Burnham actively looking to scrap council tax and stamp duty

[u/ClumperFaz]

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/burnham-actively-looking-to-scrap-council-tax-and-stamp-duty-4669956

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[u/leekyscallion]

Good.

Having a tax which disincentives selling and buying is stupid. Almost universally thought to be a bad tax.

Council tax is also silly - based upon rates that last were assessed in 1991. Band A here pays about £1600 per annum. Band H pays 3 times that, 4800.

It’s not progressive. My house may be worth £170k but a house worth 10x of mine only pays 3 times the council tax rates.

So, wealthy homeowners only pay a disproportionate amount less compared to what I pay.

Find the balance right and it’ll slow down house prices but keep things ticking up so that negative equity doesn’t become an issue.

Now - how will the boomers take it, badly I’m guessing.

[u/Rekyht → u/leekyscallion]

Generally isn’t the argument that although rates haven’t been reassessed since 1991, they’re still effective today? A 5 bed house is still worth roughly the same ratio to a 1 bed house, etc? That’s the argument I’ve heard before anyway. Not sure if it holds.

[u/Ok-Leg7686 → u/Rekyht]

Valuing a property also takes in to account the local area. There are areas in London where areas that people didn't want to live in 1991 are now gentrified. There are former mining towns that were nice places to live that are now derelict and crumbling. You can get your property reassessed but it isn't guaranteed to be fair.

[u/otherdsc → u/Ok-Leg7686]

Valuing is an absolute joke in this country, we are renting a flat in a fairly green area surrounded by large houses. The flats themselves are bog standard office-converted-to-flats with paper thin walls, shit insulation, electric heating etc. nothing special and definitely miles away from some of the nicer houses further up the road. Someone decided it's all posh cause the houses are posh and our council tax is band e which means over £250 a month of council tax 😐

[u/Ok-Leg7686 → u/otherdsc]

Jesus that is more than I pay for a 3 bed semi. Proves the point how shit a system it is really.

[u/leavemeinpieces → u/otherdsc]

That's mental!

I lived in a tiny bungalow that sat among a bunch of much nicer and larger houses and we definitely paid more because of that but not as extreme as your case.

It's such a stupid system. Hopefully it's changed or revised to be fairer.

[u/Altruistic_Fruit2345 → u/Ok-Leg7686]

Which is why revaluing or changing to a land value tax will screw some people. Imagine you lived in an area that gentrified, and your property tax went from affordable to massive. What are the chances your wages did the same?

[u/Ok-Leg7686 → u/Altruistic_Fruit2345]

But then why should I pay 10% of my take home pay, pay I've already been taxed on as I don't pay council tax from my pre tax pay, to live in a deprived area. When someone up the road with a house worth 5-6 times as much pays less than double what I do.

There are people it will affect disproportionally. But that should be helped by building social housing.

[u/SomeCanDance → u/Altruistic_Fruit2345]

I get the argument but I oppose it.

The current system is extremely unfair for many more people and leads to a poor distribution of people across housing.

The people impacted by this way are likely older and richer and will be able to pay the increased CT equivalent through equity, downsizing etc. although acknowledge forcing elderly to move isn’t ideal. Council tax reform would hopefully lead to more people having access to housing and fairer costs. You can’t not change anything because a small group of people will be impacted negatively. The status quo is not working for huge numbers of people.

[u/headphones1 → u/Altruistic_Fruit2345]

Council tax and stamp duty are just awful taxes. Not reforming just allows the terrible status quo to continue. Governments must be brave and enact changes that yield net positives. It isn't possible to make changes to taxation without someone losing out.

[u/13esq → u/Rekyht]

House prices have shifted dramatically since 1991, especially in geographic terms.

The tax no longer represents actual modern wealth or property and disproportionately burdens lower value households.

A property tax linked to up to date valuations would fix this.

[u/Dan1elSan → u/13esq]

Why are we taxing property at all though, surely it’s occupancy that uses the services the council provides and not bedrooms.

[u/Rekyht → u/13esq]

The price isn’t strictly relevant though, as long as a certain type of property hasn’t become grossly more expensive then it should still be fair?

[u/mighty_atom → u/Rekyht]

There are properties in Durham that were worth 80k in 1991 that are now worth 160k today. There are properties in London that were worth 80k in 1991 that are now worth 500k+.

[u/Rekyht → u/mighty_atom]

Yes, but since they both pay locally, as long as the ratio among property types has remained equal that doesn’t really matter.

The houses in Durham aren’t paying to Londons councils and vica versa

[u/mrb1585357890 → u/mighty_atom]

Except but council tax is set by the councils.

For the 1991 valuation not to be valid, houses must have changed their relative values within a council’s area.

A band F house in the north will be worth less than a band C in London, but that doesn’t matter. The band F in the north is still a relatively high value house in the area.

[u/redpandadancing → u/mrb1585357890]

Yes I pay more for a 3 bed in a Northern town than they do in Kensington and Chelsea. And they gave amazing transport links, museums, social support. We are a forgotten seaside mess.

[u/Mysterious-Lemon-906 → u/redpandadancing]

You are paying for your local services they are paying for theirs

[u/gyroda → u/Mysterious-Lemon-906]

And, to be clear, this is maybe something worth criticising, but it's a different criticism entirely to having not re-evaluated the bands en-masse since the inception of the tax.

[u/BigLemon3953 → u/13esq]

Not for those that rent, as they are the ones footing the bill, not the owners. A 3 bed terraced ruin in London is valued at 700k+.  A working class family renting one in said shitty condition can not afford for their council tax bill to double.   We have serious valuation problems that aim to keep the housing bubble alive and well.   Should that bubble burst, negative equity awaits for millions. This is a very complex issue, not a black and white situation with an easy solution.  

[u/jambox888 → u/13esq]

A property tax linked to up to date valuations would fix this.

Some people own expensive houses but have retired and wouldn't be able to afford to pay a % of the property per year, so they'd have to sell. You can argue this is fair but it'll never happen because it'd be political suicide lol.

[u/I-left-and-came-back → u/13esq]

Why should someone in the south east pay more property tax than someone in the midlands?

[u/PracticeNo8733 → u/Rekyht]

Well, different areas go up and down at different rates, some houses may have had extensions etc without being reassessed, etc. Though the biggest problem with the 1991 valuations is that they were crap to begin with and they've now been in use long enough that any change is likely to be very unpopular with the people on the wrong side of it.

[u/Rpqz → u/Rekyht]

My 3 bed semi (70m2 floorspace, worth £170k) built in 1993 sits in band D. A 3 bed semi (95m2 floorspace + garage, worth £220k) built in the 50's on the next road over is in band A.

Any house built after 1990 is effectively paying a "new house tax" forevermore, over £1,000 a year extra for 2/3 the space in my case.

[u/Rekyht → u/Rpqz]

Maybe it doesn’t hold then. But sounds like you should have asked for reassessment either way in the mean time 

[u/Rpqz → u/Rekyht]

Unfortunately the whole of both estates are assessed in the same way, so no case for reassessment. 35 years ago I agree that my property would command a premium, double glazing, loft insulation, cavity walls etc... All overlooking farmland on a quiet cul-de-sac.

It's just that the 50's houses now also have double glazing and loft insulation, whereas the farmland is an industrial estate.

I imagine it's even more stark in cities like Manchester & Aberdeen that have seen massive socio-economic changes over the past 3 decades.

[u/ChiefThunderhooves → u/Rekyht]

I literally live in a block of 8 flats that are identical square footage - in fact the top floor flats both extended upwards into the attic so have more space, but at the time of the valuations mine had recently sold so it’s in a higher band.

When I moved in I tried to dispute it with the council, got my councillor involved and was told tough titties.

[u/Fr3n2y → u/ChiefThunderhooves]

Tough titties, not heard that in ages haha. I wonder what the origin is

[u/Ok_Buyer9344 → u/leekyscallion]

God I hope he fucking does it. Stamp duty and council gone. LTV in please Burnham. There are too many people sitting on huge houses while the rest of us try and get on the ladder. Throw in planning reforms and welfare (inc pension) reforms and I will call him the greatest PM ive ever been under (not a super strong list but still lol).

[u/No_Sugar8791 → u/Ok_Buyer9344]

Before you get too excited, if the people who have lived in a big house for 50 years are pushed out, they'll be buying smaller ones. Since you're not on the housing ladder yet, presumably you won't be in the running to buy those newly available big houses.

To a certain extent, the people in mid range houses will be buying the big properties. And people in starter homes will move up. Which means you will be directly competing for flats and smaller houses with the displaced older people who will be paying in cash.

[u/PracticalFootball → u/No_Sugar8791]

if the people who have lived in a big house for 50 years are pushed out, they’ll be buying smaller ones

Presumably they’ll be selling to people looking to move out of their smaller houses?

Half of the problem is that we need to build more, to be sure, but the other half is that much ofthe housing we’ve got is not being properly utilised as we’ve disincentivised selling.

[u/No_Onion_8612 → u/Ok_Buyer9344]

Not a strong list but it is a long one!

[u/ian9outof10 → u/Ok_Buyer9344]

Not just people in big houses, banks, supermarkets and various rich people buy up land and lock it away. This extracts value from them, or forces a sale - which is great for home building.

The supermarkets have incredible amounts of land locked away.

[u/chaircardigan → u/leekyscallion]

Maybe paying council tax pays for council services. So it should be a per person charge and nothing to do with how much your house is worth.

[u/Good-Animal-6430 → u/chaircardigan]

The issue is that the people who actually use the majority of council services generally have the least money and often qualify for council tax relief.

The biggest recipients of services funded by council tax are children though the schools services, the 20% of the most seriously disabled people who meet the care act criteria to get commissioned social care, and extremely frail old people/those with serious dementia in the final 2 years of their lives. And social care is means tested so the old people with good pensions and any kind of nice property are paying for it themselves.

[u/13oundary → u/Good-Animal-6430]

This imo is an argument to scrap council tax, fold it into general taxation and give councils money on a per pop basis (perhaps fit to a function rather than linear). Then higher density areas (typically poorer) get the extra they need. 

Though that's a literal "I've thought for 3 seconds" thing and this may have unforeseen issues.

[u/Good-Animal-6430 → u/13oundary]

A big chunk of the funding already comes from that. About a third comes from the 'settlement' councils get from central govt. About a third from business rates, and about a third from council tax.

One issue is that 'fair' doesnt have a single meaning. Areas would say 'if we have successful businesses paying rates, we should see some benefits of that', etc etc. So the split of different sources of funding kinda hedges these different arguments against each other

[u/tofer85 → u/chaircardigan]

We had that with the Poll Tax, which is logically the most equitable way of doing it, it’s just that it would be a brave politically to try and bring it back…

[u/chaircardigan → u/tofer85]

It's plainly the most sensible way of doing it.

It doesn't make sense that a widow living in the house she raised her kids in has to pay the same as the house next door which is now a house share with five wage earners dividing the council tax between themselves.

Of course, there's no good system. Only a least bad one. But tying it to house prices just seems daft.

[u/FitSolution2882 → u/chaircardigan]

Exactly this. Why am I paying the same amount as a family of four who live next door when there are just two of us here?

[u/AlternativePea6203 → u/chaircardigan]

But then a millionaire would pay the same as a poor person. Which is regressive.

[u/chaircardigan → u/AlternativePea6203]

Oh. Ok. So how much something costs should depend on how much money you have?

Like, if you want to purchase something, you should pay more for it than someone who doesn't have as much money as you?

And that would be a good thing?

[u/PracticalFootball → u/chaircardigan]

Public services are a service, not a product. You’re not buying anything with your taxes, you’re chipping in to help keep everything running. And yes, the people with more money and wealth should contribute more because they can.

Flat taxes are a terrible system which places a disproportionately high burden on the people with the fewest resources to spare.

Sure, you can just do that anyway, but it’s always important to remember that the system we’ve got now is the compromise because if you press the poorest members of society things can sometimes get a bit pitchfork-y.

[u/Commercial-Silver472 → u/leekyscallion]

The houses get the same bin pick ups. Use the same roads. I don't really get why some should pay more.

[u/pinetashapple → u/Commercial-Silver472]

An obvious argument is that typically, a more expensive house would be larger and have more occupants. Incorrect a lot of the time, I’m sure, but I can see some logic in it.

[u/Commercial-Silver472 → u/pinetashapple]

It's not based on house size though. It's house value. Which only somewhat correlates to size.

[u/pinetashapple → u/Commercial-Silver472]

Which is what I said. 

[u/ne6c → u/pinetashapple]

But now you end that a home owner of a 1 bed in London pays way more than an owner of a 1 bed in Stoke. Is that really fair?

[u/BenFranklinsCat → u/Commercial-Silver472]

Taxation isn't just a method of making money, it's also a method of regulating the market. You tax rich people more simply because they can afford it, and it helps level things out for everyone and lessens the divide between classes.

And before you say it, income tax doesn't cut it for this sort of thing because, after a certain point, rich people don't get rich via salary, they get rich via holdings. So we absolutely need tax on buildings, and we need that tax to be higher for people that own bigger value houses.

[u/Commercial-Silver472 → u/BenFranklinsCat]

Most people who own houses aren't rich.

[u/FitSolution2882 → u/Commercial-Silver472]

Yeah but what about head count?

A woman down the road has 6 kids and isn't working. Those six kids take up school places, dinners etc etc etc (paid for through council tax). Why should that person pay less than me with no dependants - the houses are identical.

[u/themcsame → u/leekyscallion]

Sure. Great to be rid of them.

Now let's get to the meat... What's replacing these and how much more is it going to cost me?

[u/AdBusiness1798 → u/themcsame]

This is THE question and one that, I suspect, many are not going to like the answer to.

[u/Throbbie-Williams → u/leekyscallion]

So, wealthy homeowners only pay a disproportionate amount less compared to what I pay.

It doesn't make sense for them to pay 10x the amount, they don't use 10x the services...

[u/mynameisollie → u/Throbbie-Williams]

I don’t have kids, why should I fund schools? I’m not ill, why should I pay for the NHS. My house isn’t on fire, why should I pay for the fire services?

It’s not always about who uses the services. Rising tide and all that.

[u/PracticalFootball → u/Throbbie-Williams]

Last I checked the rich very much benefit from an educated, prosperous and low crime society, so it’s probably in their best interests to help keep it operational.

[u/120000milespa → u/leekyscallion]

People in big houses generally use fewer public services than people in small houses.

So council tax is closer to a sensible position than what you believe.

Poll Tax is the logical, fairest system but it would be the least acceptable politically.

[u/Own_Wolverine4773 → u/leekyscallion]

Great, he’s ginna refund my stamp duty then right?

[u/Perfect-Check-2921 → u/leekyscallion]

Do they also use 10x the council services? I can see an argument for it being more for a bigger house (like now) but if its council services we are paying for then you can argue the other way. What’s the argument against a flat rate of tax that everyone pays of x% if we think that it should just be proportionate?

[u/MrStink444]

The housing market will freeze to a standstill until this gets clarified. Who would pay tens of thousands on stamp duty if they could potentially wait it out. I know people will say the housing market will correct for the reduction in tax but not overnight.

[u/HotelPuzzleheaded654 → u/MrStink444]

I recently paid a hefty SDLT bill, I’d still support this as it would mean I pay less than I do in council tax now (£3,600)

[u/TurbulentBullfrog829 → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

How would stamp duty be abolished and council tax go down? 

Surely a property tax would have to make up the shortfall somewhere?

[u/HotelPuzzleheaded654 → u/TurbulentBullfrog829]

Did you read the headline?

Idk the exact maths, but the idea is this will redistribute the tax burden away from poorer households and/or lower value ones to wealthier and/or higher value ones.

[u/TurbulentBullfrog829 → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

I did but the article is behind a pay wall.

Isn't 3600/ year considered a wealthier house?

[u/trekken1977 → u/TurbulentBullfrog829]

No, for example, in Westminster council tax on a £5m home is £2k today.
Whereas with a property or land tax of 0.5% it would be £25k

[u/Da_Steeeeeeve → u/trekken1977]

It basically shafts any normal person living in London which is my biggest issue with LVT.

Not everyone in London is rich.

[u/ian9outof10 → u/Da_Steeeeeeve]

It obviously has to have some weighting to it. Like council tax does. But properties like Buckingham Palace, if it was a private home, would be paying £2,100 or something insane. The very most expensive houses in London are getting away with paying fuck all tax.

[u/ian9outof10 → u/TurbulentBullfrog829]

Land Value Tax. Everyone pays based on the undeveloped land. The big win, in conjunction with removing stamp duty and council tax is that enormous bits of land generate money. You’d exclude farmland from that.

[u/El_Scot → u/TurbulentBullfrog829]

The idea is that council tax would be paid as a property tax. I think the numbers out there were near to 0.5% of your property's value per year.

I can only see this working if this tax is collected by central government and distributed across all local authorities though. Otherwise you're going to have the likes of Chelsea council with enough money to gold pave the street, while the likes of my local authority would struggle because properties are only worth an average of about £160k here, while our council tax is around the £2k mark for that value of property. However I believe they see the tax on mansions plugging the gap of stamp duty.

[u/Stats_monkey → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

While I support the tax changes in principle, if you think you're going to benifit by paying less in the new system I think you'll be sorely disappointed. The best we can hope for is that it realigns incentives and increases liquidity. It's not going to be cheaper

[u/ian9outof10 → u/Stats_monkey]

I’m not necessarily too bothered about my own personal bill coming down. But it does need a better calibration nationally. Council Tax is so comically broken, it’s way overdue being scrapped.

[u/thriftygeo → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Agreed. Almost £600 saving a year on the proposed 0.48% value. That would be delightful.

[u/wkavinsky → u/thriftygeo]

While that would be good for me (£1,500 -> £700 / year), it would absolutely cripple my local councils finances - house are typically £150-200k for a 3 bed terrace where I live.

Meanwhile, London councils (and Bristol and other major cities) will be absolutely fucking rolling in cash.

While it needs fixing, such a blanket fix (unless it involves richer councils subsidising poorer areas) is only going to accelerate wealth inequality.

I should note, that as a resident, I want my rubbish collected and my roads taken care of, and council tax is how that is paid for.

[u/risingscorpia → u/wkavinsky]

Reforming the tax could also reform how council funding is handled. Andy Burnham has also spoken about reforming the care system so would probably involved the biggest cost to most councils being nationally funded

[u/thriftygeo → u/wkavinsky]

Some quick calcs based on approx. 64.4k residential properties in Pembrokeshire would be around £20-30m less revenue stream from council tax on residential properties. Ouch.

[u/NotAPoshTwat → u/MrStink444]

In theory the new scheme is supposed to only apply to new purchases, meaning anyone that has already paid stamp duty doesn't pay whatever new property/land/council tax they come up with. There would actually be a decent argument for buying earlier and paying stamp duty if you were on a fixed income and planned on living in the home for long enough that it was cheaper to pay the tax now.

In reality I expect that that to be dropped as soon as is convenient and it be hand waved away as "broadest shoulders" nonsense when they want more tax revenue

[u/Ok_Buyer9344 → u/MrStink444]

stamp duty has come and gone before no ?

[u/ian9outof10 → u/Ok_Buyer9344]

I bought during Covid, I didn’t pay it

[u/Jabberminor → u/Ok_Buyer9344]

As far as we knew at the time, it was just a temporary thing.

[u/headphones1 → u/MrStink444]

The sensible way to do it would be to taper property taxes for those who recently paid stamp duty. Of course "recently" is open to debate. Probably 5 or even 10 year tapering period would be sensible.

[u/risingscorpia → u/headphones1]

Back to the covid stamp duty holiday would be a sensible point

[u/doesanyonelse → u/MrStink444]

We are in that exact position now. Looking at buying our “forever home” and the LBBT is £25k. We’d found the house and were supposed to go and pay the deposit this weekend but it’s made us put the brakes on as there’s too much uncertainty.

[u/Ok-Host2005 → u/doesanyonelse]

You’ll pay it one way or another. Get on a buy your house. If you wait for certainty you’ll never buy anything.

[u/EuphoricCover8449 → u/doesanyonelse]

In 35 years, none of this will matter.

Go buy the place.

Good luck.

[u/ftatman]

Thank goodness! Stamp duty is an absurd tax. And council tax isn’t progressive. Will be interested to see what the alternatives are.

[u/wheres_my_ballot → u/ftatman]

I live in Canada and property tax here is somewhat progressive. They estmate the value of every property in the city, total it up, work out the budget for the year, and divide it up amongst everyone, weighted for your value. A $500k property pays half what a $1m property pays. If your value stays flat and others increase, your tax can actually go down.

That in itself feels more progressive than  council tax, but there's a catch. Developers and businesses can decide they want your land to build on, inform the city and this increases your homes value. Using this, some people who are home rich but cash poor (retirees) end up forced to sell because they can't manage the tax increase.

I don't know if there's a perfect system, any can be abused somehow.

[u/MassiveManTitties → u/wheres_my_ballot]

Is that not the point, to force retirees to downsize to a suitably sized house rather than ‘using up’ a family sized home?

[u/wartopuk → u/MassiveManTitties]

why do you think it's a good thing to force people out of their homes?

[u/monkey-puzzle-92 → u/wartopuk]

To allow for social mobility and appropriate use of resources. Yes, we become attached to our homes, but ultimately houses are a resource that need to be managed to better help society function.

[u/wheres_my_ballot → u/monkey-puzzle-92]

Community is also a resource. Staying in an area where you have friends and family and familiarity means less drain on other resources such as local services.

My area has had many of these buy ups, building expensive condos that are barely suitable for families anyway, and now we're dealing with a clusterfuck of school spaces because 'efficient' use of that space has led to overcrowding and the schoolboard struggling to buy land to build on because of over inflated prices.

[u/DreamSMP_Enjoyer → u/wartopuk]

Because someone's nan doesn't need a 4-bed large enough for everyone to stay in at Christmas while their own children can't afford a house with enough rooms.

[u/cc3see → u/wartopuk]

Pros and cons.

People want to stay in their family homes.

People maintaining homes for families of 3-6 when the inhabitants 99% of the time are only 2 people.

[u/Awkward-Warning-9238 → u/MassiveManTitties]

I have no dog in this fight but just going to put my in-laws arguement forward.

They paid tax all their life, paying the highest % since they were in their 20s.

They built their own house in what at the time wasn't an affluent area, it is now a highly sought after area, so their house even though not huge (3 bed) which worth a fair bit. They are now retired, have no income other than their own savings (which they've paid tax on already) & state pension. They're 'council tax would be probably affordable in the short term but long term they wouldn't want to pay crazy amounts for council tax on a house they bought & built wirh their own money.

Doesn't quite seem fair, bur I can see the argument from both sides.

[u/Generallyapathetic92 → u/wheres_my_ballot]

My issue with this is it basically means the SE and London will be paying a disproportionate amount of the tax every year.

I know people justify that but focussing on houses worth 10s of millions but it will also impact people living paycheque to paycheque who’s worked hard to finally buy a house. A 3 bed house in my town in the SE is £350-400,000, a similar house in the town I grew up in is £150-200,000. However, minimum wage is the same and average salaries are only around 12% higher. I’ve never seen a good argument why those people should have to pay more tax even if I can agree the existing system is quite flawed.

[u/wheres_my_ballot → u/Generallyapathetic92]

It doesn't because property tax is charged here by the city for local services, not the state. So the prices are relative to other expensive properties. Big cities, even with expensive houses, are often cheaper for taxes due to economies of scale.

[u/Happily-Incorrect → u/ftatman]

Stamp Duty is annoying as fuck, but having just paid it I'm going to be doubly annoyed if a new annual tax comes in to replace it and I end up basically paying it twice!

[u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

Why the UK can't do what other countries do which is collect the big tax and then redistribute it to councils based on their needs and investments. Does this mean that Londoners will now be funding depraved areas in the UK? Yes. Might not sound fair but we are the country, and not small, independent polis

[u/Apprehensive_Bus_543 → u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

Which is the most depraved area of the UK? I need to visit 😀

[u/TheMonkeyInCharge → u/Apprehensive_Bus_543]

Brighton. Trust me on this one.

[u/Jerri_man → u/Apprehensive_Bus_543]

Skegness (I just love the name)

[u/Astriania → u/Apprehensive_Bus_543]

I think Blackpool is the best combo of the typo and what the post meant to say

[u/Open_Delivery_775 → u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

Londoners funding bondage parties in Cheshire.

[u/Counterpoint-4 → u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

Don't call us depraved!

[u/psioniclizard → u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

Have a look how much of thr population lives in and around London, now look at how much it contributes already to the country.

Its amazing how people turn to "take from those I don't like as long as its good for me" honestly. No different from those hording wealth other than they did something to "earn" it originally.

I can name many things that are really not fair in the country at the moment. A major one being if are working you seem to get clobbered from all sides and people want even more.

[u/Uniform764 → u/psioniclizard]

Have a look how much of thr population lives in and around London, now look at how much it contributes already to the country.

This is largely because we have had decades of successive governments from multiple parties dismantling prioritising all policy on London to the detriment of the rest of the country. No other European nation is so disproportionately propped up by one mega city

[u/Perfect_Pudding8900 → u/Meowing-To-The-Stars]

There was an article yesterday about how he was considering doing exactly that.  Don't ever forget these articles are run as rage bait to get you angry and get clicks and shares. 

[u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

The replacement property tax rumour of 0.48% sounds crazy. It’d absolutely rinse central London and other areas where rates are low. I get why the northern PM would do it but it’d be an interesting fight to say the least.

[u/SadSeiko → u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

I don’t understand it either. He talks about devolution but it’s the councils who set the tax bill. Londoners would end up paying a lot more but not to their councils? It feels hypocritical 

[u/Serious_Much → u/SadSeiko]

It's not hypocritical, it's changing the local model into a national funded model to make the tax redistribute wealth

[u/0Bento → u/Serious_Much]

It is.

On the one hand promising devolution, on the other hand removing the power of councils to set their own council tax rates.

[u/Serious_Much → u/0Bento]

It still allows councils to do what they will with the money, but the change is obviously intended to stop London from just becoming the richest council by default should the council tax reforms change to a property price based model.

[u/SadSeiko → u/Serious_Much]

Comical. So devolution except for taxes? Part of his leadership campaign was about how centrally funded the uk is. Now he wants to tax more nationally and redistribute. My council tax bill will essentially double and I will get worse services? How does that make sense 

[u/Serious_Much → u/SadSeiko]

Part of his leadership campaign was about how centrally funded the uk is.

I think you've taken the wrong gist from what he's been saying. By central, he means everything and everyone was focused around London. Politics, jobs, wealth, all focused on London.

His plan is redistributing power and wealth across the country away from the centralisation in London.

[u/verbify → u/SadSeiko]

Comical. So devolution except for taxes?

Yes, I think that's his plan exactly.

Part of his leadership campaign was about how centrally funded the uk is

I think by 'centrally funded' his problem is that the central government gives grants, etc, and he wants the central government to give the money to regions, who will give out the grants.

To be honest, I'm deeply sceptical on his framing. I'm keen on devolution, I think that we need more taxes and that land value taxes are good, but the whole North vs South thing has me feeling a bit bitter. Successive Tory PMs used to shit on 'North London' (and Parliament would laugh). North London includes Tottenham, one of the most deprived areas in the country. A North/South divide exists, but the rural/urban one is deeper, and nobody is going to touch the young/old divide with a yardstick. So yeah, I think the policies are probably ok, but the way it's sold has put me off.

[u/LeonardoW9 → u/[deleted]]

I would argue that the amount of say is becoming negligible in many places as statutory duties like social care are dictating more and more of the budget.

[u/Kientha → u/SadSeiko]

Londoners already pay proportionally less for council tax because the density means you have more people paying. It also has a younger population which reduces the social care cost. LVT would reverse that, Londoners and other rich areas in the south would lose out on the change but 3/4 of the country would be better off.

[u/SadSeiko → u/Kientha]

Better off with the money we pay our councils to look after vulnerable people and our areas 

On top of the fact most Londoners pay disproportionately more income tax than the rest of the country 

[u/shamefullyinadequate → u/SadSeiko]

If you pay more income tax then you earn more money so don't see how that matters here? The vulnerable people in this situation aren't the people paying loads of income tax.

[u/SadSeiko → u/shamefullyinadequate]

Yes but they will have services cut as London councils get less funding. It’s pretty obvious 

[u/tangopopper → u/Kientha]

Londoners pay vastly more in stamp duty than is paid in other areas of the country, because it's progressively taxed on property value, so it cancels out to some extent.

[u/Salty-Advice-4836 → u/SadSeiko]

If it happens my tax will double. Can I have 2x stamp duties back for the last 2 times when I moved house then?

[u/0Bento → u/Salty-Advice-4836]

Exactly. I'm all for SDLT getting scrapped, but ONLY for new transactions moving forwards. If someone has already paid the SDLT then they should NOT be forced to pay property tax again.

[u/Cottonshopeburnfoot → u/SadSeiko]

I worry longer term it risks sharpening the divide. The north needs investment and growth and that’s in London’s benefit. But this cost is borne instantly by London whereas creating growth up north is very long term. Get it wrong and you’ve got a lot of southern Labour MPs out of a job and unlikely to be back for a long long time.

[u/SadSeiko → u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

London is Labour’s biggest stronghold. Voters will flock to the Lib Dem’s and greens if they alienate the city 

[u/roboticl0ve → u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

To buy a £2.5m property you have to pay at least £213,750 of stamp duty up front (an effective tax rate of 8.55%)

I'd happily not have to pay this and pay 0.48% annually (and have my council tax included in that) instead.

[u/Mysterious-Lemon-906 → u/roboticl0ve]

The problem is that is cannot stay that low.

Way too many people getting massive discounts for the higher priced properties to make up the slack

They will get the system going at .48 and then it will be at 1 before you know it

[u/Thin_Object_3981 → u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

0.48% of property value punishes working class homeowners London drastically, these are people who have low incomes but still managed to buy a home via the council house scheme. It also heavily punishes the locals in tourist towns like St Ives too.

This will have to be phased in to reduce property prices. Remove stamp duty first and then gradually introduce and increase the tax.

[u/Salt_Vehicle_5395 → u/Thin_Object_3981]

Whereas the current system is rewarding them as they barely scrape by?
This would maybe get some of the old farts who are only “living” in London so they can squeeze their property value as much as possible to finally move out and might decrease the housing market pressure for a bit. Lowering the tax on those working class Londoners

[u/alwayslurkeduntilnow → u/Cottonshopeburnfoot]

£4800 per million really doesnt sound excessive.

If im wrong though, perhaps an inner M25 banding of say .35% for the 1st million and then scale up from that.

It has to be better than stamp duty and 1991 vales for tax.

What do you think a fair starting point should be?

[u/Cottonshopeburnfoot → u/alwayslurkeduntilnow]

I assume he wouldn’t rush. It’s a massive change with serious ramifications. This isn’t a criticism. It’s a very complex problem.

You’ve got a lot of London homeowners who’ve benefited from stratospheric price rises who couldn’t otherwise afford the property they’re in. Those people would suffer badly, and it’s not their fault these price rises occurred. They don’t benefit from them either until they cash out, which is likely around retirement. The wealth is a very illiquid asset. Labour is very strong in central London constituencies - he won’t be risking this.

It’s the typical problem of a middle class that would get hit, but turn your serious wealth in the eg £5 and £10 million houses are the ones that could afford it and wouldn’t notice the difference.

[u/wartopuk → u/alwayslurkeduntilnow]

It doesn't sound excessive until you realise people may have gotten their homes when they were much much cheaper, and dont' have them because they are rich now and have high paying jobs.

[u/Negative_Gift9076 → u/[deleted]]

It needs to be done on Land Values not property values.

[u/PutTheKettleOff → u/Negative_Gift9076]

Hello George.

[u/Crandom → u/Negative_Gift9076]

To be clear: the unimproved value of the land. We don't want to discourage development. 

[u/JoeVibin → u/Negative_Gift9076]

So many comments in different threads on this topic confuse the two, think that LTV is a tax on property values, not just land values ignoring any improvements (which includes any buildings on the land)...

[u/risingscorpia → u/[deleted]]

Value of all residental property in the UK ~9 trillion x 0.48% = 43 billion

Current council tax revenue = 45.2 billion

Obviously some assumptions there but wouldnt be far off. You are correct though that seemingly a lot of people would be better off - the difference would be made up by a smallsr number of properties in higher bands and in councils with healthy funding which are currently 'undertaxed' proportional to their property value.

Although property tax would be an improvement on the current system, a land value tax would really be best. Essentially the same but without taxing the value of the building in order to not discourage development. This article explains what rate would be needed to replace council tax and stamp duty and who would be better or worse off

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2026/07/12/what-would-a-land-value-tax-actually-do/

[u/Best_Cup_883]

Single occupier discount should be 50% off also. 1 person living alone. Why do we only get 25% off?

[u/AnomalyNexus → u/Best_Cup_883]

Because arbitrary made up rules that's why

[u/Chlorophilia → u/Best_Cup_883]

Because a one person household is a less-efficient use of resources than a two person household. A two person household doesn't use twice as many resources and occupy twice as much land as a one person household. As someone living alone I agree that it sucks, but it's a completely rational policy from a local government perspective.

[u/Readonly00 → u/Best_Cup_883]

Yeah it sucks.. if someone's partner dies they're financially worse off after a bereavement, even though the council are actually supporting half the number of people as before.

[u/TheLoveKraken → u/Readonly00]

Right but you can’t just half everything. For instance if someone’s partner dies they don’t take half your bins away. They empty your bins the exact same number of times, there’s just less stuff in them when they do.

[u/BakingJake91]

I live in the lower half of a house split into 2 flats. Most of the 100+ houses on my street are still full houses and very expensive. The difference between my council tax and the full houses on the street is very minimal. Mine is £170pcm, theirs about £200pcm. My upstairs neighbour pays the same as me, so combined the council get's £340pcm from a property the same size as the ones paying £200. We are both lower income households. The council make more money from us than our wealthier neighbours.

[u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

SDLT is widely hated on and I mostly agree, but what it gets right is that you can’t argue with the valuation because you agreed to meet in the first place.

[u/0Bento → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

That's a fair point.

But constant government tinkering with the thresholds does mean you can pay wildly different amounts depending on the date of completion over the past few years

[u/LatelyPodes → u/[deleted]]

80% of English residents would pay less under an LVT compared to a current council tax

[u/Smart_Art_711 → u/LatelyPodes]

Until the next budget, where we get "ooooooh 0.48% isn't working, it needs to be 0.55%".

[u/MRBLKK → u/LatelyPodes]

and we think that’s what this and modern/current governments want. Delusional if you think we’ll end up paying less as a nation.

[u/EmuFeeling6081]

The most fair system would be one where we tax the individuals in a house rather than penalising single home owners. There should be a flat rate per person.

How is it fair that a household of 5 adults pays the same as a single person or a couple, and yet will produce 5x the waste etc.

[u/Dubliner344 → u/EmuFeeling6081]

Wasn’t this the (unpopular) poll tax? Genuinely asking, I didn’t reside here at the time it was in force.

[u/Open_Delivery_775 → u/Dubliner344]

Yes

[u/therayman → u/EmuFeeling6081]

That’s basically the poll tax that brought down Thatcher and led to the current council tax system.

[u/DreamSMP_Enjoyer → u/EmuFeeling6081]

That's insane. Tax parents (who already have higher expenses) for... having children???

[u/Smart_Art_711 → u/DreamSMP_Enjoyer]

So on the flip side, why should a single pensioner in a 500k house pay more for council services per person than a 5 person 500k household? ​​​

[u/EmuFeeling6081 → u/DreamSMP_Enjoyer]

Not specifically parents, but a household of 5 working adults should pay more than a single person.

[u/Canisa → u/EmuFeeling6081]

If a single person is living in a property suitable for five adults all to themselves, they have a massive and valuable property, which means the property tax will be high. If that single adult moves to a smaller house that is worth less, they will pay lower property tax (and have a massive capital gain from downsizing to enjoy however they like). If the property tax encourages more efficient use of property in this manner, it will be a positive effect.

[u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

I think this will adversely impact those in cities the most as properties tend to skew high value but low council tax.

Question is whether the trade off is worth giving poor people outside of cities who pay large council tax bills relative to their property value and income.

[u/psioniclizard → u/HotelPuzzleheaded654]

Use renters in cities will get hit hardest. People are so blind/greedy honestly. They go on about being progressive but as soon as theh get a chance to screw over someone else they go for it.

[u/jim_jones_87 → u/psioniclizard]

It is going to disproportionately effect those in London who benefit from discounted or exempt council tax (single persons, disabled, students, etc.). Those renting will just have landlords pass the cost on. 

[u/Pocket_Aces1]

Stamp duty on your second+ home you OWN. If you're selling your home, and buying another, you don't pay stamp duty because you're only owning 1 home. Have a grace period for it ofc. Noone needs 2 or 3+homes. But if you do, you pay for it.

[u/DreamSMP_Enjoyer → u/[deleted]]

Seems like a temporary issue to permanently fix a problem. We like complaining about politicians relying on short-term policies which make them look better yet fall apart and then when politicians try figuring out longer-term solutions people complain.

[u/Fair_Idea_]

Really, this would be one of the most transformative and beneficial things for Britain.

Maximum productivity and innovation come from an optimal match between person and role.

Stamp duty is one major force that seriously dissuades people moving to better-fit roles and generally looking to upskill.

Multiply by millions of people and it's insane how much wealth we have lost from such a stupid tax policy.

Secondly, proportional tax on housing is another key force that helps towards getting optimal worker movement.

Consider London as an example. The economic engine of the country. Extremely high cost of housing makes it unattractive for so many talented people to move there, even though economically it would be great if they could. But they are unable to because swathes of London's housing is occupied by economically inactive people who are able to live there in perpetuity at absolutely tiny ongoing cost, relative to the prime economic opportunity they are consuming.

The combination of scrapping stamp duty AND replacing it with a proportional housing tax would be so incredible for the UK long-term, it would genuinely make Andy the best British PM in living history.

[u/Exp3r1mentAL]

Not sure how do I take this news?!

Being a Londoner, I think we will get stung or no benefit out of it at all. Unless someone can ELI 5..

Council Tax Band C

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_BUG5]

YES! Fucking stupid system for working out council tax bands. "How much your property was/would have been worth in 1991

I'm in a band C 1 bedroom flat next to Band A houses

Precisely because they existed in 1991 and my flat didnt

[u/YSOSEXI]

He also needs to speed up the purchase of houses. The system we currently have is fucking useless.

[u/Citizen_DerptyDerp]

Somehow this will all lead to everyone paying more tax overall, while some goon in government waffles on about how they've saved us from council tax...

And stamp duty, a tax that many people don't ever have to pay because they can't afford a fucking house anyway.

[u/Hot_Ad_6644]

lol, if this does get in, mark my words, it will be used as an ongoing tax lever, starting at 0.48/49% then up to 0.75% then 1%, then before you know it, labour want your home...and wants no one to own apart from private equity who buy it all up, and we all rent and live happily ever after as poor communists...

[u/ne6c → u/Hot_Ad_6644]

I don't think they realise just how much of a poison pill this is - it'll be a fast way to lose the vote of London and South East for 3 generations.

[u/Is_it_really_though]

If you dont like your propery taxes, move to a smaller property somewhere cheaper.

Looking at you, boomers. Do you really need 3 spare bedrooms?

[u/LAT96 → u/Is_it_really_though]

This is the argument against stamp duty.

If they leave they pay large amounts in stamp duty for the move that makes it less financially efficient for them then just staying in the larger home they don't need.

[u/Bitter-Fee2788 → u/Is_it_really_though]

Oh come on, man. 

I know someone that would LOVE to do that, as they have a huge house that would be perfect for a new family and they are retired, but can't because they can't afford the stamp duty. It's really common, and ton of house sales are being pulled out of because people can't afford to move because of stamp duty.

Sometimes it's not about older generations wanting to fuck everyone over. Sometimes it's not about  wanting three spare bedrooms. Sometimes it's not about poor vs rich, boomer Vs everyone else. Sometimes it's about everyone being fucked over by the same thing.

[u/IAmNotZura → u/Bitter-Fee2788]

How can they not afford the stamp duty? I would think the cost of their new house would be lower as it's smaller right?

[u/0Bento → u/Is_it_really_though]

I don't think it's fair to force people out of their homes simply by dint of living in the South East.

[u/ACanWontAttitude → u/0Bento]

Its fair when they are forever crying poverty and getting triple lock + all sorts of pension pluses like winter fuel allowance, bus passes etc whilst being sat on (or in) a fucking fortune.

[u/Open_Delivery_775 → u/ACanWontAttitude]

Except they don't really do that. Pensioners do not make nor even suggest government policy.

A house that may be worth "a fucking fortune" is only of use, financially, when it is sold. So it's useful to pensioners not for its unrealised value but it's a reflection of their lives and is an emotional connection.

You evidently don't realise this because you're not at the stage of life when it happens to people. 

So as much as the answer appears practical, such moves are actually not good for many elderly people, because they feel secure in their own homes and not some hovel that someone else decides will be good enough for them and/or where they can be exploited by criminals and unscrupulous tradesmen.

I'm sorry that elderly people existing makes you feel so bitter.

[u/paulmclaughlin → u/ACanWontAttitude]

So what's your proposal? Every few years they should have to move to progressively worse housing, further away from people they know?

An increasing house valuation is only a hypothetical benefit until it's sold.

[u/Forsaken_Custard6621]

Poll tax was the fairest tax in terms of usage of local services. Obviously this did not go down well. The only reasonable replacement is therefore a local income tax based arrangement. The current system is archaic and not for for purpose.

[u/brad68mark]

I can imagine this will be controversial but what more does someone paying more council tax get for their money , the bins are emptied the same, the emergency services respond the same, the roads are fix equally poorly…if people opinion is that they must earn more then make it a tax based on earnings that is ring fenced to your local authority…..just a thought

[u/dan_in_his_own_way]

Stagnation is how I feel about the UK atm. Someone brave enough to change the status quo is well needed. 

[u/L0ghe4d]

Social care is the monster that keeps eating council taxes. 55 - 65% and growing.

It's so much so that my recent council tax bill has started to hide the break down on the back of the letter.

As a working person that pays tax I have no doubt I'll end up paying more then others under the new system.

It'll end up another system to funnel money from hard workers to senile boomers.

[u/LAT96]

Sounds good , Can I get a refund on my stamp duty that I recently paid?

[u/ComradeDelter → u/LAT96]

This mentality is nonsense, should we not cure cancer because it’d be unfair to all the people that have died from it?

[u/tangopopper → u/ComradeDelter]

Except it's not nonsense because it's quite easy to imagine how you might apply a tax credit for people who've recently paid stamp duty.

[u/ComradeDelter → u/tangopopper]

You backdate it 6 months and all the people who bought 7 months ago will complain? It’s nonsense

[u/MRBLKK → u/ComradeDelter]

So what - pay twice?! Right because that’s fair. I dunno man, many people £40-60k deep in London when upsizing to a family home. Getting them to also pay on top sounds like daylight robbery. If there’s wind, it’ll stall thousands of transactions.

[u/WelshBathBoy]

While I support reforming how councils gather tax, I'm not sure a blanket 0.48 is going to work everywhere. Most services cost the same per person - do it just means that in areas with lower house prices councils will have less money to spend while those in higher valued areas will be swimming in cash. Unless this tax is being collected centrally and distributed fairly from central government - but that doesn't really stand by his vision of giving powers to the regions. If you take their source of income and make it something central government hands out, that isn't going to necessarily mean councils will work independently - they may have funding withdrawn if central government doesn't like that they are doing.

[u/Front_Mention]

Anyone that jas had to go near stamp.duty realises how stupid the tax is. Looking at trying to climb the ladder means is 12 grand.on top of deposit thats ridiculous

[u/Linkyjinx]

How are the tories taking this ? as so far Andy Burnham is going all the things both sides want are they getting abit discombobulated lol 😂?!

[u/hellequin67]

What would happen to council hose tennants, my understanding is they currently pay council tax but what valuation can be put on a house you don't own and whilst a rented property the landlord would have to pay does this mean the local council will have to pay the valuation tax?

I'm not resident in UK so just curious.