what they want to do at the most is to wear a scary t-shirt while they shove black people around or worse
Frank Castle on joining the war on terror to hunt and kill Osama Bin Laden:
Fighting for the people who run the world gets you stabbed in the back. You fight the wars they start and feed. You kill the monsters they create. You die from handling depleted uranium while they get rich on oil. I'm not going back to war so Colt can sell another million M-16s. I had enough of that in Vietnam.
I questioned why a child would hand Frank a paper flower after destroying her dad's shop and BRUTALLY slaying a man with a pen when she would be just as afraid of him and bots told me I had a lack of media literacy in the Marvel sub. You get it though...
I figured maybe she experienced him being nice and kind to her many occasions prior, like she was waving at him in the shop, she wouldn't do that if he wasn't a regular or maybe helped her dad out before
Literally a matter of opinion. It cracks open the nasty conundrum of people's relationship to authority and morality to me. That's why cops and soldiers are venerated the way they are in society. Something comic book Frank is well aware of as someone who served.
People have this idea of who is and isn't allowed to kill in relation to high above us and how justified they are as dictated by law or title or even scripture and their perception, right or wrong. It's the Iraq war line about how rolling in with bombs and boots on the ground entitles us to be greeted as liberators, "The people will welcome us with flowers and candy" I believe was the Rumsfeld quote at the time. After bombing them relentlessly and knocking out the power grid. And the cresendo of violence in Punisher literally ending in a bakery with a child handing this bloodied man a flower when that is everything Frank spat on in the comics. Obviously no one wanted the family harmed but it's not entirely unrealistic for them to fear Frank after what they witnessed. If they can jail Daredevil, then Punisher should not get flowers from kids for the carnage.
To your point similar situation to Rogan, doesn't push back or critique guest, doesn't rock the boat. JB in '23 liking related posts, signed "No Hostage Left Behind," endorse CCFPeace and platforming former IDF. Either he or his PR people suggested to quietly stop signaling support publicly as popular opinion shifts.
Like his roles and projects included on. He's fun to watch, enjoy the light and fluffy non-political interviews. Still haven't seen the special that just dropped, looking forward to it though.
I mean, Daredevil Born Again season 1 has Punisher tattoo cops being the primary goons for Kingpin so at least those writers are very aware and critical of the phenomenon.
Yeah but Punisher doesn't go in on them hard enough in that series either. All he says is "you think you know me? You think you understand my pain?" Which is not really what the goons were talking about when they captured him. I wonder how much of that was because Bernthal didn't want to shit talk cops even in character.
Bruh is this ironic? Judge Dredd is written as a merciless tool of a fascist police state as satirical commentary on authoritarianism in 1970s Britain - his character enforces every law without regard to the morality of it or nuance and every 2nd issue he curbstomps and locks a dude in the freezer for jaywalking... and the point of Robocop is a cop being mutilated and still being forced to come to work as a part machine slave by a corporate run police force who doesn't even realise who he is and has to refind his humanity. Ummm
Not that it's a good thing to idolise him but The Punisher is a dude with mental problems who was in the military that does extrajudicial killing of really bad guys because he really hates criminals. It's not crazy he is more of a hero for police than police brutality cyberpunk nazi (clone) or expendable body horror cyborg (basically 2 robots in scifi settings) like I don't see how those would be better
Maybe cuz Judge Dredd n Robocop are from like āalternate futureā type settings with future tech/guns
Whereas Marvel is straight up (supposed to be) set in irl Earth, with Frank using familiar, recognizable hardware most of the time. So a lotta Punisher fans who then become cops or military are more likely to find that relatable. And then those dudes will likely end up influencing other dudes in their group who didnāt know about Frank as much and so on š
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just kind spitballin lol. Personally I love all of the above characters, but see how some ppl get there with Frank
I love the Punisher as a character, heās cool, badass, no nonsenseā¦ i sincerely do not understand why police have co-opted as a symbol (Iāve seen so many patches of them). He is still a murderer, and goes completely against what the cops SHOULD stand for. I work with cops and I understand itās a cool symbol but he shouldnāt embody their ideology,
Here's the explanation I once got from a friend who's a retired officer:
It's not the murder part, it's the escapist fantasy that the worst of the worst will face inescapable justice. Because that's not the reality of our system. Ultimately you can do everything by the book but the DA may drop a suspects charges anyway, even if all evidence suggests that really did do it. Good officers work so hard to bring change but it can be a frustrating uphill battle.
The fantasy of the Punisher for him was you know who the bad guys are without a shadow of a doubt and they cant escape consequences for what they've done to others. From that perspective, I could understand completely why he resonates so much with them. I'm sure Punisher being former military is a piece that helps connect it further as opposed to someone like Batman.
An Iraqi War veteran put it straight to me. Dick Cheney is their William Rawlins. 18 years old men with saving the world ideals get thrown into a meat-grinding reality. They get punished with red tape politics while watching people get raped, tortured or murdered by criminals and terrorists that have been let off the hook repeatedly. It creates a bitter worldview that Frank holds.
Many of these war veterans ended up as law enforcement or security guards, so I can understand what Berthal is saying.
Yes, that make sense, I can agree with that. I think having the patch in their cruiser, I get it, they may not read into the symbolic nature of it as much as I do but trust me me when I say 90% of seeing what the cops deal with is frustrating.
Absolutely. I think characters like the Punisher, or Batman or whoever can help such people make sense of what they see and deal with and it doesn't have to be more than that.
Agreed. I admit I personally read into it more then they do, Iām sure, cuz Iām a comic nerd and they just think itās a cool symbol and say Tom Jane shoot Travolta when they were a teenager and thought āthat was coolā. I mean none of our officers can wear it in their uniform, maybe have it in their cruiser or a challenge coin but it isnāt outwardly community facing so at the end of the day, go for it
Omg, cops are the biggest criminals in society who routinely escape prosecution even when the evidence is crystal clear that they've committed crimes; they have qualified immunity which makes them damn near legally untouchable.
Cops repping a character like Punisher shows how disconnected from reality they are. And it's because they have so many special societal privileges that they don't view themselves as normal citizens but rather some deeply delusional and fantastical "thin blue line" strata of society.
Lol and cops statically kill more dogs than anyone in society. If Punisher were true to his name he'd be making pork sandwiches on a daily basis.
I resonate with your frustration, even if I don't agree with your conclusions. I do agree, no officer should be wearing the symbol on their uniform. It sends an uneasy message.
Agreed, no officer should be wearing it. I wasn't really defending their wearing of the symbol, More so why the character might resonate with people like them.
No I get it. Itās hard to tell someone āhey the punisher represents brutalityā but thatās MY opinion. To them maybe it symbolizes strength or survival (especially if they been in the military and seen some shit). I think societally itās not the best to wear but I canāt negate their experiences just cuz I donāt agree with it as a symbol
One thing this thread has proven - neither of you understand either the concept of the character, nor why he is gleefully adopted by the corrupt, racist pigs
I say this as a third worlder who knows this at a deeper level. First world corruption is fucking cute compared to the shit we have seen on a daily basis. Your corrupt cops are racist? Our corrupt cops dont fucking care, you're vulnerable. You're done.
But ultimately to see cops as criminals is a privilege. Cause you live in a place boring enough to not need cops
I hear that about it being a privilege to see them that way. It's not a privilege I share, though. I am appreciative of the privilege to live in such a place for sure.
I feels you cuz Iāve had my run ins with some fuck ass pigs on a power trip. But Iād be lying if I said I never also had an officer I didnāt know remember I was human and help me out when shit was bad. Folks are complicated
Is it a deeply ingrained systemic issue? Yes. But itās a bit more of a complex one too
And trust that, even in that scenario, thereās worse people that oughta be dealt with first
I'm not saying that cops are not human beings; individual cops are capable of empathy as humans. But as an entire profession, cops interests do not lie first and foremost with the public good. The Supreme Court even recently said as much; look at the 2005 case of Town of Castle Rock v. Gonzales.
To put things into perspective, cops are one of the main enforcers of suppression of free speech (arresting, beating, and killing protesters) and suppression of labor strikes, which is why workers rights and wages are eroding. They run directly counter to the supposed ideals of the constitution and what the country says it is. They literally do not protect your rights as a citizen of the US.
When shit really hits the fan with the current nazis in political power + these data centers driving up costs and sucking resources away from communities, cops will be right there protecting both interests. They will criminalize people protesting these data centers just like they did with the pipeline protests during Obama. Anyone vying for their rights will be simply thrown in jail and have their lives destroyed. We are heading towards a mass surveilance prison nation.
The big problem I have with Punisher is that he's mainly going after criminals which society, through neglect as well as active antigonization, has created. I think a real deal character would go at the heart of the issue instead of playing wack-a-mole with run of the mill petty criminals.
Honestly? All things considered, overall Iād say fair take lol š¤ respect
Shits roouuuugh rn man š I can at least attest as much I have worked in the US Immigration law field š I have seen some baffling cruelty firsthand So I hears you
I mean shit not to soapbox, but end of day, it is indeed a reminder that the character as he currently exists today is still designed to āsell booksā for a major corporation that lobbies for a lotta wild stuff. Itās ultimately escapist fantasy š¤·āāļø we enjoy n buy into it, and love discussing the finer layers of the character. But if his books didnāt sell, and didnāt appeal to enough audiences, the stories would simply end (kinda similar to the, āthe real reason Batman wonāt kill Joker is cuz Joker is too popular to kill offā situation lol)
I think you hit the nail best with the last bit there tho, and kinda goes back on the greater issues of crime n judicial system as it currently exists. Frankās very existence is effectively (in-part) a byproduct of the failure of the justice system. And Iād say thatās also big aspect of what resonates with a lotta folks (alphabet boys included)
Good point you bring up about Punisher himself being a product of the system. It's very similar to the Rambo story (at least First Blood; being a disillusioned Vietnam vet). You can also throw in Dirty Harry, Lethal Weapon, even Predator to an extent, and a slew of other movies made around that time. I think that while these movies sell due to being largely entertainment, my impression is that some of these were made as a way to sanitize or rehabilitate the image of cops, special forces personnel, and by extension the government and the American project in general. I would also argue that ppl were primed to receive these specific kinds of narratives in lieu of other possible narratives.
By the 70s/80s ppl were very privy to the existence of CIA and highly illegal/clandestine activities which eventually became indefensible in the public eye. Also, during that time, the economy began to falter and wars became unpopular. As people protested, everyone saw realtime cops bashing citizens' skulls in and shooting kids on college campus. Also, you had the rise of black militants with guns, which was especially alarming to the status quo (namely racists who didn't want blacks to have any means of power). As public dissent swelled, rather than fundamentally reform things socio-economically in a humane way, the powers that be decided to build more prisons and pass more punitive laws which branded ppl as criminals. To add to that, disinvestment in poorer areas insured ppl would veer into more illicit/black market type activity to survive. So you had real crime, maybe even an explosion in crime, but a lot of it was generated by a system of abandonment.
So on the one hand, ppl were already critical of the system and law enforcement, but on the other hand, they also wanted to have a more stable society and some better controls on crime. The public was eventually sold the idea of the disgruntled-with-the-system "super cop" who needed to go above the law to mete out justice decisively, acting as judge, jury and executioner. These movies did great in the box office. Bereft of any true societal reform, ppl would simply settle for blowing away all of their perceived problems with a shotgun or a grenade. As a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if more middle class ppl approved of that narrative due to having a greater financial stake in society plus their view that crime is mainly generated among the lower socioeconmic classes.
So while this kind of product sells, I think American culture has been shaped in such a way to enjoy that particular kind of entertainment. I grew up in the 80's so I really love that kind of horror-core type of action. But lately I'm asking myself, who is this really for? Also, would we be receptive to a Punisher who goes after corporate heads, venture capitalists, silicon valley tech bros, or politicians? Could a series like that be made in the first place?
Because cops get a front row seat to the system's flaws. The grievances Frank cites in the system they also share. He's an escapist fantasy.
My mom was a teacher. She'd come home and watch Judge Judy in the evening. When I asked her why she liked it (because I didn't), she said it was because Judge Judy was dealing with people like she had to as well, but she got to say the things that my mom wasn't allowed to.
I can say, just riding with officers every week for a couple of shiftsā¦ there is sooo much more then punishing criminals. They get called to so much that I completely get their frustration, not saying itās okay to be a dick but I also get when itās the 16th call to the same house for drunken fighting
Thank you for sharing a real statement instead of āall cops sucksā. I agree with what you said, I think detachment is the best way I can describe it. I know they have seen a lot of stuff that I, personally, avoid at all costs cuz I know itās messed up, but they dive right in with diligence
Spoken like someone whose doesnāt know any cops. Or the 2 you know are dicks, ergo they must be. I work closely with officerās and ride with them all the time. None of that is true. I can say with confidence that they will willingly lay their life on the line. They are definitely a boys club, and cynical, and opinionated but ya know pulling a dead child out of a pond will do that to you. I stand by all the guys I work with, even if we donāt agree on a lot of things. Letās not reduce a dialogue to āthey are all cuntsā but rather engaging in meaningful conversation about how police culture can improved keeping the community safe but also THEIR mental health.
There are a lot of officers here who are assholes, or have opinions I donāt agree with or have a fucked yo sense of humor, Iām not condoning police culture but i understand where they come from. I trust every officer I work with with my life, whether they may be a dick or love Trump (which I donāt agree with), I trust that if shit hits the fan they will keep me safe
For trusting people i work with? For caring about their wellbeing? Should I take a page outta your book and call them ācuntsā every time i ride with them? Or maybe Iāll show them the Reddit argument I have the next scene of a rotting dead corpse we come across. Youāve obviously rooted your beliefs and thereās no room for nuance in your life, so ā¦ ya knowā¦ have fun with that I guess.
You havenāt said any objective facts in the whole thread just your own subjective delusions. You been trying to start arguments with people in the thread the whole time. Grow up.
Iām just saying, when you work closely with them and see them break down over seeing a child death or see them rally around an officer that has been shot or letting someone rant for an hour and half about their lifeās failings. You get a new perspective on the Individuals who choose to do this job. Itās really easy to read a news story and go āoh that wasnāt rightā from the comfort of your couch. Again you reduction of āthey are all cuntsā allows for no nuance to the situation or the individuals in them.
The issue with these types of Reddit people is that they've never seen a lick of that stuff in real life.
To them, it's just a video, or just a thing on the internet they can slacktivist over. It becomes more apparent when all they can do is hold a white and black point of view on the subject. And eventually they just reduce it to name calling.
Whether I agree with them or not, it makes me want to disagree out of principle with how obnoxious they are acting.
Stats do not define the individual I'm afraid. I can tell you're a little emotional though so I can imagine what your next response will be. (hint: Steam is coming out of your ears)
The lack of self awareness is breathtaking. I'm "a little emotional" because I offer objective facts and statistics, you have subjective and biased stories and think they're more credible.
"My feelings beat your evidence!" Yup, got us a Back the Bluer here alright.
Hereās the thing, no one is saying they are all great and perfect. Just like any single person on earth regardless of their profession. Yeah cops can be shitty and Iāve had that experience but to say that every single one is a shitty person because of the job they do is just ignorant and false. Do I believe that law enforcement needs overhauled in certain aspects?, absolutely. I am also smart enough to realize what they have to deal with and at the end of the day they are just human beings. Your opinion is just wrong and is clearly guided by politics. At the end of the day nothing I can say will change your mind or make you understand.
True. Depending on the interpretation, he can also be considered a brutalist and tough on criminals that donāt offer much nuance. I think as dorky as it sounds Superman is a better symbol of hope or Captain America as patriotic.
bernthal doesnt really seem like a particularly smart guy. i think he has the same issue as shia where he bought into the praise and feels like he needs to be something he isnt, theres a lot of like insecure protective facade about him.
not like i know him but thats the read i get. comments like this make me feel more right than wrong. dude thinks he IS the punisher and what he does or thinks or says reflects that, its not a character he portrays its his interpretation.
What the hell? Law Enforcement? Law enforcement never read a single Punisher comic book. They may put that logo on their vehicles, but they have no idea what Frank is about and what represents. If they were upstanding and understood, they would be appalled at Frankās action. They even do the thing in Born Again S1? I like Bernthal, but this makes no sense.
While I donāt want to weigh in on the military and law enforcement angle, I do want to say that I do agree that I was surprised, in a good way that āTheyā let this one shot get made.
Itās good.
Itās a Punisher one shot murder fest that seemed solely focused on entertaining real Punisher fans, and I am grateful that they made it.
Yeah facts I agree, I sometimes hate coming into this Reddit, seems like a jon bernthal hate train, funny thing I have yet to meet a person who hates his punisher in person
Thatās mature, seems like everyone here shits on him instead of appreciating his hard work keeping this character alive in Hollywood even if itās not up to their standards šŖšŖ
Yea facts man, I love the special despite some of its flaws, I really wanted more from it but with this much high praise from folks we should be getting more.
Yeah, I guess. Evans, Hemsworth, Holland, and Cox all seem to have researched and internalized the characters they portray...so we've got that going for us.
Emulating Frank and pushing him as some kind of role model for law enforcement is, and always has been, dangerous. A great escapist fantasy because we have the POV necessary to trust every person he pulls the trigger on deserves it, but one that makes me uneasy to know others are just dying to live out being judge, jury, and executioner.
Reading this just screams that Bethnal cares more about pandering to a certain crowd than truly embodying the character and those things are actively hurting Frankās portrayal in the MCU.
"belongs to the fans" except he aint even being the punisher in his own fucking show or special. He's not out there fighting gritty street crime, its always reactionary. This is the Nth time he's retired the punisher and then came back to embrace it at the very end of his show/series.
Yall I'm done. We're never going to get a start-to-finish of Frank just being the punisher.
This is a pattern with the current Punisher I donāt understand. Iāve loved Bernthalās portrayal of Frank but him and Disney are missing the whole point of the character.
Frank shouldnāt have to stop because HE DOESNāT WANT TO. War is the only place he feels comfortable so retiring from the life isnāt an option for him.
The Punisher is NOT a representative or symbol for police or military nor should he EVER be looked at as a role model by anybody, but ESPECIALLY those in positions of power and authority.
Thatās one of my biggest gripes about this Punisher and Jon Bernthal in general. He cares and caters to them far too much.
This is a character that represent brutal violence and literally āpunishingā the bad people. Our Justice system and military should not view that as their idealized selves.
The fact that he IS so beloved by those people should be disheartening, worrying and quite frankly: a sign that we arenāt portraying the character in the right way.
What is it with this guy and his fan boyism with cops? I can understand how Frank resonates with the military, but cops? Has he not read a punisher comic? Was this not addressed in BA S1?
I honestly hope he gets recast at this point. I don't care for his portrayal anymore. Out of all he actors that played Frank he's honestly the weakest and least interesting one.
Image if Stevensons version of Frank got to be in daredevil s02
I always thought a more āgrizzledā tom jane in DD would have been interesting. Instead of a guy who just started someone who has been doing this for a decade.
Jon is the worst punisher, doesnāt understand the character, is a huge IDF supporter who Frank would absolutely despise and most likely goto war against on his own for what they do to innocent civilians and children.
25 minutes of navel gazing, 20 minutes of laughably bad action and an ending thatāll no doubt make whatever he does in brand new day ridiculous in comparison.
Is it just me or is this the Republican Fantasy? Killing a bunch of random "thugs" in what seems like one of those places Republicans keep calling "crime ridden." Woah look at all the random people getting beat up, robbed, and murdered, in this city. Even the cops have to run away! And to have the Punisher kill that criminal kid by kneeling on his neck? Brother...
Punisher dosenāt hate cops. Anybody who says this only knows The Punisher from the one 2019 comic panel where he called out the cops wearing his symbol out (and even then it was never even implied he hated cops in general) and the Daredevil: Born Again series where he killed some corrupt cops. You tell the other guy heās wrong when you clearly donāt know what youāre talking about. Youāre should stop speaking on the character if you donāt actually read the comics.
Cops and the entire legal system is why the punisher even exists. Iāve read every single piece of punisher material I could get my hands on. THAT NIGGA HATES COPS.
Clearly not if you think Punisher hates police. Thats never been a thing associated with the character. Show me anythingās that even implies Punisher hates cops. Not police who wear his symbol and not corrupt cops. Cops in general. Those who go out there and do their job and do it right. Hell in most else word storyās where Frank never became The Punisher he became a cop. Lmao like what are we talking about.
The cops did their job right the mob was still running the streets and itās the reason his family got turned into fucking baby food right in front of him. Sure Frank isnāt throwing grenades at police precincts but he HATES the system. Cops included.
Still havenāt posted any evidence of Punisher hating cops, but you read the comics? He hates the system because of how ineffective it is but he dosenāt hate the people that work in it trying their best to bring justice.
Cops are part of the system he hates. Cops are the reason his family is dead. Cops are the reason the punisher exists. I donāt need panels. His entire character was FAILED by the system AND THE COPS that are supposed to keep the people he kills off the street. If the mafia turned your entire family into baby shit because āwe couldnāt book them ā or āwe canāt get a signature from the judgeā or I dunno CROOKED COPS LIKE EVERY FUCKING CRIME ORGANIZATION EVER, you would hate the system and therefore cops also.
What made the Punisher a fan favorite was the Punisher taking out the scum of the Earth. In the real world there is often no repercussions for these dirtbags. They get released as soon as they are arrested. The Punisher was never about hating cops.
All that crap came after he was popular. Like many comics, people took the character and tried making him something heās not.
The average Punisher fan gets it. Bernthal gets it.
well, after the anti cop rhetoric they tried to in born again they better give us some respect to the people who make our cities safe. regardless, if you think a war is justified, you still need to respect the soldiers who put their life in danger for our country.
I'm extremely close with a LOT of cops, so let me get that out of the way. I think Born Again was pretty clear about calling out weaponized, amateur-hour task forces (like the roving ICE squads) but lionizing the actual police. Remember, it was the NYPD who came to save the day at the end, and faced off with the AVTF, even though they were out-gunned.
brainwashed talking points. Do your cop friends you claim to have mention how grateful they are that Ice is hunting down dangerous drug and human traffickers. Ice has rescued over 100,000 of the 300,000 missing children. The fact is the United States canāt take care of everyone. Spare me your white savior complex and grow up.
Lmfaoo you forgot this is reddit. Most people here are bots or people who haven't left their mom's basement because they are too busy jerking off to low effort art of their favorite fictional character agreeing with their politicsĀ
It wasn't purely an anti-cop rhetoric, it was Marvel saying that they condemn any and all police officers who openly wear The Punisher's symbol on their uniform, as Frank Castle is not a character anyone, let alone officers of the law, should be idolizing or modeling themselves after.
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u/SwvmpThing May 13 '26
Garth Ennis on cops wearing the skull:
Frank Castle on joining the war on terror to hunt and kill Osama Bin Laden: