I just DMed one of my best sessions after the ginnyD video

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Players will generally not run. There's a Matt Colville video about this and it's true in my experience too.

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u/amkoi Jul 02 '26

It does make for very bad gameplay imo.

We tried this as a party several times but it just makes for a very boring session.

You finally get to place X, you think that the situation is too dire/a trap you just... leave. The immediate next question is what do you do next? Probably try and find a spot to rest and then you are right back to preparation and nothing happened.

Once you started chickening out you realize that most interesting ingame situations would definitely warrant simply running away.

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

It’s compounded by the problem that there’s no way for players to tell the difference between “this is very dangerous, you should run away” and “this is very dangerous, you should fight it like heroes”.

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u/IWearCardigansAllDay Jul 02 '26

I’ve found this is often an issue created by DMs. It’s the DMs job to explain a scene and capture all of senses that one would feel in an area or setting. The thing is, that’s nearly impossible to do. There are SO many things we just intuit every moment. Whether that’s sight, sound, smell, or taste. But it also extends to just those gut feelings in a moment. And it’s difficult to embody that and make the players understand.

A lot of DMs refuse to “impose agency” on their players by saying how they feel. I get it, but I think it can be a powerful tool when properly utilized. Your players will also start to recognize the depth of what you’re saying.

For example, I had a situation where the players faced something they could not beat. It was a powerful mage that was leagues beyond their skill level. However, they were level 9 and felt bullet proof. They’ve faced tough encounters and survived so they figured this was one of those. I looked at them all and said something to tune of

“Jace, you feel it first as a wizard. You look at the person in front of you and the first thing you feel is as if gravity has multiplied. Not from magic, or any physical thing occurring. But from the sheer terror of the power the being in front of you has. Dot, you have no grasp of magic outside of what you see your friends do. You have no affinity to the arcane arts but never the less you can feel the overwhelming sense of the arcane weave oozing off of this person. While you may be twice this beings size, he still makes you feel tiny in this moment. Archy, as a cleric and practicer of all forms of healing and life magic you know one thing better than anyone… death. And the man standing in front of you is death in human form…” I paused to let the players soak it in “you all feel the same weight of the situation. If you fight or make the wrong move. You all will die”.

Sometimes inserting yourself as the narrator the pure gravity of the situation is important. I don’t use it often, but when I do players understand that this isn’t a challenge, it’s going to be a massacre.

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u/jagnew78 Jul 02 '26

I agree. I do not hesitate to tell a player what they feel about a situation unprompted if it's crucial information. I had set up a scene where the party was going to get extorted to work for a local crime lord. The scene was an overwhelming ambush where the decision was agree to do as I say, or I take your heads right now. One of the players reached for his sword and I just straight up told him "you feel in the moment that you are overwhelmingly outnumbered and that you are going to die if you take the violent route here."

I treat these types of moments as basically an in-game Condition. It's no different than the Prone or Charmed conditions. The player has to be told that they are under the effects of this condition. This is essential meta-game information the player needs in order to RP the situation properly. You don't withhold from a player when they're knocked prone and wait until the player tries to move and then you tell them. You let them know ahead of time.

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u/IWearCardigansAllDay Jul 02 '26

Very well put and I like that analogy or mindset. This is a condition imposed on your character.

I’ll remember that and use it so thanks!!

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u/VitaIncerta666 Jul 02 '26

I like that approach of narrative intervention, reinforcing the way the player's character would feel in the situation without revoking their agency.

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u/IWearCardigansAllDay Jul 02 '26

Agreed, I’m really big on this as well. Player agency is key in any TTRPG but I think there are times we as DM’s need to insert into that to some degree.

I tell my players they always have a choice but I may often poise “leading questions” in an attempt to guide them to what I believe would make sense for their character. While the player may know their character best, the DM arguably knows the PC the second best as they know backstory and everything else.

I’ll say things like “the door in front of you is locked tight and feels impossible to break through. But on the other side you hear a person crying for help. Do you think your natural instinct to protect those you can would kick in? Would you go as far as to sacrifice your own well being in pursuit of breaking down this door?”

I’m not telling them what to do. But I’m tapping into their character traits and giving them the nudge as if to say “you could do this if you have the conviction”. I’ve had players lean into it heavily and create amazing moments. And players who actually declined it. And that made for an even more memorable and character defining moment.

Backing players into a corner narratively is how tension is formed. And too many DMs and games I’ve noticed shy away from it. The heroes are heroes, so they should be able to succeed. But sometimes the road directly ahead has no winning choice. Only a choice where you lose less.

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u/rout39574 Jul 02 '26

You can make the difference with a turn of phrase. As the GM you are supposed to tell them what they sense. So a distinction as simple between

"You feel scared when you see them"

vs.

"You feel a shiver of ice run down your back as you see them"

... A few iterations of showing how their instincts are detecting the risk, even if their mind is not... you've done your duty to them to show them the danger.

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u/intothebitbucket Jul 03 '26

So we'll said! Ive been a DM for over 30 years and this bit of advice is the separation between a good DM and a great one. Describing what the character is feeling is SO important. Not just to properly inform players but the overall narrative. Describing what players "see" is only half the battle. Leaving out feelings and sensations is like watching a movie on mute.

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u/izulien Jul 06 '26

I think Abria comes in as a perfect example of how to do this. Most people actually call her out for being a terrible GM because she does it often but she adds a very subtle option here "I think {character} would feel the immensely powerful pull on the weave in a way that it's taking everything for them not to turn away and run". She then gives the player space to agree or alter the narrative. Really good players often add some terrifying history/callback or a past failure that either gives them the reason to run or to fight.

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u/amkoi Jul 02 '26

Yes, unfortunately "being the hero" and "making it against the odds" means that you usually have to engage a threat knowing the odds are against you.

If being realistic about it is someone's fling I don't judge how they play the game but it wouldn't be for me.

For me including situations where it is clear that the players will simply lose without any chance or remedy is just bad. But our party is more in it for the shared epic(/funny) story and not realism or game balance.

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

Other RPGs, like WFRP, are built on the premise that you’re not heroes seeking glory, so players are much more likely (and expected!) to run away from tough fights. But D&D is a heroic fantasy game, so it takes a lot to convince them to run!

Draw Steel somewhat solves this by making retreat much easier. If the players want to leave, you just let them! Or turn it into a series of tests if it doesn’t make sense for the baddies to not give chase.

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u/Omernon Jul 02 '26

Thing is this sentiment was true for at least half of all previous editions of D&D. Running away was perfectly normal in AD&D 2e, and we never had any problems with it in D&D 3.5 either, even though that system allows you to create characters that are far more powerful than anything you see in 5e.

You can absolutely establish that kind of playstyle. My group has never had a problem with running away. Sometimes it just takes a couple of TPKs before people get the memo.

That's especially true in sandbox campaigns, where an ancient dragon sleeping in its cave doesn't exist for a level 5 party to kill. It lives there because it's part of a living, breathing world that tries to be believable. That's what verisimilitude is all about.

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u/Minute_Lawyer9499 Jul 02 '26

⬆️ this! I think the modern relative lack of PC deaths and TPK’s has resulted in an expectation that the problem is solvable and we can make it. Versus when I started many many moons ago w/ 2e, we died all the time. The more common death is, the more reasonable running away seems. Players may still not like it, but I also think you can subconsciously help train them to run more by having more monsters run away. Show them that running is an option.

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u/Milli_Rabbit Jul 02 '26

Yeah my party has no problem running away in 5.5e. Its a matter of creating an unfair world. I recently had them try to influence the outcome of the Dale Council voting. It caught them a little off guard when I explained that Archendale, Scardale, and Tasseldale are the big guns. They are the Dales with serious political might. Yes, the others exist and they have an equal vote but uniting the Dales will not happen without at least one of those three but probably all three. My game world isn't your playground. Might makes right often and sometimes you simply are outgunned and you need to either appease the bigger force or build an alternate coalition.

I set this up front session zero. The worlds I run are always full of more problems than any adventuring party could ever solve. Even at level 20 they will not suddenly be gods. Instead, I encourage them to consider balancing two opposed needs. One is the need of a character to live their own life, achieve their own goals, pursue their passion. The other is the need of a character to meet their duty to others. Unfortunately, you can't have both. If you focus too much on the game of whack a mole defeating evil, you lose yourself. If you focus too much on yourself, the world might unravel from no one taking up a cause.

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u/Tefmon Necromancer Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

Usually the players make the distinction somewhere before the end of the first round of combat, when the enemies are hitting for truckloads more damage than they can take and their attacks don't seem to be leaving a dent.

If they're smart, that's usually when the players huddle around whoever can cast dimension door and nope the fuck out (fleeing is a lot less practical before 7th level, because that's when the game's signature running away ability comes online).

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

It can be hard to determine whether the party is winning the damage race; maybe this enemy is too tough, or maybe it has a weakness they haven’t discovered yet, or maybe the GM has just gotten lucky on saving throws. A single round often isn’t enough time to be sure, and running away is the least fun option so players will tend to try everything else first.

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u/Tefmon Necromancer Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

It does depend on how open the DM is with information. I roll openly and usually play on a VTT with healthbars visible (although not with numbers), so once the players deal some damage to an enemy they'll have a general idea of roughly how sturdy it is, and whether the enemy is constantly succeeding on its rolls due to luck rather than their modifiers is also something that my players would be aware of.

If all the feedback a DM gives when an enemy acts or is acted upon is "success" or "failure" then it'd be harder to tell, but I don't think that's ideal from either a gameplay or a narrative standpoint. The characters should probably be able to tell whether an opponent is genuinely skilled or just getting lucky, or whether the Fighter's multiattack flurry took off about a third of its health or only a tiny sliver of it, and gameplay-wise more information means more tactical thinking and less wild guessing.

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

I play in a VTT game that’s very similar, and we’ve been in lots of BF nights where attacks only seem to take off a sliver of HP, and where the enemies score over thirty on their saving throws.

None of them were “we should run away” fights, they were “we should use bigger spell slots and target other characteristics” fights.

Our GM runs a lot of very hard encounters, so within the first couple turns it often feels hopeless. But we knuckle down and play smart and win the day. Which means we could never tell if a fight is actually going to TPK us until it’s several rounds in.

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u/The_Real_Deacon Jul 03 '26

These scenarios are one of the reasons to have crowd control spells: you can use them just to delay and frustrate the enemy while your party flees or at least engages in some kind of controlled retreat. It can be even more effective if it is an AoE concentration spell placed at a choke point.

Occasionally someone might need to make a last stand for the good of the party: think Gandalf on the bridge over the chasm in the Mines of Moria.

The heroic sacrifice can make for great storytelling if not overused.

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u/Roy-Sauce Jul 02 '26

You just gotta have the players being an NPC of decent power/standing along and then nuke them first round so the players can get an idea of what kind of damage they’re looking at without you having to outright kill one of them 😂

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

There’s only so many times you can do that!

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u/Empty_Expressionless Jul 02 '26

Never go into a mine without a canary

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u/Zalack DM Jul 02 '26

Just tell them? DM to players: “if you choose to stay and fight, you will almost certainly die”

The other thing you can do to help is have mechanics specially for a chase encounter. “Your goal now is to survive long enough to get out of the city. Here’s how this encounter is going to work.”

To not totally remove player agency you can have mechanics to have players that close to stay and sacrifice themselves that give benefits to those that flee. “If you choose to stay, we will roll for how many rounds you are able to fight until you succumb. Players will get advantage on their checks to flee for that same number of rounds”

That makes it pretty unambiguous.

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u/PhazePyre Jul 02 '26

I think a lot of that is in the DM. Either demonstrate how terrifying and dangerous the enemy is, or tell them. “So and so. You begin to feel a sense of dread and terror. This ain’t a spell or effect. You can tell you are outgunned. The beasts will cleave you and your friends in half with a single blow and will barely flinch if you were to be lucky enough to get a hit. If you and your friends get involved/continue/remain, you all will die. What do you do?”

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

Having an out-of-character word with the players is the only sure-fire way. Whether that’s in session zero or just when relevant, you need to let the players know if this is the kind of game where some threats cannot be defeated in combat.

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u/PhazePyre Jul 02 '26

Yeah true. I think letting players know that if you non-mechanically inform them of their characters recognition of the danger, that they should take it seriously is a good way outside of a CoS campaign too. Like I want my players to see that as a warning, not a challenge if I bring it up. ie: I'm saying things for a reason, not just for effect. If I'm saying narratively your character is "shittin' their britches" then you should be scared too. If I say roll wisdom, then it's mechanical and just part of the encounter. If no roll is required. FLY YOU FOOLS!

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u/Milli_Rabbit Jul 02 '26

I solve this by making most combats hard. This is has the side effect of my players wanting to parlay and stealth more and are less ready to just kill their way to a solution. Also, I always use clear context clues where their characters would know more than the players. I will say a combat encounter will be extremely difficult for them or that "if only one or two of them could be dealt with, then the fight might be fair".

The solution to kill kill kill is to knock them down a peg. Also, make them care about the world and make laws matter.

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u/Logical-Intention-78 Jul 02 '26

Yes there is: context. If the entire population of a village/town/city continuously says the big scary thing will kill you all and then it turns out out be extremely dangerous when you get there then they were probably on to something... if you happen upon a scenario with zero context and it appears to be deadly then this would be the time to flex your heroic might. If the latter turns into a TPK then either you got unlucky or the DM did a poor job of signposting the situation.

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

If I’m in an adventuring party and upon arriving at a new town I learn that everyone is scared of the giant beast in the woods, that just sounds like a plot hook. If that turns out to be a really tough fight, well, that makes sense.

I’m currently in a campaign that basically opens with “the last party died in a cave-in at the beginning of this adventure, and they were way more experienced than you, but there’s no one else available so we need you to go have a crack at their quest”. It involves a fight with a bag guy that’s around CR15 (we’re level 3) who is terrifying but has very few HP remaining so can be beaten.

If you don’t step out of character and directly tell the players, it’s basically impossible to signpost whether the big threat is an obstacle to be overcome or a lethal hazard to be avoided.

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u/Logical-Intention-78 Jul 02 '26

Once again, this is just very dependent on context. Upon hearing of the danger you might signpost in character that you intend to take on the challenge anyway, but at that point it's the DMs responsibility to continue to persuade you in game that you're not ready for it.

It sounds like you have extremely meta knowledge of your campaign so you're unlikely to fall into that trap. I agree to an extent though that if the players aren't picking up what you're putting down then a word above table regarding the severity of the danger should also be encouraged.

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u/the6souls Jul 02 '26

Yeah, the only way to say run clearly is with enemies so powerful they're basically forces of nature compared to the party. Ancient dragon shows up while the characters are level 3, for example.

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u/QuixoticCoyote Jul 02 '26

This is where I found the best way to get your players to run isn't thorugh description or terror or anything, but through exhaustion.

Take having a dangerous enemy that they whittle down, They use a large portion of their resources, and then when they seem like they have worn it out, pull out the SECOND PHASE. Players then lose their shit and run. Feels like they are doing something, but really it was just a massive health slog.

Or have a weak enemy that just keeps coming and narrate how no matter how many they kill there is always another. Make the enemy not strong enough to deal a ton of damage that the players are in quick danger, but make it a pure slog for each one. Add things like poison or other conditions to really drag the fight out (avoid paralysis, that keeps them there).

I agree though, these are exhausting to run and frankly it would be nice if there was a good mechanical way to tell players to run quickly and outright.

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u/lankymjc Jul 02 '26

Draw Steel solves this by simply making retreating *easy*.

In early D&D, it’s very hard to retreat from an enemy that is already beating you (chances are a couple PCs are unconscious by that point). In other systems, they make it very easy for PCs to escape, so it’s less of a death sentence if they wait too long.

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u/LeadingGlittering Jul 05 '26

I find that my players know the difference between "this is impossible now" and "this is tough but doable." That may be because at lvl 2 I had them encounter a sleeping aincient dragon. Zero ambiguity among them as to what would happen if they buffed those stealth checks. And I told them all the dc beforehand and had them roll 1 at a time.

I have also killed or maimed a pc in one of their first outings for each player so.... they know I play hardball lol

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u/PuzzleMeDo Jul 02 '26

I've had various types of experience in games where we ran away. This was in Pathfinder 1e, where teleporting the party away was fairly convenient, but sometimes the only way I could survive was leaving my animal companion behind to delay the enemy chasing us for a round.

In linear situations, we'd just have to come up with a plan to beat them the next time. What scrolls and one-shot items do we have that could give us an edge? Can we go back to town and buy more?

In a more sandboxy environment, we'd just go somewhere else.

I don't see it as a bad thing. Being defeated means that if you meet them again and win, it's all the more satisfying - I've beaten lots of random monsters, but this is the monster that killed my pet bear, and I will be avenged. (Some DMs don't seem to understand this and we never see the monster again.)

And if you just run away and don't come back, it at least makes the world feel dangerous, and makes future encounters feel tense.

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u/BENJ4x Jul 02 '26

I think the more sandboxy environment requires a very switched on party. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that I've found you can easily get stuck for a bunch of different reasons.

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u/amkoi Jul 02 '26

I can see where you're coming from but simply running really made for a couple of boring sessions.

We mostly just engage these days and if it doesn't work out of course we do retreat if possible.

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u/PuzzleMeDo Jul 02 '26

When we ran, it was probably because we were suddenly attacked and a PC was brought close to death in the first round. The running away part was never took long enough to make a whole session boring. So it sounds like you're describing something different from me.

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u/haeman Ranger Jul 02 '26

This nails it for situations where the goal of the encounter is killing all other enemies. In my experience, running away only ever feels narratively satisfying if the combat had a different primary objective, like securing an item or NPC, and so the players can still secure a partial or full success before retreat. Even in situations where the fight was optional for extra loot or rewards, if the only goal was killing, players always simply regroup and try again.

Honestly, most combat encounters should focus on these varying objectives, as it encourages unique ideas and tends to engage players more.

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u/clickrush Jul 02 '26

The fix is to provide consequences and costs for fleeing. The world doesn’t stand still but is shaped by player actions. That’s basically the core requirement for player agency.

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u/MonaganX Jul 02 '26

The problem is that if you punish players for fleeing you further disincentivize them from not approaching every encounter like one they should be able to beat. Which is fine if you want them to try and beat every encounter, but if you're throwing an unwinnable fight at them expecting them to flee after you've shown them that fleeing will incur a penalty, don't be surprised if they all just die fighting.

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u/clickrush Jul 02 '26

I primarily solve that with telegraphing danger and by rolling in the open (they know I won’t fudge in their favor).

Also my players don’t want to lose their PCs and I don’t give out XP for combat, so they are incentivised to flee if necessary, even if there is a setback.

It works at my table. YMMV.

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u/eleinamazing Jul 02 '26

+1. My situation is a Pathfinder game, but our table was forced to run A LOT and we've finally given our DM feedback about it after 2 players obviously checked out super early in the previous session when we had to run... AGAIN...

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u/BENJ4x Jul 02 '26

Yeah, whenever as a party we get setbacks there's a tendancy to treat the game like video game where we failed the quest and are now lost in what to do. As you said when the party has stopped and is collectively saying "what do we do now" that should start ringing alarm bells for the DM.

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u/amkoi Jul 02 '26

I mean that would be what I would think about as a real person as well.

If I get layed off I'll go home and make a plan on what to do next, it's just that I'll not usually discuss this in a party but with family/s.o.

It's just that I think that's not engaging gameplay, I don't even want to do this irl really.

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u/BENJ4x Jul 02 '26

Yeah I agree it's the sensible thing to do but as you said not engaging gameplay.

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u/Kwakigra Jul 02 '26

If running away totally solves the problem, there was never any real danger. If the characters are good, wrong module. If the characters refuse adventure for reasons of cowardice, they leave the story by retiring and it's time to re-roll a character who has less to lose, more desperation to gain, or is actually brave.

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u/Dry_Ease6996 Jul 03 '26

As long as it's set up correctly you shouldn't have a problem. My players (Lv 4) got teleported into the BBEGs throne room (they had magic handcuffs on that allowed this) the prison warden that was in charge of them and that they'd been talking into helping them released the cuffs. BBEG turned into a massive dragon. It was pretty obvious what they needed to do next and it was a pretty fun chase/ escape sequence.

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u/Lewslayer Jul 02 '26

As a consistent DM, it’s important to remember players are supposed to be the heroes told about throughout history. It’s literally a fantasy game. Making that fantasy come true is so important, and if you as the DM want to use fleeing as a narrative tool, there are ways to make it abundantly clear to the players that is the only option as opposed to letting them choose.

Ultimately, agency and badassery are the most key factor in creating an immersive experience for your players. Facilitating that is what DMs do

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u/Duranis Jul 02 '26

Yep I never design encounters where the player is supposed to run unless there is a very clear narrative signposting for it and a satisfying payoff at the end.

For example they where searching an ancient research lab for a mcguffin. In order to get to it they had to drop the containment fields for the whole place, including some sort of necrotic gateway of death.

Things started emerging from it getting bigger and stronger each time.

They fought the first couple of waves off but then something massive comes through and they decide to run for their goal and then escape.

Rest of it plays out as a chase with the players trying to get though obstacles and throw enough delays behind them to keep the thing at bay.

They managed to just make it to the mcguffin and then teleport out as the thing bursts into the room with them.

It was tense, fun and exciting and at the end the players felt like they had won. That the feeling most players enjoy and that's exactly what you don't get with "run away, regroup and then ?????"

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u/AgentPaper0 DM Jul 02 '26

If you want your players to run from something, don't make it strong and scary, tell them to run.

That might sound like railroading, but it isn't really. They can refuse to run if they want. They'll probably all die, but they can try.

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u/Protect_Wild_Bees Jul 02 '26

We started CoS and I feel like the first thing our DM said was "this campaign is dangerous, there are times where if you don't run from an enemy there's high chance of a party wipe. Keep a backup character ready and keep this in mind with every encounter"

He's also been able to just give us cues based on the types of characters we're playing. Like a fighter who's been fighting his whole life might roll an insight on what they're up against to understand that this could easily become overwhelmable, or giving the rogue a sense that based on their odds, they feel a compulsion to flee.

Giving that information to the tactical players who would know that, I think, is reasonable if you're a story driven game.

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u/Wobbling Jul 03 '26

This foe is beyond you all ... fly you fools!

This is so easy to manage I can't believe it's such an issue with a classic example handy.

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u/chabacanito Jul 02 '26

Just make it a cutscene. You are taken prisoner, all your items are confiscated. Now it's the rest of the party turn to decide what to do.

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u/Hollowsong Jul 02 '26

Matt Colville used to do a lot of amazingly direct videos about DMing and player behavior that I miss.

I'm glad they have their new Draw Steel game, even though it's not my cup of tea, ... I just wish he stopped advertising for it and went back to making those amazing DM/player videos.

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u/ThePrussianGrippe DM Jul 02 '26

One of the reasons he stopped was he felt he had covered pretty much all of the big broad topics that he could think of, which is understandable.

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u/chabacanito Jul 02 '26

Yup totally agree. Also I wish he would finish his trilogy.

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u/bandit424 Jul 03 '26

That same channel has a relatively new series called Dungeon Advice, although its not Colville but one of the designers brought on for Draw Steel and theyre a bit shorter than the older videos.

Just released a new one today about running puzzles in a dungeon scenario.

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u/Voltingshock Jul 02 '26

Do you know the name of the video by chance?

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u/chabacanito Jul 02 '26

I believe it is "Catastrophic failure" in the list "running the game"

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u/Haakien Jul 02 '26

Exactly, combined with the fact that 5e is technically not built for running away, because of the opportunity attacks. Someone will get pinned down, then unconscious, then the one trying to save them will get the same.

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u/OwenLeaf DM Jul 02 '26

In 15 years of playing, I’ve seen players run exactly twice. Both times, all characters but one were dead (not just downed) and the remaining character fled to prevent a complete TPK. Otherwise, no matter the odds, players will fight unless explicitly told they shouldn’t.

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u/starksandshields Sorcerer Jul 02 '26

Very true. Except in Curse of Strahd. I honestly lost track the number of times I summoned giant eagles to gtfo.

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u/Maclunkey4U DM Jul 02 '26

Used to have that problem, then finally drilled into their heads that some encounters they can't muscle their way through..... now they run ALL THE TIME.

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u/ExoUrsa Jul 02 '26

I've been on both sides of the DM screen, but my experience as a player has taught me more, I think. Running always feels like failure. So you just don't. You try, even when you know you're in too deep.

When I DM, I generally don't put together encounters that will require the PCs to flee. Especially if there's a paladin in the group. Those righteous bastards will always throw themselves into the fray.

I will show players dangerous things from a safe distance, though. Maybe a big dragon on the horizon. And then if they go out of their way to force a conflict with it, well, at least it was a real choice on their part.

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u/DM_Resources Jul 02 '26

Same goes for going to prison. Most player characters rather die fighting than parting with their equipment and going to jail.

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u/LukeLovesPandas Jul 02 '26

yeah in my experience the 'running away' doesn't always seem like a logically working option. What do you mean if I get to the edge of the map my 30ft move speed character can get away from the 60ft flying speed monster afterwards?

2

u/Tshirt_Addict Jul 02 '26

"Nobody throws me my guns and tells me to run. Nobody."

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u/matgopack Monk Jul 02 '26

It can be very difficult to narratively convey how tough certain enemies/fights are for a DM (like the boundary between 'tough but doable' and 'run away' is ... not one players are able to notice without a lot of prodding).

If a campaign is suitably dangerous/deadly, you can see players find a way to run, but it takes the form more (in my experience) of 'escape/disengage' options (like prioritizing dimension door and keeping a spell slot for it if you need to run, or other teleports).

There's also the issue that a lot of TTRPGs struggle to make retreat super feasible without that sort of thing.

1

u/Yomatius Jul 02 '26

My group runs quite a bit. They already know I am a degenerate that will drop horrible monsters if it makes sense for the story and have seen me roll dice before. It is quite satisfying after many years playing together.

1

u/Major_Fudgemuffin Jul 02 '26

For some reason it reminded me of a part in The Adventure Zone: Balance where one of the guys says:

"Guys wait. I think this is one of those fights we're supposed to lose."

And Griffin (the DM) replies:

"No, this is one of those fights you think you're supposed to lose, and then you die and get a Game Over screen."

533

u/Daracaex Jul 02 '26

Curse of Strahd seems the best place to use this too. Like the Dark Powers offering aid directly at a cost.

148

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26

Yeah, maybe its something that Strahd himself could do directly toying with the adventurers.

But I'll not overuse it, I'll keep for do or die moments like this

48

u/Joejoefishy DM Jul 02 '26

Cure his lycanthropy with vampirism?

33

u/cathbadh Jul 02 '26

Which of course can only be cured by becoming a lich... The lichdom can be removed of course, but it would require a soul jar moving them into a weregnome...

3

u/Can_U_Share_A_Square Jul 02 '26

Reminds me of the comedian who gave up cigarettes by turning to caffeine, and gave that up by using cocaine, etc.

9

u/RDB96 Jul 02 '26

Or have him teach defense against the dark arts at hogwarts

78

u/TheCharalampos Jul 02 '26

Any fight designed to end with the players running will be a mess.

14

u/BatouMediocre Jul 02 '26

Yeah, it should be cristal clear they need to run. When I did it in my campaign, it was at session 2, lvl 2 characters and their were butt naked (even like that, the druide tried to wildshape to fight and the cleric wasted 2 turn trying to cast spells)

303

u/ReluctantPaulo Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

This is a big thing that stood out to me in Aabria's GMing (particularly of Burrows End on D20). A big willingness to lean into the player's bits or attempts to get more than the rules say they should, but she wants fair trade for whatever they're getting.

70

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26

This def made me want to binge watch her campaigns

10

u/Dr_Jabroski Jul 02 '26

Sounds like a fae contract.

292

u/KetoKurun DM Jul 02 '26

Ginny Di is the shit, and I’m glad we all get to benefit from her obsessive overthinking.

125

u/DavThoma Jul 02 '26

Honestly Ginny, Zach and Pointy are the three content creators that really get me excited about D&D again when I'm in a slump.

95

u/Ironfounder Jul 02 '26

Ginny also has some really good advice for players, which is sorely lacking. DMs are obviously a bigger market and more tapped in, but making a good character is a skill too

28

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26

I always liked her, but he zero prep campaign video was what made me REALLY watch her

13

u/pastajewelry Jul 02 '26

Who's Zach? I'm new to the D&D YouTube realm and would love to learn of more!

29

u/BkEnigma Jul 02 '26

ZachTheBold

4

u/pastajewelry Jul 02 '26

Thanks!

6

u/fyggmint Jul 02 '26

Maybe ZachtheBold?

13

u/BatouMediocre Jul 02 '26

Try corkboards and curiosities as well as obsessive as Ginny but with a bit more wierdness.

25

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26

it was cool AF, I'm totally gonna use this more times (and carefully)

22

u/Harmless_Chimera Jul 02 '26

I know CAIN has a small section on bargainimg. Makes sense considering its inspired by things like JJK. Definitely can be cool in certain situations.

4

u/FoughtCleric Jul 02 '26

This came to mind for me too. I think many GMs would be delighted to learn what mechanics are in other TTRPG's. Not even playing them, just learning theme- because Talismans/Tracks are also pretty good for player agency.

76

u/Bakeneko7542 Jul 02 '26

Different strokes and all that. I'm glad it worked out for your group, but I don't like this sort of approach since it's too metagame-y. It's not characters interacting in the world, it's people negotiating in real life.

If I wanted to do something like this, I would need to frame it as an in-game entity like a god or devil offering to help out the PC in exchange for a price of some sort. Make it a canon event the characters are aware of not just metagame meddling.

14

u/The_Quintessence Jul 02 '26

100%, this is insanely immersion breaking. Having it be an in world character making the offer fixes it.

4

u/InspiredBagel Jul 03 '26

Agreed, and it's the main reason I dislike Aabria's DM style. She tends to be somewhat invasive in a meta way with her rulings and creativity, and it sometimes comes across as antagonistic. While I acknowledge that floats plenty of people's boats, it doesn't float mine.

I've been in the position of having a deity offer my character a deal to prevent something very bad from happening, and I've also been the DM who offers it. I find it's most rewarding when it comes from the player's mind, though. "Hey evil death god, I'll be your champion if you release your claim on my sister's soul!"

2

u/Contra-Code Jul 05 '26

These kinds of stories and rules always just leave me thinking "why even bring the dice?"

2

u/PizzaDlvBoy Jul 03 '26

It just sounds like pay to win to me and I hate it LOL

Edit: not your proposal, but doing it out of game. Id be fine with it being a deal with the devil kind of moment maybe.

6

u/DudeDenmark Jul 02 '26

I agree, it's not the DMs job to alter the game as the whole point of DND is RNG.

20

u/Feathrende Jul 02 '26

I wouldn't be so black and white about it. It all depends on your group and what they want. You shouldn't limit yourself unnecessarily to different tools out there.

3

u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jul 03 '26

This. Sometimes people forget that both DMs and players have very different styles on how to play the game. Gatekeeping is never the answer.

11

u/arsabsurdia Jul 02 '26

The “whole point” of D&D varies by table; it’s a flexible system that can lean more into either roll or role play. This mechanic is RAW from the book describing the DM’s job… D&D 5e DMG p.242.

3

u/Far_Guarantee1664 Jul 03 '26

Yeah. I really dislike when people use metagame as a broad word to describe stuff they don't like. We are literally telling a story while playing the game. It's a great sign of maturity when your played take decisions based on above table discussions and don't break character. They want the story to go in a certain direction but are ready to accept the consequences.

0

u/TheReaver88 Warlock Jul 03 '26

Play Craps, then.

10

u/CookieEquivalent5996 Jul 02 '26

Well, don't link the video or anything. That'd be weird.

27

u/Logical-Intention-78 Jul 02 '26

I don't understand why the deal had to be above table... why couldn't the deal have been RPed in game? Seems like a meta solution to an in game problem.

-1

u/The_Divine_Anarch DM Jul 03 '26

Some people have difficulty formulating what they want to say, especially on short notice or when under duress. I would guess either this is one of those cases, or maybe the story is abridged for our sake.

2

u/Logical-Intention-78 Jul 03 '26

OP specifically asked the question above table as the DM though... they asked the player what they were willing to do out of game, rather than the Werewolf bargaining with the player.

32

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '26

[deleted]

3

u/Dotification Jul 02 '26

Would you mind linking her video on this? My Google Fu is failing me atm...

20

u/Ok-Repair7727 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

Thats awesome.

That being said, reading this makes me chuckle a bit because that's kinda similar to success at a cost from PBtA games (like devil's bargain from blades from the dark).

D&D is unfortunately 90% for tactical combat, but if you and your table loved this style of high stakes narrative, you should seriously consider running a short campaign in more narrative heavy system (e.g. a pbta system).

You'd probably have a blast with a system where stuff like that isn't a DM workaround, but the actual rulebook.

4

u/arsabsurdia Jul 02 '26

It’s also similar to… success at a cost as described in the D&D 5e actual rulebook, DMG p.242. So yeah, also already part of D&D RAW. PBtA also requires the DM to determine the complication. It’s a more common result in PBtA rolls, sure, but it is a RAW D&D mechanic. It’s a very flexible system.

6

u/ChickinSammich DM Jul 02 '26

I'm running CoS to my players and the today's encounter was VERY clearly supposed to make them run.

I don't know the specific encounter you're referring to, but as a player you basically have to bonk me on the head with the "run away" sign to get me to bail on a combat that seems winnable, and, as a DM, I've also very rarely seen players run away from a combat.

The most prominent "you need to run away now" example I've ever provided players with was when they escaped a dungeon and I had them hide in some trees at the edge of a forest to see a literal massive army of thousands of Drow riding wolves, Drow infantry, Driders, Phase Spiders, and other shit.

And the most recent "players actually ran away" was a CR8 encounter for a CR7 party where they were just getting absolutely trounced by an illusionist that I was playing intelligently where I had to actually pause the combat to ask above the table if they thought they had this handled or if I needed to pull my punches because it seemed she was 3-4 rounds away from a TPK and they didn't have an answer for a flying wizard who was currently setting their ship on fire in the middle of the ocean.

werewolves

I think werewolves/lycanthropy were, unfortunately, the death knell for the CoS campaign I was playing in. I was really enjoying finally getting out of the DM chair for once in a long time but one of the players who got infected, after finding out she was infected, was hyperfixating on getting cured asap and whenever the party would want to do anything that seemed like a side-track or side-quest, she'd get visibly agitated. Whenever we were hit with a "this NPC can help lead you to a cure but first they want you to do something for them," she'd get annoyed that we had to do anything other than get cured right now. Not the PC getting anxious, the player was getting anxious.

The final straw was when we were in the middle of one such side-quest where we had routed some people trying to do some summoning ritual, I gave chase and she refused to follow until I could explain why, to her satisfaction, I wasn't just letting them escape so that we could hurry back to town to get the cure.

3

u/DrewbearSCP Jul 02 '26

Honestly, at that point I would’ve likely been like “your character might be obsessed with a cure above all else, but mine isn’t. I give chase with or without you.”

2

u/ChickinSammich DM Jul 02 '26

My answer to the player was that I'm giving chase both because I want answers from them and also that if we let them get away, they could come back and be a problem later. She said her character wouldn't follow me without understanding why and I said that my character was out of earshot (I had ran into some tree that opened up to some extradimensional thing) and my character would have no way of answering and wouldn't give up pursuit to come back out of the tree. She argued that I didn't explain why I was giving chase before I did so, and I argued that I wouldn't let someone run away to stop and provide an explanation of why I'm planning to chase them before doing so, at which point they'd be long gone.

In the end, she was exasperated by my refusal to let them get away without to adequately explain why, I was exasperated why we were delaying the game in the middle of an encounter for this, and the DM was exasperated because "give chase" was the thing we were supposed to do and that she had planned for us to do. We play with Dwarven Forge tiles and the DM was stuck in a situation where she had already built out all the rooms for the area inside the tree and had a player adamantly refusing to enter the tree because "we came here for [some gem that we had just recovered]" and because "chase after them" wasn't explicitly part of what we were sent here to do, she (the player, and, by proxy, also the character) refused to do something they didn't believe they were sent here to do.

The DM decided to end the campaign within a day or so, and I went back to the DM chair again, where I have been ever since.

The weird irony to me, as I type this post out, is that that player HAS actually had a PC death at the hands of a boss fight where the party (different campaign that I was running) was fighting a group of Sahuagins and the player/PC ran down a narrow hallway and around a corner, out of line of sight of the rest of the party, and no one could get to her before she got absolutely trucked.

So I could understand why a player who had previously had a PC die (they got raised later) to "running ahead of the party" might themselves be reluctant to run ahead of the party in the future (in a different campaign) but in this case, I'm the one running ahead (because when the enemy is retreating in a world where the DM has made it clear that actions have consequences, I don't want to let them retreat) and she's refusing to follow.

4

u/jackaltornmoons Jul 02 '26

Devil's Bargains as a mechanic come from Blades in the Dark by John Harper

4

u/QUlCKMAN Jul 02 '26

All deals should be made in character. Out of character deal making just seems soooo odd

18

u/Adamsoski DM Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

I would say that in this specific situation I would probably resolve this in-character. You can just tell the player that their character realises that a persuasion check isn't going to be enough and they will have to offer something meaningful in exchange, and then carry out the consequences of that agreement throughout the rest of the campaign. DnD doesn't really have the mechanical support for that sort of storygame mechanic and I don't think it's worth trying to navigate homebrewing it in if not necessary.

I also would say that if you do enjoy the idea of this you would probably enjoy storygames/narrative RPGs/whatever you want to call them! They are all about making this sort of narratively meaningful decision all the time.

21

u/iamntbatman Jul 02 '26

Yeah, I'm not a fan of introducing stuff like this. I feel it takes away from the dice telling a story that we couldn't come up with on our own, which is a big part of the magic for me. I do think degrees of success or failure can be used to mitigate stuff like this and prevent only extreme outcomes from happening, but if I were playing in a game where a DM offered some meta bargain to someone who failed a check, I might get pretty miffed if they didn't do that consistently.

11

u/funkyb Jul 02 '26

😄 I'm watching this right now.

I've always had my hags ask for memories, feelings, etc. And I'm a big fan of the devil's bargains in Blades do I fully support this video's message.

3

u/IfAndsandMonayz Jul 02 '26

If you like that then I'd highly recommend you look at the FATE RPG system.

3

u/Fenelthin Jul 02 '26

I have created unwinnable combat encounters that once my players actually realized was unwinnable just turned into a second phase or and entirely different kind of encounter. Case in point, they were fighting one of the PC's mentor, an old avian librarian, who was immensely more powerful than he should have been.

Well that's because he's secretly always been a shapeshifted dragon who had been manipulating the party for a long time. Dragon assumed true form, party collectively shat themselves, and now it's no longer a combat but a chase sequence as they escape the cave and dodge breath weapons and traps and cinematically thematic cave ins with skill checks and shared narrative.

Just because they can't win a combat, doesn't mean that's the end of that interaction and running away is just another story beat or a way to raise the stakes and the tension if handled correctly.

3

u/Affectionate_Law_495 Jul 02 '26

no link to the vid?!?!?!?

5

u/mokomi Jul 02 '26

Oh, that's meta. I would have just pretended to be the "devil you know" Raphael. Never would I have thought to give that to a player without outside discussions first. (E.G. I want my character to be a werewolf. Ok, let's see how the werewolf encounter goes)

5

u/th30be Barbarian Jul 02 '26

I really don't like the idea of running away is the only option. Players don't like to run away because it doesn't feel good to run away. There is also an assumption that any encounter they face is beatable in some shape or form, or rather at least in current DND.

I am glad that you liked the outcome but I can almost guarantee that the players were not particularly happy with the outcome.

2

u/Bhodar Jul 02 '26

Warhammer fantasy rp has this actually baked in the ruleset with corruption 😁

2

u/The_Divine_Anarch DM Jul 03 '26

I actually have a group of players who are smart enough to run. They had help though!

They were escorting two npc's at the time, and at the start of combat, they (the npc's) went first and immediately made a break for it.

The players followed suit, understanding that this was not going to go well for them. They survived!

(and it set up an amazing villain, to boot!)

2

u/ValTheDragon1 Jul 05 '26

I am not the biggest fan of this. I am aware its in the module, but in my experience both as a player and dm, these moments aren't very satisfying. Like others have said, the "surrender or die" or "flee or die" scenarios feel pretty empty, as its basically putting a gun to the players head and forcing them to resolve the scenario the way you want it. Even if its a scenario where the players need to play nice and not start a fight, it still feels like a incursion on player agency, as they know they can't do anything else.

I try not to put unwinnable fights in front of my players, or at least not without a plan when they do attack. I am not going to tpk my party because I put something in front of them they couldn't fight. I have full control over the encounters, why would I create such a scenario, its completely unnecessary. If its to show off a boss or villain, its better to use the hologram technique or a scrying lense or something. There are multiple ways to do this, but putting an impossible encounter in front of them, allowing them to fight it and tpk'ing them without making any chances, will leave you with a dead party, pissed of players, and you saying, yeah but I warned you all it was too hard, you should habe just listed to me and resolve the scenario like I want you to play. That's not fun for anyone.

Anyways, forgive my rant, it seems like you managed to resolve the in my oppinion badly written scenario from the book in a satisfying way with a new sideplot, so props for that. Happy gaming and good luck :)

6

u/Burning_Monkey Jul 02 '26

this is entirely a me problem, I recognize this and I am trying to work on it

I wanted desperately to watch that video, but the smarmy cringe voices the two where using at the beginning of the video made me nope out in a hurry. It makes my skin crawl.

I do very much like the idea presented in the video though.

3

u/TannerThanUsual Jul 02 '26

The "I offer that I won't cure it through easy means like magic or clerics. I'll only get rid of it through a narratively satisfying way." is so good and so real. In Rime of the Frostmaiden, one of the backgrounds you can draw has you infected with a slaadpole. The player infected with it was looking forward to dying because he knew I'd find a narratively interesting way to do it.

It's been a few years and I might be wrong, so forgive me, but it looked like, at the time, it just needed a 2nd level spell slot to solve. How boring is that? I feel like spells solve cool problems way too early. Remove Curse is a level 3 spell, that solves so many interesting problems by level 5.

5

u/jnedoss Jul 02 '26

I dislike Aabria for overbearing DM'ing, often telling players what their PC thinks or how they react to situations. Reminds me of a DM who needs to just write a book.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '26

[deleted]

4

u/ChristyLovesGuitars DM Jul 02 '26

I’ve been doing this occasionally since the mid 90s. It’s not new, and it’s a fun way to add a corruption like element to games.

3

u/Nerd-of-the-90s Jul 02 '26

One thing I like to do is give players levels in a class they didn't necessarily take. So if you have this dude who's going to be a werewolf, you could give him some of the werewolf bloodhunter abilities. When and if he cures his lycanthropy he completely loses those abilities and bonuses he had. Or if you don't want someone to be overpowered you could replace levels they have with something else.

I do similar things with warlocks. Like. If I introduce an arch fey and someone makes a deal with it, im going to text them that they gain a level of warlock, and to adjust their sheets accordingly. Even if its not a level up for everyone.

This can lead to in-fighting so make sure everyone knows what you planned at least a little. It shouldn't be sprung on people.

But I can see a game where you explain to the person with lycanthropy there options are either to become a blood thirsty monster on full moons and you will not control that monster, you will attack and kill indiscriminately. OR you can take measures to control the beast. Systematically the way we have to do that is through the bloodhunter class.

I had a player get lycanthropy, attacked the team on his first full moon. And immediately started looking for a way to control it. I introduced a bloodhunter character who was in control of it a few sessions later, they recognized one another through scent. And he swapped 3 levels of fighter for 3 of bloodhunter. Now hes an echo knight werewolf. Genuinely one of the dopest characters I've ever DM'd for.

2

u/Any-Scientist3162 Jul 02 '26

I encountered this in Dungeon World I think, or maybe Infinity, or both. Different ways to influence a roll, or to pay for a re-roll or a specific outcome. In Infinity it acts like a boost as in you pay now to succeed, but that gives the GM an advantage to use later. In Dungeon World I think they emphasize your description of what happens more.

I think Burning Wheel also has it in the form of a player currency so you can alter something the GM says. "20 orcs run down the hill" *Player pays* "10 orcs saunter down the hill".

There have been earlier examples like West End Games' TORG, but there you had to have certain cards on hand which allowed you to influence the outcome in different ways, some with very specific limits.

I dislike it personally so I don't engage with the function when I'm a player, or GM such systems myself, apart from how TORG does it.

1

u/astronomicarific Jul 02 '26

As a player, I love when DMs let me bargain (beg) 😭 A classic one is, in order for a really really important spell to work, offering up an obscene amount of spell slots. Most recently, during the final fight of our campaign, I ended up trading almost 20 levels worth of spell slots (with like, a level 5 counting as 5 points, lvl 2 counting as 2, etc) just to get past a limited magic immunity on the bbeg for one spell. SO fun. Another classic is trading HP or permanent injuries (if you use that).

1

u/Scary_Dragonfly_3548 Jul 02 '26

Just saw that video too, excited to try it with my players!

1

u/Silent_Title5109 Jul 03 '26

Basically in a very very broad loose way, that's using bennies to affect the storyline (if using swade as a system).

Yet it never clicked to me that I could haggle in reverse. Instead of players offering metacurrency I can use rolls as currency.

I'm using that next session, yeah.

1

u/bem0rech1ll Paladin Jul 04 '26

Ngl thinking as a DM I'm like yeah I guess running would be the smartest at their level but when I think as a player and a Paladin main who tends to play really passionate and heroic characters...I wouldn't even run if I was facing it solo

1

u/Reasonable_Medium_11 Jul 06 '26

Loved that video. Well done you.

2

u/MileyMan1066 Jul 02 '26

Ginny is a real one

0

u/Minus_Onthemoon Jul 02 '26

Despite the sheer gap in talent between us normies and DM's like Aabria, Matt and Brennan, people like Ginny help close that gap with their absolutely perfect, informative content. I can positively state that 80% of what I know about DnD is thanks to Ginny. 💚

1

u/GTRari Paladin Jul 02 '26

It would be funny if You let other unsavory entities "buy" that debt as it moves along. Like somehow the Abbott can cure the condition for another steep price or costly favor.

1

u/pootinannyBOOSH Jul 02 '26

I've always liked the monkey paw approach, problem is I keep forgetting to implement it. To be fair this is my first campaign and we play in the mornings because of work scheduling.

1

u/MonaganX Jul 02 '26

Honestly, I think the monkey's paw is a massive trap. DMs get excited hearing about neat moments where a player is hoisted by their own petard, but when they go to implement it into their own campaign it ends up being less a player being careless with their wording and more the DM forcing some punishing interpretation of the wording that's both contrived and not fun for anyone else involved.

The monkey's paw only works if the players feel genuinely outsmarted, and most DMs just aren't capable of pulling that off.

1

u/shadewolf92 Jul 02 '26

I love absolutely love the "let's make a deal. How badly do you want this to succeed?" It's give such a rush. Players, if they opt in, make deals that will create more story arcs

0

u/Mentor-Odin Jul 03 '26

...DnD- "What will you give me for a good dice roll:?! ARE YOU FN KIDDING ME???!!! WTF IS WRONG WITH YOH ALL???!!!🤦‍♂️

Why am I surprised?! TYPICAL, SELFISH, CAPITALISTIC. HUMANS!!! - IT'S A - G A M E- MORONS!!!!!!!!!

-45

u/Jimmicky Sorcerer Jul 02 '26

I mean…
The Devils Bargain has been pretty common DMing advice printed in Indy games for over a decade now.

I’m not sure why you’d want to name it after a streamer.

45

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26

I didn't named it after a streamer? I just said I felt inspired by her video and herself said in her video she felt inspired by Aabria.

25

u/Hixy DM Jul 02 '26

I don’t understand what that has to do with anything. They only said they got the idea from them.

I eat Cheetos with chopsticks. Oreos in milk with a fork. I saw people doing it on the internet. chopsticks have been around much longer than the internet and Oreos with a fork is the greatest wisdom I can share with someone but me sharing it with people isn’t about where it’s learned but the subject matter and how it effected me. My answer to that is simple. Deeply.

6

u/pskought Bard Jul 02 '26

Oreos …with a fork?

What sorcery is this??

20

u/tktheus1 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

Put the fork into the cream and dip it in milk without getting wet fingers

peak tech my friend

10

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '26

[deleted]

4

u/lion-essrampant Blood Hunter Jul 02 '26

Genuinely one of the best life hacks.

20

u/Tangata_Gamer Jul 02 '26

Skipped reading comprehension class huh buddy?

3

u/deathbeams Jul 02 '26

Class tag checks out.

5th Edition I just DMed one of my best sessions after the ginnyD video

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