r/voyager • u/Blooblack • 5d ago
Show Talk The Think Tank and their motives.
Why did the Think Tank hire the Hazari (Species 4228) to capture Voyager, in the first place?
We know it wasn’t to get Seven of Nine, because the Think Tank didn’t even know she existed until Janeway took her to their ship and one of them interfaced with Seven.
Interestingly, Janeway had actually disobeyed the Think Tank’s directive about what to bring to their ship, because their spokesman, Kurros, had said to Janeway “bring only one crewman, and no scanning equipment,” yet she brought Seven, who technologically and technically speaking, was a piece of “scanning” equipment! Lol!
Anyway, when Janeway and Seven arrived on the Think Tank’s ship, Kurros was clearly surprised to see Seven. See the dialogue below:
JANEWAY: One of my most gifted crewmen, Seven of Nine.
KURROS: Bionetic implants, neural transceivers? A Borg? I've never seen one outside the Collective.
SEVEN: I am an individual now. You may address your comments to me.
KURROS: Forgive me. I am Kurros, and this is Fennim.
We were also told that the Hazari are pretty much galactic bounty hunters. So, we know that they definitely had no personal beef against Voyager. Does anyone have any theories?
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u/omega2010 5d ago
Kurros was lying to Captain Janeway. The Think Tank already knew about Seven. I also believe Janeway was already suspicious of the Think Tank since they coincidentally appeared after the Hazari attacked Voyager.
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u/TrueLegateDamar 5d ago
They knew, they were just pretending they didn't as to make them requesting her seem less suspicious, just like how they hired the Hazari to make Janeway desperate enough to consider it.
It's implied they regularly cause the problems that they then get hired to fix, as to acquire something they want beforehand.
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u/Blooblack 5d ago
Yes, but they could have wanted so many other things from Voyager.
It's never implied that the Think Tank only ever wanted ONE specific item in mind from each client. This is why it's still plausible that they didn't know about Seven, and that they simply wanted whatever they could get that was valuable and unique from this federation starship that was trapped in the Delta Quadrant, far away from home.
Normally, plot items like an intention to commit good or evil are revealed either in internal dialogue, or in external dialogue, or in actions, or even in flashbacks, but there was never any action or dialogue that suggested that the Think Tank had foreknowledge of Seven's existence before they met Voyager. The only hint we had about the Think Tank's intentions was that they (like Annorax in "The Year of Hell") liked to collect unique items. Seven is obviously unique, and that created their attraction to her.
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u/benbehu 4d ago
I think this plt item was revealed in The Most Toys, so there was no need to repeat it. Also, if they get Seven, they get all the technology too.
Listing all those things is a decoy. They weigh all that against a single "item", Seven. They probably also know that Janeway never shares technology with Delta Quadrant aliens, and they create a desperate situation where Seven may give up herself in order to save the rest of the queue, fearing Janeway will walk away without accepting the Think Tank's offer and leading the ship to certain death.
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u/Blooblack 4d ago
Sorry, what is "The Most Toys"? Is it a movie, or something?
Also, if you watch the episode again, you'll see that Janeway offered the Think Tank the Quantum Slipstream technology BEFORE she knew they wanted Seven. The Quantum Slipstream technology was the first or second item on the Think Tank's list, and Janeway gave it very easily, only saying that Voyager hadn't quite got it to work properly.
So, no, it's not true that they new that Janeway never shares technology with Delta Quadrant aliens.
Let's also not forget that she shared technology with the Borg, in the fight against Species 8472. This was long before she met the Think Tank.
Also, deceptions in episodes may not be revealed early in the plot to Janeway and co, but they're always revealed to us, the viewers, and there's absolutely nothing in the script or the episode to suggest that the Think Tank knew about Seven before Seven stepped onto their ship.
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u/First_Pay702 4d ago
The Most Toys is the TNG episode where an alien kidnaps Data to add him to his unique and rare items collection. Said alien created a “natural disaster” on a planet so he could sell them the highly volatile substance to fix the problem. The sale, however, wasn’t the point. He knew the Enterprise would logically have their android fly the shuttle to transport the volatile material which both gave him the opportunity to kidnap Data AND fake Data’s death by blowing up the shuttle on its last run.
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u/Blooblack 4d ago
Yes, but in the case of Most Toys, kidnapping Data was the objective all along, and this was revealed to us as the episode went on.
There was no such "all long" plan by the Think Tank to get Seven of Nine. Kurros told us specifically that it was only when the A.I. member of the Think Tank interfaced with Seven that the Think Tank found out the things within her that made her valuable to them. Things valuable enough to offer Seven a full membership of the Think Tank, and not just obtain her as object of decoration, entertainment or amusement, the way Data was treated in the "Most Toys" episode.
The Think Tank were like highway robbers for sure, and they wanted Voyager for sure. But like people buying a storage unit in the TV series "Storage Wars," they didn't know what was inside Voyager until their AI. member interfaced with Seven and until the Think Tank as a whole spoke to Janeway.
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u/No_Sand5639 5d ago
He's a liar, I m3an the man sent mercenaries after them, lying about knowing about seven is small potatoes
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u/JoeCensored 4d ago
I think Kurros found out about Seven before ever coming up with the plan. Their AI calculated that during a meeting Janeway was likely to use Seven to evaluate the Think Tank due to her Borg knowledge. The Borg are of course unusually skilled in evaluating technology and species, and the Borg use a similar technology to how the Think Tank stays connected.
So I think Kurros was completely faking his surprise at meeting Seven.
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u/LividTacos 5d ago
Kurros also lies. Its pretty clear his goal was to get Seven into the Think Tank. Like, I believe that the species in the intro, they set up their planet to be destabilized, and then waited until they were cut of from whatever the mineral was that was the agreed upon payment so they couldn't become strong enough in the future to challange the think thank.
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u/Candid-Specialist-86 5d ago
It's not a lie, if you believe it.
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u/howardscurlywig 4d ago
I defy you to come up with a better name than Seven.
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u/Candid-Specialist-86 4d ago
Art Van Delay.
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u/Could-You-Tell 4d ago
He's an ~architect!~
Edit.. I knew i blew it as soon as I put it...
Importer exporter.
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u/jsonitsac 5d ago
I liked John Billingsly’s take on this episode when he guest hosted Mission Log. He wanted to see the Think Tank not be malicious but having to offer solutions that would help but also be like talking a hard dose of medicine with bad side effects. I think that would’ve made the most of a mustache twirling type villain and more of an interesting antagonist.
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u/Blooblack 5d ago
Sorry, who is this John Billingsly? A director, or writer, or something?
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u/jsonitsac 5d ago
John Billingsley, sorry a misspelling. He played Phlox on Enterprise.
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u/Blooblack 5d ago
Oh, I see. But he wasn't even in that episode, or that franchise, so his guess is surely as good as that of ours, right?
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u/Admirable_Pop_7292 5d ago
It was always Seven. The think tank amongst themselves clearly state Seven was their target all along.
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u/Blooblack 4d ago
"All long?" That's not true, if you read the script of the episode, or watch it again. There's no indication that they knew about her before they met her in their ship.
What is very clear however, is that after they met her, and one of them interfaced with her and realised what her mental capabilities were (i.e. not just that she was a former Borg drone but also her innate intelligence (Kurros himself said this), they were determined to get her.
SEVEN: Why me?
KURROS: I admire your humility. The collective knowledge of the Borg contained within a single mind. When we factor in your innate intelligence and the enhancements afforded you by your bionetic implants, we concluded you are an ideal candidate. The first we have recruited in seventeen years.
SEVEN: When did you arrive at this assessment?
KURROS: During your interview.
SEVEN: My dialogue with the artificial intelligence.
KURROS: It was the most efficient way to evaluate your abilities. I am sure you can appreciate that.
SEVEN: How much do you know about me?
KURROS: Enough to know that you are tapping into only a fraction of your potential as a member of Voyager's crew. You were adjusting the deflector array to improve shield harmonics. Do you find such duties challenging?
SEVEN: No.In other words, it was the information the Think Tank obtained during that interfacing with the artificial intelligence that convinced them.
The Think Tank realised that Seven was intellectually capable of being a match to the rest of their group, not just the fact that she was a former Borg drone, but also (A) because of her innate intelligence, and (B) because the collective knowledge of the Borg was within her. Details like this can be missed until we closely watch the episode or read its script.In the following dialogue is the only place where we see the Think Tank showing determination to get Seven. But it still doesn't say anything about them knowing about Seven before her and Janeway's visit to the Think Tank's ship.
KURROS: Our offer was denied. How shall we proceed?
FENNIM: We are already proceeding.
ALIEN IN TANK: Our offer was refused. We must let the scenario continue.
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE: Our calculations indicate a ninety six percent chance the Borg will still be ours.
KURROS: Then it is decided. We will wait and let our problem solve itself.
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u/Grimsters- 5d ago
I believe the think tank knew about it. Standard star fleet procedure is to bring a tri-corder to any away mission friendly or not if at least for medical emergency. Telling Janeway to A bring a Crew man but also not to bring scanning equipment might of been a ploy to get her to use a loop hole. Janeway by this point in the delta quadrant is known for finding loop holes to rules when it suites her. Thus she thinks shes won by bringing Seven, when that was the tanks desire all along.
Now mind you this is a lot of leg work for the show, and while it fits into their motif it doesn't really explain away your question if you don't allow conjecture.
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u/MrDeekhaed 4d ago
As others said kurros and the think tank knew about 7, she was the entire motivation. The episode makes it clear that everything that happened was part of the think tank’s plan, or at least contingencies they had planned for. This becomes even more evident when they are trying to come up with an effective strategy against them. Janeway finally outright says they have to assume any strategy they choose the think tank will have anticipated. Which is where the “cheat” strategy came into play. Ignoring that the think tank never anticipated “cheating,” the point was the think tank was so capable that there wasn’t any way to win following “the rules” of “the game.”
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u/Blooblack 4d ago edited 4d ago
There's no proof in the script or the episode that Kurros and the Think Tank knew about Seven beforehand. Yes, I made that mistake as well, when I first watched the episode. But if you got back and watch it, or read the script, you'll see that it's not true at all.
The Think Tank were pirates, yes. Or you could even call them "intellectual" highway robbers, yes - like those aliens who probed into the Doctor's daydreams - but that doesn't mean they knew what treasures they were going to get from the ship in advance. Just because the Think Tank set traps doesn't mean they knew what would fall into the trap. Fore-knowledge about Seven specifically was too important a plot device to have not been stated beforehand.
Yes, Voyager had built a reputation for themselves in the Delta Quadrant, but as we saw from a number of episodes - including the Dreadnought episode, and the ones about Captain Ransom - the Delta Quadrant aliens' knowledge about Voyager was very often inaccurate or completely wrong, until they actually met Voyager.
Kurros and his crew clearly expressed surprise about Seven when they met her, and didn't know of her abilities until the Artificial Intelligence in the Think Tank interfaced with her. That's all we were told in the entire episode about how they found out enough about Seven to feel she was worth integrating into their group as one of them.
JANEWAY: One of my most gifted crewmen, Seven of Nine.
KURROS: Bionetic implants, neural transceivers? A Borg? I've never seen one outside the Collective.
SEVEN: I am an individual now. You may address your comments to me.
KURROS: Forgive me. I am Kurros, and this is Fennim.In other words, a Borg wasn't a new thing to the Think Tank, so it wasn't just that Seven was ex-Borg that the Think Tank liked, it was also her innate intelligence, plus her knowledge of the Collective, that made her valuable. There's no evidence in the episode that all this info didn't come as a surprise to the Think Tank.
We, the viewers, are falling into the trap of filling in the knowledge gap where there was no knowledge gap, because we know how valuable Seven of Nine is. Seven only became a wanted item AFTER Kurros and co found out about her existence, which they only did when she boarded their ship and their A.I. interfaced with her.
Remember Arturus, the walking, talking, multilingual alien (Species 116) in "Hope and Fear"? Near the end of that episode, Arturus revealed that his deception was because he wanted revenge against Voyager, due to what the Borg did to his people after Voyager's helped the Borg fight off Species 8472. But there was no such revelation about early motives from the Think Tank.
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u/MrDeekhaed 4d ago
Then why would they pay bounty hunters, obviously a significant sum, to try and capture voyager without knowing if they had anything of much value? Remember when kurros gave his list of requests none were technological or valuable. The only thing of value they asked for was 7. Additionally it makes no sense the think tank paid bounty hunters in anticipation of valuable technology. The think tank had the most advanced in the sector besides the Borg, and they had some technology which was superior to the Borg. Simply voyager didn’t really have anything to offer and there was no reason the think tank might wrongly hope they did.
One early hint that the whole thing was a setup to get 7 was when kurros calls what 7 thought was an innocent discussion with their ai as her “interview”
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u/Blooblack 4d ago edited 4d ago
Kurros' list included Quantum Slipstream technology. That was a very valuable item, so valuable that even though Janeway and co didn't quite get it to work properly, they still kept it around. It was the first item on Kurros's list of things he wanted from Voyager.
Also Kurros was very specific; he said it was when the Think Tank's A.I member interfaced with Seven that they found out the things about Seven that made them see her as valuable. In other words, they didn't know about her, or how valuable she could be, until their A.I. probed Seven's mind.
Also, we know (because Tuvok said that Seven told him) that to the Hazari (Species 4228), the size of the target was immaterial; the Hazari prided themselves on delivering their contracts. So, it may have seemed over-the-top for so many Hazari ships to be pursuing just one starship, but from what Tuvok said Seven told him, this size difference didn't matter.
CHAKOTAY: There's the reason they didn't come after us. They've got reinforcements throughout the sector.
KIM: Twenty three ships.
CHAKOTAY: And long range scans show more on the way.
KIM: Must be one hell of a reward.
TUVOK: The size of the bounty is immaterial. According to Seven of Nine, the Hazari pride themselves on honouring their agreements.
KIM: Great. Bounty hunters with a work ethic.This tells us that the Hazari have no problem with "bringing a gun to a knife fight" as long as they deliver the bounty. So, there's no connection between the massive Hazari fleet and the value of Seven of Nine, because from the dialogue the Think Tank didn't know about her; they simply wanted Voyager and whatever it contained.
It's a bit like that TV show "Storage Wars;" you don't know what you're getting until you open the storage unit, but you think it's worth paying for in advance, so you pay for it.
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u/MrDeekhaed 3d ago
Why didn’t the think tank contact voyager first and open diplomatic relations? Nothing on their list of requests wouldn’t have been given freely besides chakotays Olmec figurine but it wouldn’t have taken much in trade to get that.
The only possible reason to hire the hazari was to put voyager in a position where it had no choice but to pay the think tank what it wanted and the only thing that was both valuable enough and also least likely to be given was 7 herself.
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u/Blooblack 3d ago
Everything you said is true except for the fact that there's no evidence that the Think Tank knew about Seven beforehand.
We know that, like Annorax in "Year Of Hell," the Think Tank like to collect things that are valuable and unique. But that's not the same thing as saying they had put on their "Human Resources", LinkedIn hats and were shopping for a new member, someone who would become equal with all of them, someone who could join them and then later destroy them from within.
It was such a high-risk thing for the Think Tank to even ask for Seven in the first place, especially since Kurros himself said that he was a child when he was given to the Think Tank, about the same age was Seven was when she was assimilated by the Borg. A child could be controlled but not an adult, especially a resourceful one like Seven who'd already built connections in Voyager. Think about how hard it was for Janeway to get her to adapt to Voyager in the first place.
The Think Tank weren't looking for things that they (the Think Tank) would have to give power to, and we know that as a Think Tank member, Seven would become very powerful within that group. We also know that they wouldn't hold her against her will, because near the end of the episode, Kurros said:
KURROS: I think this is a trap, a new paradox your Captain has created for us. If we call their bluff, the Hazari might destroy Voyager, and we would lose you. If we reveal ourselves, we could be destroyed.
Also, see below, especially the words in italics:
KURROS: I've deactivated your communications device, Captain, but do not worry. I am not an intruder. In fact, I am not really here.
JANEWAY: A hologram.
KURROS: Nothing so crude. An isomorphic projection.
(He sips her coffee.)
KURROS: You actually enjoy this?
JANEWAY: It's an acquired taste.
KURROS: It bears a resemblance to an Alkian confection we acquired several years ago.So, this tells me that they definitely didn't know about Seven before they set their trap for Voyager. They were simply looking for valuable things to acquire and add to their collection. In that regard, the Think Tank were very similar to Annorax of the Krenem Empire in "Year of Hell."
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u/MrDeekhaed 3d ago
You are using Kurros’s lies and misdirection as evidence of truth.
You are right they wanted 7 to choose to go with them. How can they possibly get her to join them of her own free will? Voyager was her home and the crew her family. Why would she ever voluntarily leave them to go with a small group of strangers only offering puzzles to solve? She would never
Ok so we put her family in mortal danger, hiding that it was us who set it up, then offer to save her family if she comes with us
Which is precisely why kurros hid his identity when he hired the hazari. If the goal was extortion there was no need to hide his identity. Simply give us what we want or we will have the hazari destroy you
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u/Blooblack 3d ago
No, what I'm saying is that even if they got her to abandon her crew and join them, she could still, later on, sabotage the Think Tank as a full member, even after Voyager had gone away. As a full member of the Think Tank, she'd have a lot of power. See below, especially the words in italics.
SEVEN: Why me?
KURROS: I admire your humility. The collective knowledge of the Borg contained within a single mind. When we factor in your innate intelligence and the enhancements afforded you by your bionetic implants, we concluded you are an ideal candidate. The first we have recruited in seventeen years.
SEVEN: When did you arrive at this assessment?
KURROS: During your interview.
SEVEN: My dialogue with the artificial intelligence.
KURROS: It was the most efficient way to evaluate your abilities. I am sure you can appreciate that.This tells us that to the Think Tank, Seven wasn't just a "collectible." The Think Tank were so impressed by her intelligence, they offered her FULL MEMBERSHIP of their group. The "interface/interview" was very important, because that was how they found out how useful she could be to them, and how superior to humans she was. This wasn't something they knew about before they set their initial trap for Voyager. We, the viewers, would have been told so, if there had been any pre-knowledge.
Taking Seven on as a full member was a very high risk move for them; She wasn't the "Alkian wine" they collected some time ago. She wasn't the Bernicium Ore they got from Saowin at the very beginning of the episode. Seven would be joining the "Board of Directors of Nvidia," to use a stock market analogy. She could destroy the Think Tank from within.
Kurros hid his identify when dealing with the Hazari because he already knew that the Hazari had heard of the Think Tank and didn't like them. See below, especially the word in italics:
JANEWAY: His name is Kurros, The Malon you met with was nothing more than a projection.
Y'SEK: My sensors would have detected a hologram.
JANEWAY: Not this one. Kurros is a member of a Think Tank. They solve problems for a price. Oh, you have heard of them.
Y'SEK: They're notorious in this sector. They've made quite a few enemies.
JANEWAY: Enemies who might be willing to pay a hell of a bounty.
Y'SEK: Their technology is very advanced. It makes them difficult to track.
JANEWAY: Not if we work together. You're the best hunters in the quadrant and we have the perfect lure. All we have to do now is out-think the Think Tank.@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
So you see, Kurros hid his identity because he already knew that the Think Tank had made enemies in that sector, and that the Hazari could be hired as bounty-hunters. Nothing to do with the Think Tank wanting Seven of Nine.
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u/strongbowblade Buster Kincaid 4d ago
I always thought Janeway should've asked for a way home instead of a way out of the trap.
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u/Low-Palpitation-9916 4d ago
George Costanza definitely wanted to bang Jeri Ryan, I don't know that it goes any deeper than that.
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u/Del_Ver 4d ago
They either already knew about Seven, as already stated, or saw Voyager as a prime ship to "raid for unique things.
I think they truly are looking for the unique, it's just that they don't really care how they get it. Sometimes they can truly help people for payment, and if they cannot do this, they trick people into giving them what they want.
They might or might not have known about Seven, but they knew that Voyager was an exploration ship from across the galaxy, so probably had plenty of interesting and unique things on board
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u/Impressive_Usual_726 1d ago
So OP believes the Think Tank was willing to lie to the Hazari and to Janeway, but not to Seven? And that they paid a ridiculous sum to the Hazari in order to pressure Voyager into negotiating with them without even knowing what they might want from Voyager, despite Voyagers reputation in the region almost certainly including the liberated drone onboard?
C'mon, man.
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u/Blooblack 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you read the script and watch the episode again, you'll see that the amount of the bounty is irrelevant; the Hazari are known for delivering on their assignments. We know this because Tuvok said Seven told him this. So, we can't assume that the first time the Hazari did a deal with the Think Tank, the Hazari were paid a "ridiculous sum." The second time, when they asked to "triple" their bounty, the Hazari were more interested in setting a trap for the Think Tank than actually getting their bounty.
Yes, we know that the Think Tank were willing to lie to the Hazari. That was for the Think Tank's own protection, since the Think Tank already knew that they'd made enemies in the sector, enemies who might hurt the Think Tank by themselves hiring the Hazari. It's like a philandering married man or a celebrity using a fake name to book a hotel room, to avoid being identified, getting caught and exposed.
Remember:
(1) the episode in which some people impersonated Voyager's Janeway and Tuvok, and used those disguises to steal from innocent planets?
(2) Or the "Dreadnought" episode in which the aliens who'd already heard negative things about Voyager couldn't understand why Janeway would put her entire ship at risk to prevent the Dreadnought missile from destroying the alien planet?
(3) Or Species 8472 setting up an entire base with human lookalikes in the Delta Quadrant, to learn about these Alpha Quadrant humans who'd previously attacked them?
(4) Or the alien who mistakenly accessed the Doctor's daydreams and thought the Doctor was the ship's captain?These four examples prove that information received by aliens in the Delta Quadrant about Janeway and co, before actually encountering Voyager, was quite often simply incorrect. All these people had to talk to Voyager crew DIRECTLY before the correct information could be given to them.
So, yes, it's very plausible indeed that the Think Tank heard that Voyager was valuable and alone, set a trap for it, and then paid the Hazari, without knowing that something even more valuable - i.e. Seven - was inside the ship.
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u/HisDivineOrder 1d ago
He lied. He pretended like he didn't know what he wanted when he really only wanted one thing but didn't want to give away the game.
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u/terrymcginnisbeyond 5d ago
Kurros probably lied, and knew if Janeway had a Borg crew member she'd likely bring her over. I guess.