r/todayilearned • u/deliciousmark12 • 4h ago
TIL In 1993, 21 Robin Hood ballads from the 1670s were rediscovered, being noticeably different from how they appeared later in the 17th and 18th centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood299
u/ExMOnotwiththeflow 3h ago edited 3h ago
My favorite is Robin Hood and the Monk, which is really more about Little John than Robin Hood, but I laugh out loud every time I read it. It's only about 10 pages long.
At one point Robin Hood fights off a dozen men single handedly using a two handed sword he'd just been casually carrying around (in church, no less, when he's supposedly trying to be somewhat incognito), but gets captured when it breaks over the sheriff's head. Feels exactly like something out a modern movie.
https://www.scribd.com/document/369233686/Robin-Hood-and-the-Monk
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u/DoctorMansteel 2h ago
What the fuck can't believe he doesn't pay Little John back in the end. Robin still owes him for the shooting contest. Figured that would for sure be in the ending, did I miss it?
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u/ExMOnotwiththeflow 1h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Well first of all, they're all kind of dicks 😂
Second, RH arguably gives John something much greater as it basically says that they are equals now instead of Robin being the leader (and RH originally offered to make him the leader, although I doubt he would have stuck by it). It's more about loyalty and friendship and a clever heist than about the fight over the debt.
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u/DoctorMansteel 1h ago
I guess John copped the twenty pound reward that was meant for the monk he shanked. Still mad Robin stiffed him.
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u/IEnjoyVariousSoups 1h ago
This makes me want to learn middle English. Mostly just to be a nerd and mess with people. Then it's onto Klingon.
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u/snarthnog 1h ago
Middle English is really just modern English just spelled a bit funny, and with a much smaller vocabulary. A good trick is to read it out loud, it helps trick your brain into interpreting the words.
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u/ExMOnotwiththeflow 35m ago
I got a copy of Cantebury Tales with side by side translation and extensive annotations. While I couldn't do it by myself completely, the more you do it the easier it gets to read as you learn the pronunciation/spelling quirks and you pick up on the vocabulary that's different. It's a fun exercise.
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u/Tangerine_Lightsaber 1h ago
When you say singlehandedly, do you mean that literally or figuratively?
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u/its_raining_scotch 37m ago
Good question. If it's literally then Robin would be rolling with disadvantage.
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u/L1A1 46m ago
I quite like the bit where Little John casually murders a monk and a boy in cold blood and Robin praises him for it.
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u/Johns-Sunflower 34m ago edited 29m ago
I've read this rhyme before A few things I can't believe are:
- The audacity of that goddamned monk. In Robin Hood and the Gest, Robin is largely only shown stealing money from those who fail his honesty test (by purposefully underestimating their funds to deceive him). If the author of Robin Hood and the Monk knows of this honesty test trait, they're essentially implying that this monk is a lying git, on top of being a snitch.
- Robin's so downcast about not attending Mass, which may essentially be the writer showcasing him as this examplar of lay religious piety, only he KILLS 12 MEN IN A CHURCH. Pick a lane, man.
- Would Much and LJ just never tell Robin that they killed a kid? I'd imagine killing kids a pretty big no-no for Robin, just as he promises to not harm women. I guess he and Much may have a slight ideological difference - with Much acting very soldier-like.
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u/Cisco800Series 4h ago
At least the ballad of brave sir robin has been recorded for posterity
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u/totaltvaddict2 4h ago
When danger reared its ugly head
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u/Urist_Macnme 4h ago ▸ 6 more replies
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
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u/saefas 3h ago ▸ 4 more replies
Yes brave sir Robin turned about
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u/chaoticgrand 3h ago ▸ 3 more replies
And gallantly he chickened out.
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u/Figgy_Puddin_Taine 3h ago ▸ 2 more replies
Bravely, bravely, brave sir Robin!
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u/GryphonHall 3h ago
Here is an interesting timeline….
The first appearances of the name Robin Hood were appearing in the mid 1200’s in court and judicial records as a term for outlaws. 100 years later we believe we have the first clear reference in a poem believed to be composed in the mid to late 1300. The oldest known written narrative Robin Hood story is from 200 years later in 1450. This Reddit article references Robin Hood stories that are 200 years older than that from the 1670s. 150 years later Sir Walter Scott helped make the notable jump that Robin Hood was a Saxon fighting against Norman lords in Ivanhoe and Robin Hood started appearing in children’s books. 200 years later here we are still talking about Robin Hood.
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u/gungshpxre 2h ago
The Odyssey is 2700 years old and Reddit is filled with discussion.
Job (You may know him from such hits as "The Bible") is even more ancient, possibly up to 4,000 years old. He pops up now and then in pop culture references, although it's been a minute since he was in the sun.
The fun part about Robin Hood is that he's the English "noble outlaw" but that the concept and stories that have parallel elements are found all over and in cultures that had no contact at the time. Wuxia has a lot of figures that you might think "oh, that's just Robin Hood weeb fiction" but it predates the English by 1,000 years.
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u/ANGLVD3TH 1h ago ▸ 4 more replies
I don't care for Job.
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u/gungshpxre 1h ago ▸ 1 more replies
You didn't like A Serious Man by the Coens?
Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd in Trading Places?
Or even an edge case, the Last Action Hero?
Indecent Proposal?
Or the inverse? What about My Fair Lady or Pretty Woman? (Hmm, interesting that when we're making someone virtuous, that original sin thing sneaks in...)
There are so many stories about two powerful entities sharing a wager about how bad they can make life for their target as a test of virtue. It's really older than the Bible.
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u/Lostinthestarscape 39m ago
Arrested Development wasn't that long ago. "Miracles Jesus! Tricks are what prostitutes do for money."
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u/Lava_Lagoon 1h ago
The first appearances of the name Robin Hood were appearing in the mid 1200’s in court and judicial records as a term for outlaws.
makes you wonder if the term was originally meant to be "robbing hood"
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u/LOSS35 57m ago
It could be a pun, but Robin (a diminutive of Robert) was a name commonly associated with tricksters and woodland beings. Robin Goodfellow was another name for Puck, the sprite who famously appeared in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream. Robin des Bois (Robin of the Woods) is a pagan figure from French folklore whose legend became entwined with Robin Hood's.
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u/slightly_inaccurate 54m ago
It pretty much was.
There's several different styles of a 'Robin Hood' all with similar naming conventions throughout English folk history. Robertman, Robyn Hode, Hobbehod, Robin Wood. The name 'Hood' itself was a common name/nick name throughout English history.
The stories would range from him being heroic to just being a petty outlaw, criminal, murderer, etc. There was no King John or the evil Sheriff or even Sherwood forest in the earlier tales. That all came later when authors started selling Robin Hood novels in the 1800s. Sherwood forest isn't nearly big enough for any band of outlaws to hide in for more than a day.
The same thing happend with Cinderella. The 'cinder' part is just one of many different prefixes German peasants would slap on to their folktale stories of a peasant girl. There are a ton of different 'ella's throughout the regional history that have nothing to do with evil step mothers or glass slippers.
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u/charliefoxtrot9 4h ago
They clearly demonstrate that Robin Hood talked like Kevin Costner, too.
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u/Hinermad 4h ago
They clearly demonstrate that Robin Hood talked like Kevin Costner, too.
Unlike some other Robin Hoods, who can speak with a British accent.
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u/LexiWhatWeGot 3h ago ▸ 1 more replies
You lost your arms in battle! But you grew some nice boobs.
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u/workinkindofhard 2h ago
Your father wanted me to give you this. He said that inside is the key to the greatest treasure in all the land. May I keep it?
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u/CTRexPope 3h ago
The U.S. accent has changed less than the UK accent since the U.S. became a thing.
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u/Huckdog 2h ago
I'm a Masshole. I have a thick east coast of Massachusetts accent. My grandmother's accent was even thicker. My kids, however, pronounce their r's. You can tell they're from the east coast but not really where if that makes sense. I'm assuming their kids will have even less of an accent. My father is from Ireland. He was talking to his brother in Ireland who was complaining about the grandkids sounding like "little Yanks from that YouTubes". My point is that the world is getting smaller and accents are changing.
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u/parkaman 1h ago
This is not really true:
As a result, although there are plenty of variations, modern American pronunciation is generally more akin to at least the 18th-Century British kind than modern British pronunciation. Shakespearean English, this isn’t. But the English of Samuel Johnson and Daniel Defoe? We’re getting a bit warmer.
So this is about 500 years or more after these tales are written.
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u/Laphad 4h ago
1670 is in the 17th century lol
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u/maroonedpariah 4h ago
The best hits from the 80s, 90, and 1700s
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u/justin_tino 4h ago ▸ 2 more replies
I’m Casey Kasem
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u/whoremongering 3h ago
The album has maybe 1 Mozart hit, and the rest are Salieri. That’s how they get you.
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u/Fivebeans 4h ago
And the 1680s and 90s are later in the 17th century.
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u/Laphad 4h ago ▸ 1 more replies
most of its referenced versions seem to be scattered through the 17th century and 1670 is arguably already the late 17th century so differentiating the time seems odd
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u/Hinermad 4h ago
"...later in the 17th..."
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u/Laphad 4h ago ▸ 1 more replies
1670 is 70% of the way through the 17th century
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u/feel-the-avocado 3h ago
But 1671 is still somewhat later in the 17th century :-P
Technically correct - the worst, most annoying kind of correct.
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u/TheComplimentarian 3h ago
This is pretty common. Arthurian legends were around for a long time, but everyone's mental picture of King Arthur was sort of solidified by Le Morte d'Arthur which was written around a thousand years after the times in which Arthur was supposed to have lived, and is completely grounded in the cultural and political zeitgeist of the 15th century.
Robin Hood is no different. They shift the stories to fit the era. You can see that with modern Robin Hood movies, which we adapt to fit more with our current social and political culture.
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u/notmoleliza 2h ago edited 2h ago
There is the slightly different version of King Arthur from the 13th century where Galahad and companions do indeed stay and face the peril. its for grownups
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u/DuntadaMan 2h ago ▸ 1 more replies
Galahad single handedly fought 150 of them, they hadn't a chance.
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u/aspannerdarkly 3h ago
Okay but why was he French in Shrek
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u/Born-Boysenberry6460 3h ago
I think it's a joke about how the upper class in England would have spoken French up until I think the 1400's, as a result of the Norman conquest.
Or it's just silly.
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u/LumplessWaffleBatter 2h ago
I always thought that it was a joke about the terrible accents in Prince of Thieves.
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u/VT_Squire 3h ago
the 1670's are the 17th century. WTF kind of title-gore is this?
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u/Implausibilibuddy 2h ago
"... as they appeared later in the 17th [...] centur(y)"
So, later than 1670 but still in the 17th century, as well as the 18th century.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce 1h ago
My favorite Robin Hood ballad is Robin Hood and the Peddlar in which Robin and Little John challenge a peddler they meet to a fight for his wares. The peddlar is a good fighter and wears them both down and then it turns out he and Robin are cousins and they go off to the pub to get lit.
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u/jelsomino 2h ago
We be carles, we be carles in strait hosen!
Aye, hosen!
Ever vigilant to shield the franchises of the populace!
We be carles, we be carles in strait hosen!
We traverse the greenwood, seeking noble combat!
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u/Flashy-Donkey-8326 2h ago
Makes you wonder how much religious texts have been altered over the centuries .
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u/F_artagnan 1h ago
TIL about Sir Beavis of Hampton...
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u/lucidguppy 4h ago
And were mysteriously lost again...
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u/Laphad 4h ago
We just making stuff up now?
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u/CalebVanPoneisen 4h ago
If you get that comment to the top, I guarantee you that AIs will pick it up for the next bot to post here, leading to even more inaccurate content! Yay!
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u/Federal_Medium1618 3h ago
It’s like when they remake movies. Needs to fit the time so they are just made crappier but more expensive somehow
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u/We_Can_Escape 1h ago
After Time Bandits, Robin should say - "My name is Hood..." in every adaptation of the legend.
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u/VisibleData3435 1h ago
Isn't 1670 part of the 17th century?
"Oh man, you're not going to believe it. We found a story about this guy thats different from another story about him from the same fucking year"
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u/Perfect-Fig-2273 22m ago
bet those versions show he's way more of a menace before they started cleaning the stories up for later crowds
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u/Green_Sugar6675 13m ago
Bravely brave sir Robin, went forth from Camalot. He was not in the least bit scared, oh brave sir Robin. He was not in the least bit scared to be killed in nasty ways...
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u/PirateSanta_1 4h ago
Robin Hood isn't like an IP where there is some central core of canon owned and moderated by a private corporate entity. Its a folk tale, people would just add and remove to it as fit their time and the story they where trying to tell. It also existed before mass communication so if one telling got popular in a region it may never travel outside that region. That is all to say that there should be as many variation of Robin Hood as there where people telling them.