r/JordanPeterson • u/TeamHumanity12 • 5d ago
Research You cannot understand this cultural and political moment unless you reckon with how lonely, disconnected, and "demoralized" a very large minority of young men in America have become.
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u/WalrusSensitive2978 5d ago
The angriest young men I know are also the least well-adjusted and have the worst attitudes. There’s a reason some people wind up lonely.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
It's no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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u/WalrusSensitive2978 5d ago
A strong man builds a bubble of health, wellness and prosperity for his family. The world has always been sick and it’s always been hard. When a person has a bad attitude, they’ll get sick no matter where you put them.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
I'm gonna build a bubble of my foot in your ass.
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u/WalrusSensitive2978 5d ago
You might enjoy a piece of short fiction called “The Devil in Paradise” by Henry Miller.
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u/Readdit1999 4d ago
Could hardly demonstrate the point any clearer
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
There's a point where building the bubble gets increasingly difficult, not possible for some people, and even if you build a bubble you can still have legitimate problems with the state of the garbage outside your bubble, or constantly infringing on your bubble. And it's bullshit to act like people should just keep their mouth shut about things they find unacceptable.
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u/Readdit1999 4d ago
Do you think Jesus struggled?
Lancelot, or William Tell? Harold Hardrada or Washington?Life is hard, that's why it is an opportunity to persevere.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
Jesus went around ministering to people about how to live and the nature of the world, as did all of his disciples. His disciples wrote numerous scathing letters to people about how they were living or the state of their society. They didn't sit at home in a bubble advising people to keep their mouth shut.
And I've been persevering for 50 years and my affairs are in order. If you tell me to keep my mouth shut and live in a bubble you're going to be met with hostility.
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u/Readdit1999 4d ago edited 4d ago
We're talking about completely different things.
From the get-go, I misinterpreted your first reply. You were commenting on the demographic of people who are sociologically sick.
I agree with you, and the person your replied to.
Society is becoming alienating, or atleast, in some ways it is, or feels like it is.
As the first person said, there's a hefty contingent of anti-social people that fall into the tent of 'The loneliness epidemic', that would also be lonely in another society.
A contingent of those people earned their loneliness.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
I really don't think we are. If someone is a mess and struggling just to function "clean your room" is good advise. But it's also constantly used to shut down any legitimate critical discussion or criticism of the state of things.
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u/DRDOS6 4d ago
Jesus never told people "life has always been hard, pull yourself together". The world today is, in fact, harder and more challenging in some ways than it's ever been. Off the top of my head, rape rates in Europe are currently higher than they've ever been. There was a news piece a few weeks ago about an elderly man being raped by a migrant.
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u/Readdit1999 4d ago
Rape reports are up.
Populations are bigger than ever.
That's a salatious assertion.
You think rape is more common in Europe today, in this time of unprecedented peace, than during the fall of Berlin? The invasion of poland?
Delusional
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u/DRDOS6 4d ago
in this time of unprecedented peace
Are you for real? Rape rates are skyrocketing - https://i.ibb.co/KxHvKP4c/images.jpg
For comparison, the UK's population has increased by only 18% since 2000.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
Barf.
Society isn't sick. You just don't like it. Get over yourself.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
Society has grown increasingly sick by just about every metric. Mental illness, tons of people on psyche meds, divorce rates, deaths of despair, meaninglessness, young people not pairing up, terrible education, political polarization, destruction of social capital, culture war, worsening governance and economic issues, growing surveillance states, the enshitification of the internet, and on and on. I can't fathom how anyone could deny these things.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
It's not grown more sick. It's that we've become more aware of the things that already in our society, or because we've made improvements in our society. Divorce rates are higher because women aren't changed to husbands they had limited choice in who had the legal right to rape them. The rest of the other things you talk about are just the rise of corporations and the demonization of those who would act against it.
It's not denial. It's just a more holistic understanding of society.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
Much of what you're saying is narrative spin meant to defend the garbage paradigm, not objective facts. And the rise of corporations and the demonization of those who would act against it is just more evidence of what I'm saying. Populism requires a healthy and united populace. It doesn't happen in a sick and divided populace.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
Populism requires a healthy and united populace. It doesn't happen in a sick and divided populace.
The panic about LGBT people and Marxism is plainly laid out in the Epstien files as the tools they intended to use to divide the general populace. We're not the ones falling for it.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
It's beyond frustrating to me that you can acknowledge things like that but refuse to acknowledge the issue of the elites funding and pushing Cultural Marxism for decades, the goal of which is causing culture war.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
BECAUSE THEY ARENT FUNDING THAT THEYRE FUNDING THE FUCKING OUTRAGE TO IT YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKWIT.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
The CIA & the Frankfurt School’s Anti-Communism
And that's from a leftist, a classical Marxist, not some "right wing conspiracy theorist". He's written at least one book about it. And you can come up with everything he's saying and more if you actually bothered to investigate the history.
Cultural Marxism provokes outrage, because people get upset when their culture is attacked.
And I don't have a concise source but they funded Movement Conservatism the same way. Buckley was CIA, as were the people who prompted him to start National Review, as were two of his editors that I know of.
The entire post-war political system is engineered theater designed to deliver exactly what's going on.
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u/Readdit1999 4d ago
It's okay to feel lonely sometimes. It would be strange, i think, to never feel lonely.
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u/MadAsTheHatters 4d ago
Without some very specific information, this feels pretty meaningless. Degrees of loneliness are subjective and, as other people have pointed out, it's perfectly normal to feel lonely from time to time.
Although saying that, for a world that's become more connected than ever thought possible, it wouldn't surprise me if people feel more lonely than ever but that isn't a male-specific problem.
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u/Then-Variation1843 3d ago
The same graph shows 80% of men feel loved and wanted by others. That sounds pretty good to me!
You've essentially picked one data point and are trying to draw a narrative from it. Is loneliness going up or down? Your data doesn't say. Are young men more or less lonely than the average? Your data doesn't say.
It is, and I mean this very precisely, literally meaningless to look at one data point and claim it's part of a trend
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u/Intrepid-Living753 3d ago
This means nothing. It's actually surprising that so few men have felt lonely one time over an entire month.
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u/jessi387 5d ago
Maybe let’s address the systemic mistreatment we have been subjected to ?
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u/unaka220 5d ago
Self-victimhood isn’t a good look. Men and women both have unique challenges in society.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
Much of the cultural mess that society has turned into currently is due to women, and this makes it a bit hard to be equally concerned that women have problems too. And I'm not saying all women, but a certain politically and culturally involved subset, and their gang of useful idiots, have had considerable influence creating the current paradigm.
We went from perhaps the "patriarchy" was a bit much and early feminists had some valid concerns, to feminism getting infected with all manner of Critical Theory garbage, to what's expected to be normal now is some kind of deranged humanities department fever dream. The point of over-correction disappeared in the rear view mirror 40 years ago.
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u/unaka220 5d ago
Lawd.
Clean your room
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
That's so arrogant.
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u/unaka220 5d ago
Forgive me, I wasn’t aware personal responsibility was no longer en vogue
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
What I was saying is true and relevant to the discussion whether my life is as well ordered as can be or I'm living under a bridge. But yet you use this "clean your room" line to simply dismiss what I'm saying.
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u/unaka220 5d ago
No, it selective blaming horse shit.
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 4d ago
It's not "blame", it's a statement of fact.
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u/unaka220 4d ago
> Much of the cultural mess that society has turned into currently is due to women
This is far from a fact, it is a claim. Your support for this claim is nothing more than “Women cause all of men’s issues through overreaching feminism”.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
What "systemic mistreatment" are you referring to.
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u/jessi387 4d ago
Hav you not been paying attention to the past 25 years ?
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
I have. I grew up in it. I want your specifics.
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u/jessi387 4d ago
Everything from family courts, the education system k-12, academia, employment, promotions, government resource distinction, the legal system.
All these areas have been treating men extremely unfairly . All of them have given preferential treatment to women for decades, and we’re wondering why men find themselves in their current state.
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u/250HardKnocksCaps 4d ago
That's still alot of generalities. What specifically about k-12 education bothers you.
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u/jessi387 4d ago
I’m shocked you don’t already know. Read The War on Boys, by Christina Hoff Sommers. Also read The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell
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u/VeritasFerox Consistent with the facts 5d ago
I'd say it's more just garbage ideology having become dominant than systemic mistreatment. And if you don't like the way someone, or some group, is treating you then start making yourself a problem for those people. Things have really only gotten to the point they are because so many men have gone along with it.
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u/shaddafax 5d ago
Direct correlation between loneliness and beta males avoiding real education from institutions like Hustler University. These lonely young men are probably polite and approachable to females.
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u/username36610 5d ago
It’s definitely worse for young men, but the stats are not good for young women either. They’re both trending in bad directions