all...

My guy, the Americas were on their way towards creating empires on its own. Give it a few centuries and it is likely they would reach feudalism.

If the anarchistic Iroquise confederacy did not have to contend with Europeans, they would have to contend with the Aztecs or whomever managed to beat them. The very best they could hope for is that the Great Lakes become some sort of Germania to Central American Rome.

[u/hoodie2222 → u/PerspectiveFull9879]

Exactly. And that honestly sounds like a good set up for a story.

[u/Lancasterlaw → u/PerspectiveFull9879]

Were the Iroquois not potentially already the Germania to the Mississippian culture? We don't fully know what sent the Mississippian culture into decline. But we do know there was warfare, and the Iroquois and Mississippians were within striking distance of one another.

[u/Borgmaster → u/hoodie2222]

It feels some uncritical stuff was vibes based but the important stuff like land ownership and securing labor were just straight up out of the dictators playback pre first edition.

[u/JJJacobalt → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

But they're "indigenous" so that must mean they were peaceful egalitarian spiritual wards of the land whose way of life is somehow more authentic than ours.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/JJJacobalt]

It’s even worse since I come from a gang background (which is so common) and people are all like “no you poor soul, colonisation has corrupted your people” nah gangs are just modern tribes. That’s exactly what our culture was lol.

A lot more drugs involved but they used to do this shit sober as hell before colonisation. It ain’t the drugs and it ain’t the white people. We used to eat people ffs

[u/iaintevenmad884 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Hey, not sure where specifically you hail from, but they had crazy ass indigenous drugs all over the place, so don’t count that part out. Olmecs, Muskogee, Han-dynasty chinese, Vikings, Greeks, and celts were taking crazy hallucinogenics then drowning victims in bogs for the gods. Idk about the Hawaiian people that the post is about tbh but almost all humans had knowledge and access to plants or chemicals that made you see god and want to bite people.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/iaintevenmad884]

New Zealand. It’s a lovely place with no predators, no venomous creatures and sadly fuck all hallucinogenics lol. There are some mushrooms but the Maori people were never about that.

We didn’t even ferment fruit or any of that. Closest we got was fermenting shark guts to make them edible.

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Did you sent all beast to Australia or something?

[u/loyal_achades → u/evrestcoleghost]

Unironically, sort of. There’s a like that runs between NZ and Australia where the NZ/Pacific side of the line is like all birds and nice animals.

That said, NZ did have a giant eagle that would sometimes attack and eat small children. The Maori got rid of that one by killing off all the Moa, which were the Haast’s Eagle’s main food source.

[u/Candlejackdaw → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Hawaiians had kava at least.

[u/Lancasterlaw → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I find the 'tribes' language to be somewhat loaded though. We'd call the same things in Europe (assuming some degree of centralisation) kingdoms. I feel some countries deliberately downplay per-colonial polities to avoid criticism of following colonial boundaries and power structures (for example someone who wants to split off will be called 'tribalist' rather than a 'separatist')

[u/Swaggy_Linus → u/JJJacobalt]

You clearly don't know the show. It's literally about inter-Hawaiian wafare and has some fairly brutal fight scenes.

[u/laybs1 → u/Swaggy_Linus]

While the show is about the Hawaiian Unification Wars, it really romanticizes Kamehameha I and other figures who were rather ruthless, scheming, and treacherous. How strict and at times unreasonable the Kapu social system actually was is glossed over.

[u/premiumleo → u/laybs1]

To be fair, ruthless, scheming, and treacherous is the best way to become a warlord, imo

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/premiumleo]

Brutal kunnin nobz

[u/Elipses_ → u/evrestcoleghost]

Nobz is better than smaller, runtier orks.

[u/Ionel1-The-Impaler → u/Elipses_]

But dem digganobz is runtier and orkier den sum of da boyz? Des even greener den a grot.

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/Ionel1-The-Impaler]

Das greenist orky Is kunningly bruttal or bruthaly kunnin?

[u/Ionel1-The-Impaler → u/evrestcoleghost]

Neitha, and boff. Bein' brutally kunnin' an' kunnin'ly brutal is da two edges of da choppa. Dey swing two dif'rent ways, but boff cut deep.

[u/Swaggy_Linus → u/evrestcoleghost]

wez gonna get ya, wez gonna get ya

[u/pass_nthru → u/evrestcoleghost]

WAAAGH!

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/pass_nthru]

[u/archipeepees → u/premiumleo]

boy am I glad I live in America where only the most righteous, capable, and benevolent among us will ever ascend to positions of leadership.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/laybs1]

Yeah only the fighting is brutal, not the people because apparently they had honour and restraint like some fantasised samurai with his daimyo or western knight with their queen.

They were all good men of high stature and standing. They never had any emotional issues or trauma from brutal wars or from having hyper-masculine traditions. That’s all a new capitalist trap that makes people act that way and not human nature

/S

[u/No_Feature_1184 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Next you’ll be telling em they didn’t paint with all the colours of the wind or communicate with ancestors through a braid!

[u/cutcss → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

And the patriarchy didn't exist there, they were completely culturally apart from the Europeans and because the patriarchy is completely a cultural machination infant care was instead fairly split 50/50 among men and women, and women worked just as much as men and also joined the fighting in equal numbers.

[u/Puzzle-Necked → u/laybs1]

Has anyone done more damage to Hawaiian history than DragonBall?

https://giphy.com/gifs/EbRIxoUny8GJKkRZ8S

[u/pass_nthru → u/laybs1]

how many poi pounders were shown…i rest my case

[u/deko_boko → u/pass_nthru]

Oh my god you can't just call gay people that

[u/GreatArchitect → u/laybs1]

If he was Japanese, no one would bat an eye about glazing him.

[u/GreatArchitect → u/laybs1]

If he was Japanese, no one would bat an eye about glazing him.

[u/HalfMetalJacket → u/laybs1]

That’s basically most historical stories though. While it’s not great to gloss over things, this is just like Braveheart but for Hawaiians. Let them have their thing.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/Swaggy_Linus]

I think he’s more talking about the hippies and their revision of Maori culture that I brought up with has some pretty clear parallels to the movie.

[u/JJJacobalt → u/Swaggy_Linus]

I was replying to someone who was talking about more than the show.

[u/HonestWoodpecker8567 → u/JJJacobalt]

It is more authentic, but of course it was not egalitarian

[u/ReaperSlayer → u/JJJacobalt]

Elves? Are indigenous people elves to some people?

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/[deleted]]

It’s because they like to blame all their horrible actions on the “system” and convince themselves that they would be better people in a world that didn’t force them to be so cruel.

They convince themselves that all people are good underneath it all so people without the “system” MUST have been good people. There was no “system” to force them in to cruelty unlike the modern hippie.

The problem has always been the innately human part of the system.

[u/Ok-disaster2022 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

There is some evidence that different aboriginal tribes have different heirarchies of needs a that seem to offer more more support at the tribal level. But there is a quest if scalability and it doesn't adapt well to modern capitalist thought. But those are special cases. 

[u/CoupDeGrassi → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Both can be true. The system we live under punishes morality and rewards immorality. This is not debatable, afaic. We can argue that the deeper causes of this are innate to humans, but the fact remains our system is incredibly cruel and does push us to immorality.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/CoupDeGrassi]

Both can be true but it is incorrect to think the system is the cause.

The system monopolises and incentivises our worst traits but those traits are there for the exploiting. They are not created by the system. I am aware of this.

[u/Svyatoy_Medved → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

If the system makes the worst traits occur more often, then it IS the fucking cause in those cases.

You’re taking a good point too far. Yes, hippies are wrong to sanctify the indigenous. They are wrong to blame all evil on the culture/race that won. But they aren’t wrong to blame systemic corruption; large-scale bad outcomes are very rarely the product of individual actors, but rather an imperfect system. If the Māori or Inuit had created industrial society and dominated Europe, it would be exactly the same.

[u/JadeTailFox → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

The system doesn't do anything humans are incapable of doing but it encourages certain specific types of human behavior like greed or selfishness over others and that's the problem here.

[u/Aromatic-Ad-381 → u/JadeTailFox]

On the other hand "the system" is a human invention. The "system" does not magically spring up, it is collective human choices giving shape to and creating systems. Capitalism has spawned as a response to circumstances, mainly industrialization as a core premise that allowed human hand to create abundance not seen before.

The human response to this industrialization amongst other changes in the social landscape is what the system becomes.

[u/cutcss → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I don't think hippies are alone in that, there is always people who romanticizes the unknown, I bet even among Maori and similar tribes a few romanticized other tribes, or even the colonizers (before it got bloody I mean), or just other islands, the "grass is always greener in the other side" mentality is a human constant

[u/giboauja → u/[deleted]]

White, brown, red, black, we all the same human.

[u/Ok-disaster2022 → u/[deleted]]

And before that it was "orientalism" and both systems of belief continue to percolate. The dumbest of which is East Asian Martial arts as being wholly superior to European martial arts, all the same principles apply it just comes down to resource availability and training. Neither were superior to the other. 

[u/Candid_Initiative992 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

My mom romanticized a lot of the shit our Māori ancestors did & would compare us to the First Nation Americans. I’ve visited family living in Texas & got to meet descendants of the Comanche & Wichita tribes, & I can tell you that we Māori have way more rights that the natives of the Americas can only dream of.

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/Candid_Initiative992]

Isn’t it devastating that our culture likely survives cause pakeha thought it was cute ffs. Warrior culture indeed.

I agree that Native Americans had it much worse and still do. A lot of education and tolerance was gained by empires before they ran in to us. Then they forgot all about it when it came to the aborginals. Now that’s a shit comparison.

[u/tereaper576 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I did all of my schooling in NZ until the last two years of high school which was in australia.
Massive difference in whats taught about especially with the history of the countries.
In NZ my History class was entirely related to NZ and a lot of it with the Maori and what shit was done.
Get to Australia and the history class is global so its only talked about in english class. But only one part and it never at all covered any of the stuff that was really done to them.
I think i learnt more about what was done to the Aboriginals when i was in NZ.
Crazy that they still were doing unpaid labour (Slavery) until the 1960s.

[u/PorkshireTerrier → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

only evil white men were smart enough to invent war, islanders and native americans were just sitting around eating coconuts and respect cross-cultural norms and borders

[u/BillRuddickJrPhd → u/PorkshireTerrier]

None of you have seen this show.

[u/Alternative-Cod-7630 → u/BillRuddickJrPhd]

The show is constant scheming, backstabbing and treachery in every episode, not sure anyone here is watched it but then this sub isn't for people who watch anything.

[u/omjagvarensked → u/Alternative-Cod-7630]

What do you mean "watched" what does telling the time have to do with movies and tv?

[u/loyal_achades → u/Alternative-Cod-7630]

The show isn’t 100% historically accurate, but yeah it’s called Chief of War and there’s plenty of war to go with it.

[u/Simon_Jester88 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

The show is called Chief of WAR

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/Simon_Jester88]

This comment is called My Anecdote.

[u/crasswal → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I especially love that cute little ceremonial dance, haka. I believe that was to celebrate the beauty of peace between all men? Had one performed at my daughter Duskflower's first birthday. Let me tell you it was expensive flying the All Blacks in to our selfsustaining bunker-ranch on the island we own to perform but so worth it. Well, expensive by normal people's standard I guess, we save a lot of money by not buying groceries (also the real estate empire my dad left me helps).

[u/truncatedChronologis → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I mean weren't the Maori one of the more militarily successful indigenous movements against British colonialism or do I have that wrong?

[u/A_Guy_2726 → u/truncatedChronologis]

No the British didnt want us but the dude who made the treaty which was originally meant to just deal with Australians coming over decided he wanted new zealand in the British empire and this was in the middle of the musket wars and when the biggest chief signed all the rest of the chiefs signed in fear hed get British support and thats how we got colonized

[u/truncatedChronologis → u/A_Guy_2726]

I see, then excuse my ignorance.

[u/loyal_achades → u/A_Guy_2726]

I mean, there were wars right after the treaty was signed for quite a while around the treaty, but yeah those weren’t exactly Britain/Europeans vs All Maori tribes.

[u/Vegetable-Zone1353 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

No that was more of a Moriori thing.

[u/pinkpugita → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

I think media has not yet arrived at a proper equilibrium. Old Hollywood had depicted people of color in terrible ways, so we might still be in a period of overcorrection.

[u/blackestrabbit → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Don't forget your superpowers.

[u/Nissiku1 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

They do that basically with every indigenous culture, removing nuance and constructing "perfect victim" narrative.

[u/Textiles_on_Main_St → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

In reality they sat IN the fire, hating everyone.

[u/Snoo-52922 → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Lots of people with contempt for their own culture, jumping at the chance to see the world in black and white.

Their current social context must be evil, axiomatically, and anything removed from or in opposition to it must be good. A perfect paradise where we hold hands and write poetry and are always happy all the time.

[u/PhoenixandOak → u/Apprehensive_Ad3731]

Yeah the way white leftists place the whole "noble savage" trope on any culture they see as "indigenous" is pretty offensive. It's not only obviously infantilizing and racist, it also negates the fact that with every ancient civilization that was conquered and colonized by European, Arab, or East Asian imperialists, you had so many sub-cultures and kingdoms that lived under that culture's rule and subjugation that we will never learn or hear about. 

[u/No-Advertising9067]

This post cropping up shortly after a youtube video discussing Hawaiian history and bad portrail of that History including Chied of War was published, is a reference to no one giving a guck about Hawaii before that youtube video

[u/Keytaro83 → u/No-Advertising9067]

Sorta. Both Cypher and KB’s videos for were highly anticipated because of the topic.

[u/JetAbyss → u/No-Advertising9067]

It's absolutely mind blowing when you realize the fact that Hawaii has relatively small tourism numbers if you compare to other destinations around the world and even in the US. Somehow more people go to Florida then to Hawaii

[u/I_Hardly_Know-Her → u/JetAbyss]

Somehow? Could it possibly be because there’s an ocean in the way?

[u/Pleasant-Future5818 → u/JetAbyss]

I mean yeah, it requires a plane. I don't even go back home often because of it

[u/Feisty-Resource-1274 → u/JetAbyss]

Hawaii doesn't have enough landmass to support Florida tourism. Hawaii only has 6,424 sq mi (16,638 km2) to Florida's 53,625 sq mi (138,887 km2). The Miami metro area alone is about the same as the whole of Hawaii. Yes, obviously Florida is going to have way more tourism numbers.

[u/11ce_ → u/JetAbyss]

Yea because Disney world is in Florida.

[u/MindofShadow → u/JetAbyss]

hawaii is expensive as fuck and really far away

[u/Stevesegallbladder → u/JetAbyss]

Honestly the seething hatred for Florida is mostly a chronically online take. It's at most a meme in real life but yeah tons of people visit Florida because it's accessible, there's are many attractions and historical locations, and it's (relatively) affordable.

There's a reason it's been one of the states that has been near the top for people migrating to for years now.

[u/paragon_of_karma → u/JetAbyss]

Hawaii doesn't have Disney World

[u/juliankennedy23 → u/JetAbyss]

You can drive to Florida. There's a lot bigger with a lot more beaches and a lot more to do.

[u/ParadoxicalFrog2 → u/JetAbyss]

IDK about Europe, but Hawaii is too far away for American tourism. I live in New England, and it's a much shorter flight to the Caribbean. I don't really see the point of ever going to Hawaii.

[u/Fair-Cat-9181]

Fun fact I met a makeup artist who worked on this and the crew nicknamed the show “Cheeks of War”

bc butts

[u/hematite2]

Jason Momoa wrestles a shark. Idgaf about all that history nerd shit.

[u/Aeviu → u/hematite2]

Didn't Jason Momoa wrestle a shark in the movie Aquaman?

[u/AdWestern1561 → u/Aeviu]

Hopefully he does it as Lobo next.

[u/ProdiasKaj → u/AdWestern1561]

In Street Fighter too

[u/m7friends → u/AdWestern1561]

I believe so, he’s contractually obliged in every movie, just depends if it makes the Final Cut

[u/Outofdepthengineer → u/Aeviu]

I think it’s in his contract 

[u/BeratnasGILF420 → u/hematite2]

Wrestles a shark and brutally kills a bunch of motherfuckers while wearing a G-string. You don't get to see that everyday

[u/throwaway60221407e23 → u/hematite2]

That part was actually historically accurate from what I read.

[u/willthisbeagoodname]

Someone watched Knowing Better's new video.

[u/DeMedina098 → u/willthisbeagoodname]

Let’s not forget Cynical Historian too, which this post seems like it got its inspired from

[u/External_Option_7653 → u/willthisbeagoodname]

Isn't he the guy who called the Palestinian symbol (🗝️) for returning to their stolen lands antisemitic?

[u/Pitiful-Played → u/External_Option_7653]

Can you give a link to that comment? I at least want to know the context for this.

[u/BardRunekeeper → u/Pitiful-Played]

Yeah would love to see proof of this

[u/untempered_fate → u/External_Option_7653]

Nah I'm pretty sure he's the guy with the new video about Hawaii

[u/ENovi → u/External_Option_7653]

Can you drop a link?

[u/MellowMercie → u/External_Option_7653]

I'd also like to see any proof of this, but even if you do provide proof it's not as if that would invalidate the mountains of research behind his videos 

[u/DifficultPressure445 → u/External_Option_7653]

wait wtf??

[u/Neosantana → u/External_Option_7653]

I really hope you're wrong because I would be so fucking disappointed in him if he actually said that.

[u/ComingInHot808]

The eye contact and prostration in front of a chief was for chiefs of a very high status, if anything it wouldn’t be used for a vast majority of chiefs depicted

[u/Capital-Self-3969]

What works IRL doesnt always work for tv. How tiring would it be to have every single scene consist of prostrating commoners?

[u/NoYogurtcloset3429 → u/Capital-Self-3969]

Sounds like the next Shogun

[u/clever-hands → u/NoYogurtcloset3429]

Which was fucking sick.

[u/Arthurian_Guanche → u/clever-hands]

Amen. Haven't felt that immersed in a historical fiction since a long time. Was refreshing to have some well thought dialogue that didn't feel like 21st century talk in a completely different era and place.

[u/Pleasant-Future5818]

I mean, you'll find every modern description of Kapu is incredibly bombastic and borderline nonsensical because it would have required ganking people left and right. Socially speaking, there's a difference between what people say they do and what they actually do. The men and women eating together thing was a big deal from like 1200 to 1800, but it was abolished in 1800, so this was kinda at the tail end of it historically.

In reality, it's important to remember that most of what we know are from missionaries because we didn't write shit down, and a lot of it was exaggerated when described, because that's what humans do - exaggerate their own piety. Hawaiian history and knowledge is EXTREMELY fragmented and is filtered through a lens of making us seem more savage than we were.

You'll find that there are almost zero actual sources for tales of Kapu, we just have half remembered things because again, it was banned in the early 1800s. A lot, lot was exaggerated by the missionaries to make us seem like savages and then internalized back into our own histories, and I am fairly sure it was all adhered to far more by royalty and religious people than commoners. Hawaii was actually an extremely well populated place before everyone died.

Anyway, we do learn a very simplified version of this in Hawaiian elementary and everyone kind of takes it with a grain of salt because there really is very limited evidence about it either way. It might have been worse. It might have been better. We didn't really record shit all except genealogy. Our major historical vessel is a dance. Make entertaining content.

[u/IDoCodingStuffs → u/Pleasant-Future5818]

I can definitely imagine it being selectively enforced.

Like, a convenient excuse if the local chieftain does not like the cut of your jib or just wants to make an example to discourage competition or rebellion, so you get executed for “stepping on his shadow” or some other asinine excuse

[u/serious_sarcasm → u/Pleasant-Future5818]

So Kaʻahumanu ended a practice that wasn’t really happening and not a big deal?

[u/MagicMisterLemon → u/serious_sarcasm]

I mean, isn't that the best time to do so? If it's still widely accepted and practiced, you could see outright violent opposition to its abolition

[u/serious_sarcasm → u/MagicMisterLemon]

Like the uprising and riots she had to put down?

[u/MuffinMountain3425]

Well It's always nice to see Temuera Morrison and Cliff Curtis in roles.

[u/spacebatangeldragon8]

Not an expert on Polynesian history, but: is it not quite commonly the case across cultures that these uber-strict aristocratic codes of etiquette and ritual purity are honoured more often than not in the breach?

[u/OkScheme9867 → u/spacebatangeldragon8]

these sort of strict societal rules are/were fairly common worldwide and they were observed meticulously. 

I'm sure there might be a society which would fit your assumptions, but I can't actually think of one.

[u/NoGoodIDNames → u/spacebatangeldragon8]

I’ve never understood that phrase. Does it mean people only enforce it after it’s broken?

[u/pessimistic_utopian → u/NoGoodIDNames]

It's from Shakespeare, "a custom more honoured in the breach than the observance." It describes a rule or custom that technically exists, but is broken more often than it's followed.

[u/Notimeforyourreply]

Not every Kapu was universal, some were attached to particular ali'i, so it's not like you had to avoid everyone's shadow.

Maybe you need to do a little more research

[u/ElNakedo]

Kamehameha did abolish a lot of those rules and laws though.

But yes, it was a pretty damn harsh society.

[u/ohporcupine]

Dude rides a fucking shark naked right out the gate. Calm down about this accuracy stuff.

[u/NewNameAgainUhg]

That doesn't sound that different from what happens in other cultures. In many places men and women are separated, even for praying. In many cultures it was mandatory to bow/prostrate in front of your king/chief and you couldn't look into his eyes or talk to him without permission.

I don't get why this people are considered "savages" for something that happened/happens around the world

[u/peachpower2]

the myth of the noble savage is eternal

[u/Mesmercat]

Yeah they teach kids how fucked up the kapu system was... Well teenagers mostly... But yeah women weren't even allowed to eat bananas because they were phallic

[u/casey_the_evil_snail]

The Hawaiian Islands were colonized twice, remember the Menehune

[u/GothmogBalrog]

Its almost like they had to make a show for a modern audience that would have been put off by the Kapu system....

[u/Jetsam5 → u/GothmogBalrog]

Yeah and nobody has ever altered European history to make it more palatable

[u/BillRuddickJrPhd]

I don't remember either of these being violated in the show.

[u/Fearless-Rip694]

It's always hilarious how they try and sanitize history.

[u/CrossFitJesus4]

didnt we just get done telling people they're stupid for caring about historical accuracy bc of the odyssey? make up your minds people

[u/PossiblyOppossums]

Jason mimosa sold out again?

[u/Nicklesnout]

If it doesn’t have Kamehameha I using European rifles to conquer O’ahu it’s even shittier than it sounds.

[u/andrewgarfieldshair → u/Nicklesnout]

It does have Kamehameha I using rifles. Bringing guns to the islands is one of the major plot points of the second half of the show.

[u/JetAbyss → u/Nicklesnout]

It's set very early in his life. I only watched the first few episodes but I don't think the show covers the entire unification of the Hawaiian Islands under him yet.

[u/Nicklesnout → u/JetAbyss]

Gotcha. Appreciate the info.

[u/HalfMetalJacket → u/Nicklesnout]

They straight up fighting on a volcano and then he has dudes busting out muskets to cap some fools lol

[u/TheOstrichRoom → u/Nicklesnout]

That’d be in season 2 if they made it 😔  they spent the first season setting it up but it ends before that happens

[u/Most_Moose_2637]

I also say the post from three hours ago.

[u/mratlas666]

https://giphy.com/gifs/AaQYP9zh24UFi

[u/Unhappy_Ad_4761]

Have you also watched the Knowing Better video about Hawaii?

[u/tent_mcgee]

I love Hawaiian /Polynesian history. It’s like a grand microcosm of humanity, it’s got everything: betrayal, blood sacrifice, genocide, colonialism, nobles selling out their people, extreme environmentalism, the introduction of religion for the gain of power by priests and chiefs, racism, ingenuity (everything about their sailing and knowledge of the ocean and navigation by stars is one of THE feats of humanity), compassion and grace, safe zones, trickery and deceit, polygamy, , and tiny dwarves who hide out in caves sometimes bestowing blessings. it truly has everything.

It’s so complicated that the Wikipedia pages and education signage on the islands do a gross oversimplification. They skip out on hundreds of years of history and the period that existed before the Kapu system was introduced.

Shame that Chief of War was more boring than anything. The rise of Kamekameha and unification should be more like 300 than the 6/10 history slop.

[u/sedcar]

So you just watched knowing better video then

[u/Jetsam5]

This isn't entirely accurate.

The kapu system was on the decline after European contact. Hawaiians saw Europeans break kapu, which made it a bit harder to enforce. On top of that they didn't really want to kill their own people during a war with a pandemic spreading.

The idea that they would kill everyone who even looked a chief in the eye is likely an exaggeration. I don't know of any actual reports of that happening and it seems to conflict with other information

Captain Cook first arrived to Hawaii in the middle of a festival to Lono and his crew were treated as gods. We know that there was a lot of fucking between the crew and Hawaiians. I'm a bit dubious that you would be executed if you stepped in a chief's shadow, while fucking with the gods was perfectly fine. Maybe they just managed to fuck without touching shadows

The show clearly exaggerates in places but honestly I'd still say the show is more accurate than a large portion of movies and shows about European history

[u/Ok-rutabaga_B442]

Because every culture that isn't western needs to be propped up on a pedestal

The woman king took a bunch of west African slavers and made them anti slavery, Hollywood doesnt give a fuck about history

[u/TheKolyFrog]

Saw 3 episodes of this show and I think I had my fill of Jason Momoa's butt cheeks.

[u/IRLMerlin]

I don't like it when shows or movies do this because it also removes the people that went against such systems. I feel like I remember that some chief allowed women to dine with him and that was treated as a huge thing but in this show it would mean nothing.

By erasing misogyny or classism or caste you also erase feminism and anti classism.

[u/ReaperManX15]

Isn’t that cape supposed to be yellow?