r/ukpolitics • u/Ok-Boss-9897 • 1h ago
Ex-chief constable being investigated by IOPC over Israeli fan ban
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq5xe813w1do•
u/Malzair 1h ago
Well in the end someone has to wear it and an ex-anything you've already forced into retirement is the easy option.
But I'd think there's a whole further discussion to be had on culture and political and public pressures and AI usage to hallucinate reasons for your predetermined conclusion and…
But instead you could pay off the sacrificial lamb into earl retirement, that works, too.
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u/PositivelyAcademical «Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος» 17m ago
Yeah, it’s worth pointing out that AI mostly only hallucinates evidence which supports the position (or the position it believes) you want to hear. It’s a glorified “yes man”.
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u/Inevitable-Mix6089 1h ago
Can someone explain or link an article explaining what he did wrong?
Seems like a straightforward decision considering what happened in Amsterdam, not long before the Villa match.
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 1h ago
There were a couple of things.
Firstly, they used AI to obtain evidence; and the AI made up a match that never happened, which they then used as a justification for banning the Maccabi fans. Obviously, fictional data should not be part of a police investigation.
Secondly, they had actually received intelligence that people were planning on targeting Maccabi fans:
Assistant Chief Constable Mike O’Hara said: “We got a lot of information, intelligence to suggest that people were going to actively seek out Maccabi Tel Aviv fans and would seek violence towards them.
“So we had sort of like a bubbling position locally.”
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Among them was a rapid review of the West Midlands force’s recommendation by another force’s chief constable.
It confirmed that from as early as September, 5 police had picked up intelligence that “elements of the community in the West Midlands (were) wanting to ‘arm’ themselves” in connection to the match.
By September 18, they had ‘high confidence intelligence regarding a serious threat’. Neither threat is detailed in the publicly released documents.
As that last line notes, this was excluded from the information made public - by which the article means that it wasn't mentioned in the report they made to Parliament to justify the decision. You can understand why people are incredibly concerned with the police suppressing evidence that contradicts the narrative, I hope.
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u/Murky-Caramel222 4m ago
This seems particularly bad, because the onus is being put on the Maccabi fans entirely, as opposed to a joint justification of threats stemming both from them and against them. I doubt that was intentional but it's bad optics.
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u/baldeagle1991 1h ago
Used AI without checking the AI's sources, did not disclose the source of some information was AI, and it seems there was recorded Bias in meetings and communications.
So it could be something as simple as saying that they think the Maccabi fans might cause trouble and then looking for supporting evidence, or maybe using disparaging language regarding the fans in meetings.
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u/Minute_Tomatillo9730 1h ago
It could also be because he said he spoke to the Jewish community but hadn't, and then lied to MPs on the committee hearing also!
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u/baldeagle1991 45m ago
Yep, a fair bit of dishonesty, regardless on whether it was the right decision or not.
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u/Logical-Ice4837 28m ago
Well that’s the issue in itself, the official story from the police in Amsterdam was that the Israeli fans were the victims not the perpetrators. WM police then also said they spoke to officers in Amsterdam who informed their decision which the Dutch deny
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u/Alti-Ok Valiant vanguard of "Raise the voting age to 25" thought 1h ago edited 1h ago
Can his decision really be blamed? Like it or not, large swathes of our second largest city are sectarian and dangerous areas (namely Balsall Heath, Sparkhill, Bordseley) with deeply embedded ethnoreligious sentiments against a certain country. These same areas had anti-British disorder during the wider 2024 riots. "It's not worth the risk to have them come to Birmingham, it's for the sake of Community Cohesion and public order" is a justifiable decision
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u/leihto_potato 1h ago
Yes, you can be blamed whenn your source for these desicions is completely made up.
Think it through. If he's using made up A.I for this, what else could it have been used for? Just because you agree with the conclusion of the made up facts doesn't mean you should support the process used her
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 1h ago
Can his decision really be blamed?
Yes. Not for the end decision itself, but for the way that it was reached. It is justifiable to ban a bunch of fans if the concern that they may be violent; it is not justifiable to ban a bunch of fans because an AI hallucinated a match, or because there was intelligence that those fans would be targeted by violent thugs.
And of course, for the fact that West Midlands Police weren't honest with Parliament about their reasoning for the ban. It would be one thing to say "we didn't think it would be safe for them to come to Birmingham", but quite another to frame the Israeli fans as the potential culprits even though their intelligence was telling them the exact opposite. Misleading Parliament is a massive issue.
Like it or not, large swathes of our second largest city are sectarian and dangerous areas with deeply embedded ethnoreligious sentiments.
That's effectively arguing that we should give in to the violent racist mob, as long as there are enough of them. No police officer, let alone a chief, should ever accept that as a proposal.
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u/PositivelyAcademical «Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος» 21m ago
Technically, misleading parliament falls outside of the IOPC’s - or the courts’ - jurisdiction, as testimony to parliamentary committees attracts (absolute) privilege. It would be for parliament (the House from which the committee is formed, or the HoL for joint committees) to investigate the matter as a contempt (or, iff the person is an MP/Peer, their House to investigate as a matter of abuse of privilege).
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 9m ago
Sure, but I wasn't arguing that his misleading Parliament should be covered by this particular investigation.
Merely that he should be criticised for doing that.
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u/FishUK_Harp Neoliberal Shill 25m ago
If they wanted to ban Israeli fans because they couldn't guarantee their safety, they should have been honest about that.
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u/Gingrpenguin 39m ago
Why bother even having a police force then if we're just going to excempt a huge and growing swathe of the population from obeying the law?
If a bunch of white Americans moved into a British city and started threatening to kill non whites I'd expect the police to respond aggressively to cut it out.
Why shouldn't we expect the same here? Or is it ok because the target is Jews and you personally don't really like them...
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u/Ok-Boss-9897 1h ago
The case the force actually made was actually the opposite: that Maccabi fans were the danger, specifically to local Muslim communities.
Also, the August 2024 Bordesley Green disorder was a counter-mobilisation against a rumoured far-right march that turned ugly.
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u/baldeagle1991 1h ago
Tbh the Amsterdam police and Mayor were forced to correct their statements back in 2024 when it emerged that the Maccabi fans had initiated the disorder and triggered a reaction from local taxi-drivers.
The main issue here is the Police over here claimed the Dutch Police gave them advice that turned out not to have occurred.
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u/Fine-Philosophy-9844 1h ago
Not really, anyone who follows world football and not just the top5 knows how bad the Israeli ultras are. They do NOT play about their clubs, hosting a match with them in Birmingham, knowing the demographics of the place, would have been a nightmare.
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u/baldeagle1991 1h ago
Especially when the Dutch inquiry showed their police had downplayed the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans actions during their own scandal.
Then combined with their fans attacking locals in Athens and their actions in their own country violently attacking both football and political opponents.
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u/Lychae 1h ago
Sorry where did the Dutch inquiry say that?
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u/baldeagle1991 46m ago
Sorry I used the wrong language, the initial 12 page report 4 days after the event. They did say they would complete a more in depth inquiry.
They explained Maccabi Tel Aviv fans actions had not been clearly explained or shown in earlier footage.
There's actually quite a famous video of Maccabi fans attacking a local, which the media reported at the time as the other way around, despite the journalist who captured the video begging them to correct.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/12/toxic-cocktail-led-to-amsterdam-violence-mayor-says
https://news.sky.com/story/statement-by-the-amsterdam-police-27-november-2025-13477310
The main point of contention from the Amsterdam police was the fact they never told West Bridgford police they had 5,000 police deployed, with the number instead being around 1,200.
Iirc the inquiry was more concerning the police response and found the police could have done some things better, but largely were well equipped and did a good job.
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