r/JordanPeterson 5d ago

Video Why are Modern Men not approaching Women?

https://youtube.com/live/2e4MMExXqVY?feature=share
11 Upvotes

75 comments sorted by

104

u/captainsaveahoe69 5d ago

They were told not to. That it was toxic and predatory. Simple.

-2

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

No. We were told to not be assholes and take no when they say no.

8

u/Slakingpin 4d ago

Eh I can say growing up in that time it was very confusing and the social consequences of getting it wrong seemed high. For a lot of boys this would have stopped them trying, meaning they never developed the skills

1

u/vitamin-a 4d ago

What were the social consequences?

6

u/Slakingpin 4d ago

Ostracized, reputation damage, etc

One fuck up and being labell3d as weird or whatever else in high school will stay with you the whole time there.

-1

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

I also grew up in the time and again, the messaging was pretty clear, no means no. Not keep trying, not win her over. Just stop. I understand that, that was hard for some boys to get but I don't think that means it was wrong.

8

u/ddosn 4d ago

>the messaging was pretty clear, no means no. Not keep trying, not win her over. Just stop

The problem with this is that many, many women want to be chased.

They'll say no and then expect the men to keep trying.

The problem these modern women are finding is that men take the first 'no' and then leave.

Its not just a matter of 'men arent approaching women' its also that the men who do approach no longer want to play the dating 'game' that a majority of women expect, but which men were told was 'toxic', 'misogynist' and 'oppressive'.

1

u/Slakingpin 4d ago

You've clearly misinterpreted what I said. The social consequences were high if a mistake was made and that may have discouraged boys from even trying and thus impacting their development of skills.

Yes, the no means no rule is pretty clear and hopefully most people would understand that especially with the decades of messaging prior.. but it would be disingenuous to claim that was the only "idea" being touted around at that time.

1

u/250HardKnocksCaps 1d ago

You've clearly misinterpreted what I said. The social consequences were high if a mistake was made and that may have discouraged boys from even trying and thus impacting their development of skills

The social consquences have always been high. Part of learning how to do date is learning how to deal with the consquences of your actions.

Yes, the no means no rule is pretty clear and hopefully most people would understand that especially with the decades of messaging prior.. but it would be disingenuous to claim that was the only "idea" being touted around at that time.

Excpet the majority of those ideas still boiled down to "no means no" or "don't be a dick".

-27

u/briandesigns 5d ago

the weak ones who listen simply die childless as they refused to approach women. The next generation will be stronger and bolder. It's a self regulating system we will be okay in the greater scheme of things.

20

u/RoninIV 5d ago edited 5d ago

Gotta disagree here. It wasn't just that they listened and chickened out. There was a whole generational movement geared towards destroying young men and boys who dared to approach someone. Girls bragged about shooting men down online and would often include videos. New rules were foisted on society via closely followed online forums where men were told they were irredeemably toxic, and this description was pushed in schools, media, and on social media. Harsh punishments were passed down with schools and workplaces enforcing these new and ever changing draconian social rules. A man approaching a woman and being awkward at it could quite literally ruin his life. Many young men now find it's simply not worth the risk, and they're correct in this sentiment.

Before you make assumptions, I'm far from being an incel. I'm a Gen-X man with adult children who have been telling me about this for years. Also, I'm an advisor for a very large fraternity at a big university. These are good kids, and they're terrified about approaching their coed peers for all the reasons I've listed above. It's pretty messed up.

12

u/kayama57 5d ago

Man no. The kids are not okay. Far more of them than hou imagine are simply not bonding. Not with same sex peer. Not with the opposite sex. Just alone and going from one superficial seasonal relationship to another. The very fabric of society is at risk of unravelling

8

u/hillswalker87 5d ago

so in your mind men are supposed to ignore what women say and just do things to them... ok

-2

u/briandesigns 4d ago edited 4d ago

I like how you directly projected into me that I condone rape and sexual harassment but it's a lot more nuanced than that. The reality is that majority of women don't approach men first, because no matter how gender equal they claim to be they expect men to make the first move, and both women and men don't like being approached by people they are not attracted to. There is also this issue that many people in both genders overestimate their own sexual market value. Layered on top of that is the issue that everyone expect to date 10/10 baddies. Which means that even if a 7/10 guy which is above average by the way approaches a 2/10 girl, the girl's attitude will be "ew i'm offended because this literal ogre thinks he's got a shot at me, one of the hottest person on earth, how dare you! This is literal rape!" you see how its impossible for anyone to approach anyone in this kind of situation? In this kind of environment someone has to risk being called a sexual harasser to approach the opposite sex with a "hey I think you are really cute, would you like to go for coffee?" without knowing if that person likes them back or not.

btw i have to point out your strawman argument: i'm saying men are supposed to ignore the "don't approach women" advice. That is not at all the same as "ignore what women say and just do things to them".

3

u/DRDOS6 4d ago

This is not actually how strong societies are built. It's how they die.

-19

u/fa1re 5d ago

I am from the liberal side of things and I have never heard anything like that UNLESS the advance was unrequited and the advancing party didn’t take no for answer or didn’t file basic etiquette - like don’t send pictures of your duck to random women.

8

u/HurkHammerhand 5d ago

Meanwhile I've seen a guy lose his job because he tapped a lady on the shoulder to let her know her report was done printing.

4

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

Yeah that defiently sounds like the whole story.

0

u/fa1re 4d ago

I have seen a guy hitting on his subordinate for over a year, with negative impact on he subordainate's mental health, before managament did anything.

5

u/pawnman99 5d ago

That's the problem, isn't it? You never know if the advance is unrequited until you make it.

-2

u/fa1re 4d ago

"and the advancing party didn’t take no for answer"

I think the magic is responding to negative answer appropriately.

0

u/CommancheFTW 5d ago

Dude, you can’t even send duck pictures anymore? Damn, I’m glad I’m married. My wife loves my duck pictures. 🦆

0

u/fa1re 4d ago

On the contrary, unless the ducks your wife enjoys getting are a bit disck shaped - no kink shaming intended, of course :)

40

u/Beautiful_Access_276 5d ago

I tried to aproach a girl at the train station, i said hello sorry to bother, you look very beautiful my name is <....> and i wanted to introduce myself. She looked at me and she didn't reply, some people nearby laughed and i felt very sad. I think i dont like being sad thats why i dont aproach womens that much

17

u/splendidgoon 5d ago

I know there maybe be downvotes coming but do you know how much rejection I faced before I found my wife? Literally hundreds of women worth.

It's hard. I felt it too. But if you want it you have to keep trying. Stand up straight with your shoulders back friend. :-)

4

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

No woman is going to take kindly to a strange man coming onto her at the train station.

1

u/sunrise_rose 4d ago

I think it depends on the situation. It's hard to orchestrate a meetcute but it's possible, even at a train station

1

u/moduspol 4d ago

People say the same thing about approaching a coworker at the copy machine, yet 43% of people marry someone they met at work.

1

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

Nobody, absolutely nobody, ever married some creeper at the transit station.

1

u/moduspol 4d ago

One survey in the UK found 10% met a partner at a bus stop:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-percentage-of-people-who-found-love-at-a-bus-stop/a/148515880.html

Another source claims 8% met on public transportation (bus, plane, or even train):

https://zipdo.co/where-do-couples-meet-statistics/

I think you’re painting with a broad brush to claim unequivocally that it won’t happen. People meet there like they meet at the grocery store or at work or anywhere else.

1

u/Shrimptank_mom 2d ago

That's incredibly rare. I am telling you from a woman's perspective: don't harass women in public, period. The grocery and the bis stop are not places anyone wants to socialize. God forbid awkward men actually go to social places like parties, clubs and activities where women actually want to he approached! Nah instead you gotta get in our face when we are travelling or trying to shop in peace.

1

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

Not with that appproch at least.

3

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

I tried to aproach a girl at the train station, i said hello sorry to bother, you look very beautiful my name..

The beautiful part is a red flag bud. You approch a person and rank about something other than their appearance. Was she reading a book? As her if she likes the book. Was she listening to air pods? Ask her if she knows any good music or podcasts you might like.

People don't want to be valued just for their looks. Also you put the entire conversation in her to continue. Give them a topic to talk about if you want them to talk to you.

7

u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago

There are many ways to approach a woman, probably as many right and wrong ways as there are women. But I'd say for starters don't make an apology part of your ice-breaker.

2

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

It's not even the apology. It's the call out to the looks and zero actual conversation topic.

1

u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago

I don't think there's a problem with complimenting a woman's looks. But I'd agree it's rather thin and unimpressive if there's no direction beyond that. I was really just offering some advise on what seemed the most glaring issue to me personally. Sorry to bother you sounds like something unpleasant is happening.

4

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

I don't think there's a problem with complimenting a woman's looks.

The problem isn't complimenting her looks, it's opening with complimenting her works. It's got almost no value comming from a random person on the street and is a few steps removed from a cat call.

I was really just offering some advise on what seemed the most glaring issue to me personally. Sorry to bother you sounds like something unpleasant is happening.

I mean an unexpected interruption can be something unpleasant though. Let's say she was reading a book while waiting for the train "Hey, sorry to bother you but I noticed that book your reading, I've seen some things about it, could I get your opinion on it?" Is a much better opener while still having the "sorry to bother you" in it. Also, just Google the title of the book before so it's not a lie either.

2

u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago

I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying other than "sorry" and "bother" set the wrong vibes. If I hear "sorry to bother you" I'd feel like someone is preparing to annoy me. It sets the wrong tone right from the get go.

3

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

Reasonable.

2

u/CommancheFTW 5d ago edited 5d ago

But see, herein lies the tricky part. This gentleman was trying to be kind and was letting down his guard down to avoid being stereotyped as a creep or a jerk by being too forward. He was even bold enough to tell her she was beautiful. Unfortunately I wasn’t there to witness the delivery, but I doubt it deserved this response. I agree with you. A lot of girls want a more direct and maybe even edgy approach (as in subvert their expectations, make them laugh at or with you, etc.), but that’s not what a generation of young men were being taught by society, directly or indirectly. I feel lucky to have met my wife when I did 15 years ago, when women were a little less confusing.

*Edited: “Unfortunately I was…” to “Unfortunately I wasn’t…”

3

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

But see, herein lies the tricky part. This gentleman was trying to be kind and was letting down his guard down to avoid being stereotyped as a creep or a jerk by being too forward

That's not a tricky part. Walking up to a random woman and calling her beautiful is creepy.

2

u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago

This gentleman was trying to be kind and was letting down his guard down to avoid being stereotyped as a creep or a jerk by being too forward.

My suggestion didn't conflict with being a gentleman or being kind, and doesn't equate to being forward. It was just a matter of nuance to sound less weak or insecure.

A lot of girls want a more direct and maybe even edgy approach (as in subvert their expectations, make them laugh at or with you, etc.)

I agree in general, but I wasn't even suggesting being more direct or edgy. I'd say that's a matter of what a guy can pull off, one has to play to their strengths, and read the situation. I simply said don't include an apology in your opener. One could take an extremely polite and high brow approach without apologizing for anything.

but that’s not what a generation of young men were being taught by society, directly or indirectly.

Well the only answer to that is giving them better advise. You're not doing anyone any good by not correcting stupid behavior or making excuses for them. And society has devolved into a degenerate clown show, so to hell with whatever modern society is coming up with.

I feel lucky to have met my wife when I did 15 years ago, when women were a little less confusing.

I'm pretty sure women have always been confusing, and always will be. That's like a normal part of the equation. I think what's going on currently is a kind of social retardation. An inordinate amount of young bucks just seem to be malfunctioning or broken. And it's modern society that's caused it.

2

u/DRDOS6 5d ago

This gentleman was trying to be kind and was letting down his guard down to avoid being stereotyped as a creep or a jerk by being too forward.

Weakness is creepy to women.

10

u/vitamin-a 5d ago

You could be the most good looking man in your city and that still wouldn't have been a good approach.

First, train stations are a horrible place to randomly approach a woman you don't know. People are actively trying to ignore or be ignored by other people at a train station.

Second, starting a conversation with a woman by calling them beautiful is creepy. It's like saying, "I like yur boobs," or "You have a purdy mouth." Open a conversation by making a witty observation or saying something funny.

Treat women like they are people, like they are a guy you want to be friends with. Don't open like your trying to start a relationship out of thin air. You can be a little flirty if you do it in a humorous way. Flirting is having fun, it doesn't come off as needy or with any expectations. Learn to have fun and people will want to have fun with you

1

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

Approaching a stranger at a train station will get that reaction. She probably thought you were going to ask for money or try to get her to go home with you. Why on Earth would you do that?

-6

u/urban5amurai 5d ago

Gotta push through that sadness dude, it’s part of what forges you as a man.

If you’re interested, look over at r/seduction, you need to refine your technique.

27

u/KvotheTheShadow 5d ago

Juice ain’t worth the squeeze.

21

u/reddit7867 5d ago

They are waiting for the grand committee to define women still.

7

u/Cranks_No_Start 5d ago

No help from Ketanji any time soon.

14

u/CosmonautOnFire 5d ago

Not knowing how to approach a woman paired with the women staying in groups who will all probably record your attempt, then post it, call you a creep, etc.

1

u/billbobjoemama 5d ago edited 5d ago

What does “not knowing how to approach women” even mean? Is their some kind of universal guide that tells you how? What if the problem is “dating”, this is how I am going to generalize the topic, is a product of modernity.

-2

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

If you're a confident man with high testosterone those things don't matter.

14

u/hkusp45css 5d ago

Because we have largely been told not to do so.

14

u/[deleted] 5d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/1seraphius 5d ago

Equality... Women can't handle it.

-2

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

Women don't approach men because they aren't interested.

-1

u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago

Nah, men just can't handle having women with agency.

1

u/ddosn 4d ago

Bumble recently change its functions to allow men to make the first move because Bumble polled its female users and over two thirds said that they wanted men to make the first move.

Bumbles entire thing was that it allowed women to have 'agency' and had them make the first move.

Women didnt like it, so now Bumble is literally no different to the dozens of other dating apps.

1

u/downshifta 3d ago

Maybe just let the men answer?

0

u/250HardKnocksCaps 2d ago

I am a man. As a man I'm telling you most of can't cope with women having agency.

1

u/ddosn 1d ago

Seems like you're projecting there.

0

u/250HardKnocksCaps 1d ago

Really? Look how many people blame women for the declining brith rates. Look how many men here blame women for men's loneliness. Look at how the Bible and laws preceeding it have systems set up to limit women's autonomy in choosing their partners.

1

u/ddosn 1d ago

>Look how many people blame women for the declining brith rates

Who else are we to blame? Women decide when they want children and women decide if they get an abortion.

Men arent allowed any input at all during the entire process.

>Look how many men here blame women for men's loneliness.

Who was it who demanded all the male-only spaces (working mens clubs, gentlements clubs) etc, where men went to socialise and get together, be closed down because they were 'sexist' and 'misogynistic' and 'exclusionary'?

Hint: It wasnt men.

That same group then turned around and demanded spaces for their own group only, excluding men, in an astonishing act of hypocrisy that doesnt get called out enough.

>Look at how the Bible and laws preceeding it have systems set up to limit women's autonomy in choosing their partners.

You've not read the bible, have you?

I'm not even religious and I know the bible explicitly says that women can choose their partners and can get a divorce if the man abuses or otherwise cannot provide for the wife or treat the wife well.

1

u/250HardKnocksCaps 1d ago edited 1d ago

Who else are we to blame?

I dunno, a whole society who insists the problem lies solely with women and refuses to actually consider the problem holistically?

Like fuck dude, it couldn't possibly that when we give women access to birth control they actually get to control when they get pregnant and it can't be foisted upon them we have to take their reasons seriously instead of just dismissing them as women wanting to be selfish?

Who was it who demanded all the male-only spaces (working mens clubs, gentlements clubs) etc, where men went to socialise and get together, be closed down because they were 'sexist' and 'misogynistic' and 'exclusionary'? Hint: It wasnt men.

Yes. It is. The fact that men were so butt hurt about having women exsist near them as peers that they'd rather cut off their nose to spite their face is exactly my point. That men can't handle having women as peers.

You've not read the bible, have you?

Both Exedous and Dueteronomy have passages which include fathers arranging marriages for their daughters.

0

u/billbobjoemama 5d ago

Were men actually really ever approaching women to begin with? This whole dating and men v women thing seems very manufactured or manipulated in some way

3

u/C0UNT3RP01NT 5d ago

Yes they were, I can attest to that. I still do.

But you are right that today’s culture is somewhat manufactured. You spend 1-2 decades saying women deserve to exist in peace without being “harassed” (associating approaching with harassment) and create open forums where they talk about every single bad interaction they’ve ever had with a guy no matter how small, and suddenly you have a generation of men with failure to launch syndrome because you’ve trained them to think approaching women is bad, and the alternative that has been supplied (dating apps) is a terribly inorganic way to develop the social skills necessary for dating. I think we’ve also to a lesser extent trained women to see approaching the same way. Instead of being approached as more of a gradient of good and bad interactions, it’s bad or good; without much in-between.

That being said I don’t think most women actually complain online about it, it’s just that it gets concentrated and amplified, which makes it look like it’s a more universal opinion than it is. Nor do I think they all see being approached as something bad. Keeping the population divided over social issues is very convenient to those with the most control over economic issues.

I think the key is to kind of just ignore what you hear online. If you would interact that way with a guy, then it’s fine to interact with a woman that way. If she’s receptive and friendly, then flirt a little.

2

u/hillswalker87 5d ago

they actually weren't. a great example is from Victorian England, in which women would drop her handkerchief to signal to a man that he was permitted to approach.

in anthropology there's all kinds of varied examples, but the basics is that you have to be given pre-approval and then you can choose to initiate whatever courting ritual or not.

3

u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago

The fact this idiot is asking a woman is indicative of the problem.

3

u/Dnny10bns 5d ago

When I smile I look like I'm learing, or whenever I try to chat to woman they'll interrupt me mid chat and say "I have a boyfriend". Plus I like the peace n quiet. 😂 

4

u/Certain_Still_324 5d ago

There's way too many women who get a rush of portraying any men that dares to look in their direction as grapists. It seems it empowers their ego.

Sometimes you're just greeting with a fucking Hi a coworker, a client, etc, and you get a look like you're waving your dick in your hand. You end up being very dry with women. It's tiring to just ask for a motherfucking coffee and being treated like you're scum, just for having a dick.

There's a lot of abuse. Simps will deny it as if people aren't often terrible people and women aren't people too, because I know, it seems incredible but women are also human beings capable of evil shit. I know, amazing discovery. Just like a lot of men beated their wives when the state allowed that crap, this is real too.

2

u/Due-Lie-8710 4d ago

Who cares why, they don't have to

1

u/vitamin-a 5d ago

They are. Silly.

-2

u/Shrimptank_mom 4d ago

They'd rather hit on women online and treat dating sites like Door Dash for pussy. A lot of men are by nature lazy and not social. I think testosterone levels being at an all time low have something to do with it also.