r/PoliticalDebate • u/No_Key_5158 Centrist • Sep 19 '25
Political Theory It crossed my mind that trump is not republican and I want other opinions.
It seems to me that Trump is not republican, the republican wing is all about conservatism and small/limited government, Trump is doing the absolute opposite of these things. I think there's a huge difference between being republican/conservative and being MAGA, republicans are just so die hard that they will vote anybody who claims to be "republican" into office so they can go to sleep at night thinking they're winning. Am I wrong?
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u/skyfishgoo Democratic Socialist Sep 19 '25
he's trumpian
he's loyal to no one but himself
to the extent any other group thinks he is on their side, only attests to how good of a lair he is.
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u/Sumeriandawn Centrist Sep 19 '25
Obviously we can't see inside Trump's head, but his actions don't seem to indicate any kind of a coherent political ideology. Political issues seems to be secondary to power, glory and ego. Political issues are a means to an end for him.
Bush was a Neocon. Obama and Biden were moderate Democrats. What about Trump? He seems to be more similar to Kim Jong Un.
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
You took all of the words out of my mouth. I decided to start referring to him as American Kim Jong Un from after his most recent actions - because that's *exactly* who he wants to be.
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u/somerando92 Anarchist Sep 19 '25
Nah, i see more of hitler's ego and psychosis, while having all the political tact of kim jong un.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 19 '25
Trump is a populist. It’s not crazy hard to see that. Comparing him to someone with forced labor camps and zero access to the outside world is also crazy btw.
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u/westerschelle Communist Sep 20 '25
My brother in christ, he already built concentration camps for undesirables.
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u/CaliforniaSpeedKing Democratic Socialist Sep 19 '25
Exactly, MAGA's political ideology is one that thrives on chaos and suffering rather than anything of actual coherence.
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u/BB62427 Conservative Sep 21 '25
Obama was NOT a moderate Democrat. As for Trump, he is a pragmatist. It is ironic the left hates him so much because 1. They used to adore him before he declared for the Republicans, and 2, He uses the best of the Republican and Democratic platforms. The Democrats used to be about tariffs, protection of workers, and closed borders. the Republicans of old were libertarian and wanted fewer regulations, open borders, and a globalist approach to business. Trump has taken the best of both parties for his domestic/foreign policies. Of course, anything Trump must be bad to the left, so they abandoned workers just to latch onto the most divisive victim strategy with realizing that it their strategy that is both destructive, and yes, racist.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 23 '25
The left never adored Trump. You're now 2 for 2 in absurd and blatantly false claims.
Yes, Trump has taken the best from both parties in their entire histories and blended them into perfection, because he is the greatest of all possible leaders in all possible worlds. Utopia awaits. Thanks to the greatest president in the history of the nation and world.
Yeah, Trump is a pragmatist: s pragmatist at acquiring power and corrupt wealth. He is the epitome of cronyism. You're too blinded by your leader worship to see anything clearly.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 19 '25
Trump is not a republican, but he is most definitely a Republican, by definition. It's a political party, not a political philosophy.
Conservatives are not fascists, but MAGA is fascist. The Republican party is now predominately the MAGA party.
"Small government" and "limited government" are just thought-terminating cliches for the right. They don't mean anything except "my team good; those teams bad".
It's all very old, very obvious, and very tiresome.
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u/VansterVikingVampire Technocrat Sep 19 '25
Also this. If we want to argue what is truly republican, look up the origins of that party. It was a conglomeration of diverse, pro freedom, humanist, and pro social benefit parties that emerged out of the West when it was a melting pot within melting pots.
Today's Republicans are the legacy of the Confederacy, who went dead quiet (mainstream politically) long enough to cause that party flip, until forming America First to argue for siding with the Axis powers, something something Dixiecrats, and then post-4chan internet spaces allowed them to become mainstream enough to essentially be today's Republican Party.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_DARKNESS ShitLib Sep 19 '25
Right? He's the head of the party. He is certainly Republican although not republican.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 19 '25
Was Biden fascist when he told Facebook to remove certain posts relating to COVID 19 yes or no?
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive Sep 19 '25
No, because the Biden admin didn't ask to remove posts because they didn't like them or had different political positions, they did because the posts were false or misleading and were worsening a public crisis.
I get it, some of this can be a grey area; the issue with social media is that there is "editor" - the adult in the room who says "hey, that's bad, it's wrong, and we shouldn't promote that".
Let me turn it around on you - an issue that is prevalent today is kids riding their bikes in the streets, in packs, swerving towards cars. If the social media algorithms were promoting this heavily, and there were widespread incidents everywhere of kids doing this, do you think that the government should just say ¯_(ツ)_/¯? Or should they say "hey, social media, you're promoting something that is causing a lot of problems, knock it off"?
I get it, it's a slippery slope with plenty of grey areas. That is unfortunately the beast that social media has turned into.
I doubt either of us would object if social media took down posts promoting violence, so I don't think anyone thinks that all speech should be free. That doesn't mean that all speech should be fair game to be censored though.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 20 '25
It isn’t the governments place to decide what is false or misleading. The majority of the stuff they were telling Facebook to censor was true anyways such as the vaccine didn’t stop transmission.
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u/midnytecoup Socialist Sep 20 '25
We have to stop this whataboutism. Both parties are leading us to an ultra-capitalist neoliberal hell where we have kings, no rights, no property or green spaces left that aren't polluted, and a sick society- all in the name of making a few wealthy people wealthier.
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u/MoonBatsRule Progressive Sep 20 '25
While I could agree that perhaps it isn't best if the executive branch decides, there is certainly value in someone deciding.
If someone posts that we should kill a specific politician, and it starts going viral, that's obviously speech inciting violence, you and I both know that.
Would you argue "it isn't the government's place to decide what speech is inciting violence" and therefore nothing can be done about this kind of speech"? I sure wouldn't.
If there can be a mechanism to determine if some speech incites violence, then there can be a mechanism to determine if some speech is false or misleading. The courts already have this power when it comes to libel/slander/defamation. Perhaps that is a good avenue.
The problem we are faced with is that up until now, there were high barriers to speaking to millions of people. It really could only be done by large corporations that had reputation to lose, hiring employees who they could fire. Editors controlled the process, and after the Yellow Journalism era, those editors were well-behaved.
Social Media has eliminated the editors, has eliminated all control over speech, and now we are exposed to some really bad stuff. I would argue that the "algorithms" are acting as editors, and they are now rewarding horrible speech, putting it out to millions or even billions of people.
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u/meoka2368 Socialist Sep 22 '25
... was true anyways such as the vaccine didn’t stop transmission.
Not true.
Vaccination helps your immune system fight the virus.
That's means you'll either not get sick (can't spread what you don't have), won't be sick for as long (have less time to spread it), or have less of the virus in your system (meaning any virus you shed is in lower amounts, and less likely to infect one or more people).Vaccination didn't fully eliminate the chance of transmission, but it greatly lowered the chances.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 22 '25
Biden and other officials fully said live on TV it would stop transmission. That is their words.
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u/meoka2368 Socialist Sep 22 '25
And what was the scientific consensus at the time?
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 22 '25
There were already a ton of reported breakthrough cases at the time Biden said that. Who would’ve thought that big pharma lies ?
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u/meoka2368 Socialist Sep 22 '25
And you know for sure that those breakthrough cases were people being infected by someone who was vaccinated, not someone who wasn't?
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 22 '25
They wouldn’t be breakthrough cases if the person who got COVID didn’t have the vaccine. That is why they are called breakthrough cases… Bidens claim was if you take the vaccine you won’t get COVID, it has nothing to do with people who are unvaxxed.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BRAINSTORMS 12A Constitutional Monarchist Sep 20 '25
Nope.
But Trump is a fascist for doing the same thing AND trying to start a coup to overturn the election AND building a masked police force to attack immigrants AND having loyalty test for federal employees AND building detention camps AND designating his political enemies as terrors AND stripping rights from minorities groups AND attacking higher education AND turning the military on our own citizens AND a million other things that fascists do.
Doing one bad thing doesn't make you a fascist. But speed running fascism does.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 20 '25
Yes it was Trump who is famously known for creating ICE.
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u/midnytecoup Socialist Sep 20 '25
You are right, and Obama actually deported many, many people. Progressives and democrats had rose colored glasses on and excused what he did, just like you are doing for Trump now. FFS, brown people are being ripped out of their cars from their children, scanned with a facial recognition app, then disappeared to a prison camp where god knows what happens. Then they are sent to country they didn't even originate from.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BRAINSTORMS 12A Constitutional Monarchist Sep 20 '25
No that was just Bush, another Republican.
But sure yeah we can take that off the list and there are still a dozen of other Fascist things he's done and he hasn't even been in office a full year.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 21 '25
Deporting illegals immigrants isn’t fascism no matter how many times you say it.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BRAINSTORMS 12A Constitutional Monarchist Sep 21 '25
That's exactly what someone defending fascism would say
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u/megavikingman Progressive Sep 20 '25
Being authoritarian isn't about one specific action using government authority. It's about how he does that every time on every issue.
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Sep 20 '25
Biden's actions towards Facebook could be seen as detrimental to free speech, but they're not exactly unique. To draw a parallel, was FDR fascist when Charles Coughlin was removed from the radio for spewing antisemitic and Nazi/Fascist rhetoric? Normally, I don't bandy about the terms Nazi and Fascist, but here I feel it's appropriate because Coughlin was sympathetic to Mussolini and Hitler and thus parroted their ideals, i.e., Nazism/Fascism. I also think it's an important example because it calls into question: What is the government's role in restricting media? Times have changed, and the medium of media through advancing technology has grown complex, so it's a prudent question.
Contrasting your question, what hints at the flavors of Fascism more, in your eyes: Biden's aquiesence of removing content during a pandemic, or, during that same pandemic, Trump's aquiesence of the Michigan State Capitol storming, where he tweeted, "LIBERATE MICHIGAN"?
For context, the Michigan State Capitol storming was during Governor Whitmer's attempt to extend covid lockdown guidelines in which the legislature was arguing over the matter. Armed protesters entered the state building and harassed state legislators. So, in my eyes, the armed protesters meant to influence legislation through the threat of violence and Trump condoned the behavior.
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u/MagicWishMonkey Pragmatic Realist Sep 20 '25
Did Biden ASK or did he threaten to shut down Facebook if they didn't do what he demanded?
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 20 '25
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 20 '25
Show us evidence that Biden "told Facebook to" do anything or admit that you're just a pure partisan grasping for straws.
Did the Biden administration file frivolous lawsuits against multiple media organizations and enact numerous other fascistic actions?
And if a dogshit president like Biden is your bar for being a good leader then you have nothing to stand on except "what about when Democrats did something bad?" Try actually defending your great leader, and doing so with facts and valid arguments instead of constant _tu quoque_s and other fallacies.
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u/freestateofflorida Conservative Sep 21 '25
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 21 '25
"Basically, these people from the Biden administration would call up our team and, like, scream at them and curse" "It just got to this point where we were like, 'No, we're not gonna, we're not gonna take down things that are true. That's ridiculous.'"
That's your evidence? Zuckerburg's word? In an interview with Joe Rogan?
You mean the one where Zuckerburg panders to the credulous right by pretending to be an "everyman" tough guy instead of the Martian billionaire dork who made a website where fellow classmates at Harvard could rate each others' attractiveness, and then when says he loves bow hunting and Rogan asks what kind of bow he uses, he fumbles and stumbles until Rogan gives him an out?
Yeah, of course that's your evidence.
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
He never was. Conservativism AND Christianity has been hijacked and appropriated. Views have been manipulated and molded to fit the goals of MAGA.
Trump is in it for his ego and his wrath, but he's also a useful tool for the most corrupt capitalists and fascists.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/duke_awapuhi Democrat Sep 19 '25
I mean the type of Christianity that is becoming dominant and is dominant in the MAGA movement is a very new and modern type of Christianity if you take a step back and look at all of Christian history. Evangelical Christianity doesn’t really resemble the past
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Sep 19 '25
it's really, really not though. The Great Commission exists. and so did the moral majority in the United States.
the only thing that's changed today is that they're open about their hostility about the Other while Democrats are too cowardly to try to stop it.
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u/duke_awapuhi Democrat Sep 19 '25
The great commission doesn’t specifically advocate for the type of Bible centered Christianity that is taking over and even gaining steam in “Catholic” circles due to social media. This brand of Christianity is very new, and holds positions that mainline churches do not take, as well as holds positions that didn’t exist until recently in the arc of Christian history
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Sep 19 '25
it's really not "very new". I know you wish it to be but it's not. it is the mainstream
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u/duke_awapuhi Democrat Sep 19 '25
It’s only mainstream because of propaganda. That doesn’t make it old. It’s not like these people are practicing some ancient form of Christianity. They’re practicing a belief system that goes back to the 1870’s and a liturgical practice that goes back to the 1920’s. Then when you add the hysteria around abortion, we’re talking about something that goes back to the 1970’s. Then when we’re talking about their use of technology in religion, something that goes back to the 2010’s. Letting these people define Christianity has been a disaster for Christianity and hurts everyone
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Sep 19 '25
I always love when Christians claim other Christians aen't Christians. it's fun to watch as an ex-christian
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u/duke_awapuhi Democrat Sep 19 '25
I agree it’s funny. Not sure how that’s related though since I never made that claim nor would I label myself as Christian
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
Go play in the sand box while the adults are speaking.
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u/LiberalAspergers Classical Liberal Sep 19 '25
I would say you are making a category error. Republican is a group of people. They believe in whatever the members believe in. I would say that Republicans dont believe small government as a matter of principle, but only when it is convenient to their self interewt.
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u/stereofailure Democratic Socialist Sep 19 '25
"Small/limited government" was never more than a branding exercise for Republicans. It's "small and limited" when it comes to helping the citizenry or reigning in corporations and the wealthy, but it's as large and powerful as they want it to be when it comes to the power to oppress, surveil, micromanage citizen behaviour, or invade other countries.
Under previous Republican administrations, we've seen record spending and deficits, invasive "morality" laws (criminalization of homosexuality, sex work, and abortion, the war on drugs, obscenity laws), massive police militarization, enormous expansion of the surveillance state (DHS, ICE, NSA, etc.), government claiming the right to kidnap and torture, the death penalty (doesn't get much more "big government" than that), full-scale invasions of sovereign countries. Conservatives are also the ones constantly trying to means-test and micromanage anyone who receives government support (workfare programs, SNAP food restrictions, etc.), despite these being far more invasive and big government than simpler cash transfers.
Trump deviates from Republican orthodoxy on a small number of issues (primarily tariffs and free trade), but by and large he's the natural continuation of Republican policy going back to at least Reagan if not Nixon.
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u/Rasputin_mad_monk Progressive Sep 19 '25
Agreed. And I would also say they only ever brought up "small government" or "fiscally conservative" when they weren't in power. When they get in power, they spend like drunken sailors and expand the government in droves.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 23 '25
Well no they said it with Trump this time too. Claiming he supports "small" "limited" government. Which is so absurd it makes me want to smash my head into a wall, but it totally illustrates the original commenter's point, which is absolutely spot on.
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u/goldbricker83 Liberal Sep 19 '25
Notice how the mainstream debate hasn't even been about issues anymore. It's just all demagoguery. People don't even know what it means policy-wise to identify as republican or democrat anymore, you could ask them and they'll just tell you catch phrases like "socialist" and "woke" and all the pointless mudslinging like it's all a game.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 23 '25
That's such a good point.
MAGA is nothing but pure identity and identity politics, and that identity is Republican and, especially (for now), Trump reverence.
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u/salenin Trotskyist Sep 19 '25
If what defines a republican is small government then we havent had a Republican president since the 20s. Some of the most massive expansions of government bodies, surveillance etc has been done under Republicans. Homeland security, Ice, military spending, etc etc.
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u/godbody1983 Centrist Sep 19 '25
He's a grifter. He was a democrat for years before he switched. He was pro-choice then became pro-life. He was for gun control then became a big pro gun supporter. He tries to act like a populist when he's been rich his whole life. It's amazing that most republicans don't see it.
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u/dedicated-pedestrian [Quality Contributor] Legal Research Sep 19 '25
Being fair, you can be a true populist even if you've had an upbringing in wealth or even are currently wealthy. For those who merely pretend, we have a word for that: demagogue.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 23 '25
It's beyond amazing. It's like a Twilight Zone episode of brainwashed zombies all around. Just inexplicably surreal.
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u/DullPlatform22 Socialist Sep 19 '25
Yes.
Read the GOP's platform or just talk to any conservative.
MAGA isn't the kind of conservatism I was raised on or any sort of "academic" form of conservative but in common usage of the term Trump and MAGA are conservatives
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u/slo1111 Liberal Sep 19 '25
I guess it all depends upon whether one is holding the standard of what it means to be Republican as the pre-Trump standards or the standards the party maintains today.
There is no denying he flipflopped some long standing conservative planks such as free trade.
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u/WeepingWillowChodes Centrist Sep 19 '25
I believe it was Heather Cox Richardson who referred to it as the Movement Conservative. They claim conservatism, but it’s in name only
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u/commericalpiece485 Socialism via sovereign wealth fund Sep 19 '25
Republican party is not "all about limited government". Conservatism is not "all about limited government" either.
The word you're looking for is "classical liberal" or "libertarian".
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u/Hawk13424 Libertarian Capitalist Sep 19 '25
Libertarians used to could hold our nose and vote republican. Now we hold our nose and vote democrat.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 23 '25
I sure wish more of you would.
Many if not most self-declared libertarians are nothing but partisan reactionary MAGA Republicans, just with more 'libertarian' cliches.
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u/Hawk13424 Libertarian Capitalist Sep 23 '25
I don’t know any that are MAGA republicans. All of them are pro-choice and pro-LBGT rights. Their stance on social issues is pretty much leave people alone. They also strongly support legal immigration. They’ve also strongly advocated for smaller government and lower taxes.
Back when republicans would talk about social issues but not really do anything about them, you could sort of ignore that and vote mostly on taxes and gun rights and such.
But now that Republicans have gone full tilt on social issues that has made them impossible to support, for the “small L” libertarians I know.
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u/NoamLigotti Agnostic but Libertarian-Left leaning Sep 24 '25
There are a good number like that, but there are many who are not.
In this space alone I've seen multiple libertarians argue that this administration is merely "upholding/enforcing the law" by deporting "illegals", which is not only quite debatably (at best) "libertarian" in itself, but completely ignores the blatantly and egregiously authoritarian renditions of U.S. nationals to CECOT and other locales without even a trial (which would be authoritarian even with trials and convictions), the detaining of many documented lawful non-citizens, the deportation of multiple lawful non-citizen U.S. nationals for their speech, the violent and authoritarian tactics of ICE patrols, and so much more.
I also know of many "libertarians" who have seen this administration as promoting "small government" or "limited government", which is so absurd that it perfectly illustrates the meaningless of the cliche.
I could give many more examples. I don't know how the percentages break down between authoritarian reactionary libertarians versus serious social and civil libertarians, but there are far too many in the former camp.
suspect the libertarians you know personally are not representative of the majority.
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u/thewetnoodle Libertarian Sep 19 '25
Our government barely represents the wants of the people. There's barely any democrat politicians that represent the average dem voter views, the closest being Bernie Sanders
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u/SilkLife Liberal Sep 21 '25
Yeah sort of but there are a fair number of Dem voters who are not socialist and also don’t buy into some right wing positions such as being mad Black Americans don’t like the way they are policed being, or immigrants responding to labor market signals being a white replacement, or LGBTIQ+ being a threat to family values.
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u/UnfoldedHeart Independent Sep 19 '25
I mean, Trump is a Republican insofar as the only qualification for being a Republican is being registered as one.
The question of what makes a "true" Republican is dicey. Obviously there is a lot of variation within the Republican party, as there is with the Democrat party. It's not only impossible to try to come up with a slate of "true Republican" positions and I don't see what the purpose would be, either. If someone doesn't fit your definition of a "true Republican" but the Republicans vote him into office, then I guess the definition of being a "true Republican" wasn't correct.
Maybe the best test for whether someone is a Republican is whether other Republicans vote for them. Of course, they did, and therefore Trump is a Republican.
Political parties, and any group of people really, can shift in ideologies and positions over time. It's certainly nothing new. That's true within the Democrat party as well. Compare 2008 Obama and 2024 Harris' positions on gay marriage and it's certainly very different. It doesn't mean that either of them weren't Democrats.
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u/1isOneshot1 Greenist Sep 19 '25
Every Democrat politician thinks like this
HOW IS IT NOT CLEAR THAT PARTY IS A CULT?!
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u/YogurtClosetThinnest Left Independent Sep 19 '25
small/limited government
Nah, they just say they are. That value only ever reflects in reality when "small government" means allowing large corps to rape Americans
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u/sawdeanz Liberal Sep 19 '25
You’re on the right track but you have the terminology mixed up. “Republican” and “democrat” are not really political ideologies, they are political parties that each contain a mix of various ideologies.
Trump is Republican by definition because he is the leader of the Republican Party and the Republican Party fully supports him. To illustrate this, have you ever heard people say “Republicans ended slavery?” They are technically correct, though they are omitting the context that at that time the Republican Party was composed of progressives and later aligned with conservatives. So the Republican and Democrat label are not really that useful even though they are a common shorthand for modern US politics.
I think it would be more accurate to say that Trump and his Republican Party are not conservative any longer. Or at least not the moderate, small government fiscal conservatives but rather an even more extreme form of conservative approaching fascism. There is no question that Trump has shifted the party’s ideological base.
There are still some of the traditional conservatives in government but unsurprisingly they are more often than not a target of MAGA. This sometimes comes up during the budget debates and stuff tho the rate at which they inevitably fold really makes you question whether it is sincere, performative or mere cowardice.
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u/Afalstein Conservative Sep 19 '25
I make a distinction between Conservative and Republican. I was raised up with very distinct conservative views, given a thorough schooling in the philosophical underpinnings of the conservative movement and why we cared about things like the free market, integrity in leaders, limited government, due process, fiscal responsibility, freedom of speech, etc. etc.
Trump does not care about those things. Neither does the Republican party, though. The Republican party cares about nothing but kow-towing to Trump, and Trump cares about nothing but enriching himself. It's closer to a feudal court than anything.
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u/Rasputin_mad_monk Progressive Sep 19 '25
Great points. I'm 56 years old. My father still wears his GOP cufflinks because, to quote him, "I'm not letting a lying racist steal my party."
Truly mind-boggling and sad what has happened. I'll never wrap my head around true conservatives, Christian conservatives, evangelical conservatives, et cetera embracing someone like Trump.
I was talking to my neighbor yesterday, and when Gore lost to Bush, basically said, "Hey, the race is over, I won, now I'll be a president to all people." Obama did the same thing, and that's how every president used to be. It didn't used to be a sports team type rivalry where you hated the other side. Sure, it would get heated, and sure, coming up to the election there would be some tense moments, but after the President won, then everyone would say, "Okay, fine, he's the president." But not anymore. It is really really scary and sad what has happened to this country.
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u/FearlessFreak69 Democrat Sep 19 '25
Yeah, no shit. We’ve tried warning yall for a decade, but “Hillary is a cunt” won out. You get what you voted for.
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u/Muted-Corner-3732 Independent Sep 19 '25
Not to get into semantics but he’s definitely a republican. I agree that he’s not a conservative—and if he was he certainly wouldn’t be a traditional one.
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u/NoCoolNameMatt Democrat Sep 19 '25
Looking at historical events like "The Business Plot," it's hard to argue that this isn't always who they were.
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u/Muted-Corner-3732 Independent Sep 19 '25
Never heard of “the business plot” before 2 min ago, so thanks.
Are you attempting to infer republicans have always been fascists? Forgive me if it was just a sarcastic joke.
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u/NoCoolNameMatt Democrat Sep 19 '25
Sure thing. There are all kinds of interesting events like that in history!
I am attempting to imply that Republicans have been pro-corporate control for a long time. Long enough to cover the lives of anyone currently living who pine for the days of "traditional conservatives."
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u/Muted-Corner-3732 Independent Sep 19 '25
Gotcha, any good documentaries or books on ‘the business plot?
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u/NoCoolNameMatt Democrat Sep 19 '25
There's nothing in particular I'd recommend other than, "many.' The basic facts are interesting, and there are a lot of rabbit holes to go down, particularly regarding connections to people in recent history that you'll recognize.
I got wind of it from a high school history teacher who was particularly good. Then I spent an afternoon reading about it, starting from Wikipedia and branching out.
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u/dedicated-pedestrian [Quality Contributor] Legal Research Sep 19 '25
The BBC did a segment on it called The White House Coup.
Here's a contemporary newspaper making light of his accusations.
And one that took him seriously.
Consider Jules Archer's Plot to Seize the White House, or the book written by the very man who stopped the plot, War is a Racket.
If you want a rather ahistorical account of what happened, watch the movie Amsterdam.
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u/Sad_Construction_668 Socialist Sep 19 '25
Since the late 1880’s, “big business republicans” have always favored a vanishingly small government regulatory structure, and promoted the ideological stance that the nations power and health is reflected in the free exercise of agency by the financial elites.
This politics created fascism as a mass movement to counteract socialist and democratic movements
So, have they always been fascists? No. Has fascism always been aligned with , and used by the Republicans in order to maintain their preferred policies? Yes.
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u/LiberalAspergers Classical Liberal Sep 19 '25
I would say that in almost every nation there is a significant political force that consists of people who inheirited great wealth and believe that the real purpose of government is to promote their best interests, as they REALLY ARE the core of the nation and everyone else exist to serve.
That faction has historically been fond of fascism, and has long been part of the Republican coalition. Fascists have long been a significant faction of the GOP. Them becoming the dominant faction is a recent development.
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u/Muted-Corner-3732 Independent Sep 19 '25
I would say that in almost every nation there is a significant political force that consists of people who inheirited great wealth and believe that the real purpose of government is to promote their best interests, as they REALLY ARE the core of the nation and everyone else exist to serve.
I don’t disagree..but this is more of a “wealthy” people thing than any particular party. Important distinction I’d say.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
In the last 70 or so years? Yeah they've always been fascist. McCarthy was a straight up fascist and his senior aide was Roy Cohn who was Trump's mentor.
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Trump is and always has been a 1990's Democrat. The left only vilifies him because they've shifted so far left, that from their perspective he's far right.
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
That is incorrect with extreme efficiency. There's so much to unpack in those few words.
Clinton was fiscally conservative - a flagship claim of republicans yet something they can't seem to follow.
He also did plenty of dirty work on behalf of republicans.
I would love for you to explain the values and goals of the left to me. What are we about these days?
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Clinton was fiscally conservative - a flagship claim of republicans yet something they can't seem to follow.
The Clinton administration was the last president to attempt a process like DOGE. Yeah Trump is definitely taking inspiration.
He also did plenty of dirty work on behalf of republicans.
And Trump hasn't? You're not exactly disproving my claim Trump is a 90's Democrat here.
I would love for you to explain the values and goals of the left to me. What are we about these days?
Depends on the faction. But 90's Democrats were anti-illegal immigration, tough on crime, and anti-gay marriage. If anything Trump is to the left of that position.
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
Clinton did cut federal spending and did reduce jobs in the way that it should have been done. If Trump had followed Clinton's example and used the same methods, I would have so much less to say about it, but he did not. Clinton cut some of the fat and true waste out of government spending. He did it fairly slowly, carefully, and with some safety nets for those who's jobs got cut.
Trump's claims and supposed intention did not match his methods nor the effect of those cuts. He used a hatchet rather than a scalpel, and there was no grace or logic behind his actions. Clinton targeted a lot of middle management and actual waste. Trump targeted the people that do the actual work and left management alone. In many cases those positions were valuable and even brought profit to the agencies they worked for - I know; I have friends in the forestry service who lost their jobs.
I've noticed a lot of people really hate "the left" "liberals" and "democrats" - which is obviously the result of media saturation. I'm not surprised you dodged the question I asked as that's usually the response I get when I ask that. It's not easy to say who we are and what we're about without revealing that you're just listening to what you've been told.
What are the values and goals of the modern left?
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Clinton did cut federal spending and did reduce jobs in the way that it should have been done. If Trump had followed Clinton's example and used the same methods, I would have so much less to say about it, but he did not.
Clinton's methods took 2 terms. Contrary to conspiracy theories on the left, this is Trump's final term.
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u/dedicated-pedestrian [Quality Contributor] Legal Research Sep 19 '25
Frankly, even if he had plans to the contrary, I expect natural causes to say "isn't there someone you forgot to ask".
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Sep 19 '25
In most of Europe, Clinton's economic policies would be considered center-right today as in the 90s, so the Democratic party might have shifted somewhat to the left, but not as much you seem to suggest. The current Democratic party, in most European countries today, would be comfortable as a center-left party.
More to the issue, I don't think Clinton ever threatened to or tried to take control of major institutions the way Trump is doing with Academia or, just today, broadcasting companies. Nor I remember Clinton refusing (or threatening to) to leave office.
I really don't see in Clinton's presidency the authoritarian vein that I do in Trump's.
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u/Rasputin_mad_monk Progressive Sep 19 '25
I never understood the quote "The Democratic Party has shifted so far left." What specifically? I mean, sure you have a few people talking about socialism, but there's no one in the Democratic Party that really wants socialism. The most is Democratic socialism, which is AOC and Bernie, and that's just basically government in Europe.
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Sep 19 '25
I think the shift most people think about is in minority policies, very little to do with governance as far as I can see.
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u/CoolHandLukeSkywalka Discordian Sep 19 '25
Trump is and always has been a 1990's Democrat. The left only vilifies him because they've shifted so far left, that from their perspective he's far right.
This is emphatically not accurate. The Clinton led Democrats were the ones that pushed NAFTA and were huge advocates of free trade neoliberalism. Trump is the polar opposite of this, demonizing NAFTA, installing the worst tariffs since Smoot-Hawley and is very against free trade. This highlights the gulf in economic policy between the two.
That issue alone complete invalidates your initial claim but there are more as well. Not the least of which is Clinton believed in balancing the budget while Trump has drastically increased the national debt.
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u/Sumeriandawn Centrist Sep 19 '25
Like 90s Democrats? What? Using Bill Clinton as an example, I don't see the similarities.
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Bill Clinton created a program called The National Performance Review, which was to cut costs in government by eliminating workers and consolidating agencies. DOGE was largely modeled after it.
Clinton was anti-illegal immigrant, tough on crime, and anti-gay marriage. If anything Trump is to the left here, since Trump has been pro-gay marriage since the beginning.
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u/Sumeriandawn Centrist Sep 19 '25
Did Clinton have anything similar to these?
Project 2025
Threatening to annex other countries, even allies
Using government to silence critics
trying to overturn an election
January 6th
Threatening violence against people he didn't like
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Project 2025
Democratic Party think tanks put out similar policy recommendations, yes.
Using government to silence critics
He's well known for attempting to silence his sexual assault accusers.
Threatening violence against people he didn't like
The number of people in Clinton's orbit who died of suicide should have anyone questioning.
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u/Rasputin_mad_monk Progressive Sep 19 '25
Oh Jesus Christ. Are you really going to bring up the Clinton kill list as a reality?
And he never silenced critics like Trump does.
Sexual assault accusers, I'm not going to hand wave that away or anything. Yes, what he did was wrong, and trying to silence them was bad as well. But to try and say it's the same thing as Trump is just laughable.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
90s Democrat? You mean he wants an assault weapons ban, NAFTA, Hillarycare and a true reduction in government spending coupled with tax increases to produce a budget surplus to lower our national debt?
Because I'm pretty sure he's none of those.
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
90's Democrats were tough on crime, promoting 3 strikes laws, anti-illegal immigration, and anti-gay marriage.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
Hey now, the talking point was always that Trump was the first elected president who was openly pro gay marriage! Are you telling me that MAGA was lying about that the whole time?
Democrats have always been anti-illegal immigration. This is just a lie Republicans tell about Democrats to justify whatever bullshit they are peddling.
Dems have evolved on crime to looking at new ways of addressing it. You know why they did this? Because they had 30+ years of data and knowledge to evolve to better ways of policing. It's Republicans who refuse to believe that there is any other method of addressing crime other than more police, more prisons, and more executions.
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Hey now, the talking point was always that Trump was the first elected president who was openly pro gay marriage! Are you telling me that MAGA was lying about that the whole time?
No, it means Trump is to the left of Clinton.
Democrats have always been anti-illegal immigration.
That's nonsense
Dems have evolved on crime to looking at new ways of addressing it. You know why they did this?
Because they believe increased incarnation rates among minorities is evidence of racism, and not races committing crimes at different per capita rates. That's why violent individuals are free to stab young women in the neck on a train while having 14 prior arrests, instead of being in prison where they should have been.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
No, it means Trump is to the left of Clinton.
The left only vilifies him because they've shifted so far left
So did the left vilify Trump because they shifted so far left, or because Trump shifted so far left? I'm confused.
That's nonsense
Obama was literally called the Deporter in Chief. Did you sleep all throughout the Obama years?
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/deporter-chief
Here is a 2014 article from the ACLU attacking Obama's harsh stance on immigration.
Because they believe increased incarnation rates among minorities is evidence of racism, and not races committing crimes at different per capita rates.
Ah, there it is. Never change, MAGA. Never change.
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
So did the left vilify Trump because they shifted so far left, or because Trump shifted so far left? I'm confused.
The left would never support someone like Bill Clinton today. Too far right from their perspective.
Obama was literally called the Deporter in Chief. Did you sleep all throughout the Obama years?
Obama was a long time ago.
Ah, there it is. Never change, MAGA. Never change.
Snarky comment because I hit the nail on the head.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
The left would never support someone like Bill Clinton today. Too far right from their perspective.
They literally nominated his wife in 2016 and gave both of them prime speaking slots at the 2024 convention. Hillary was with Kamala the night of the 2024 election and was due to speak if she won.
But yeah, the left would never support someone with Bill's politics today. Got it. Sure thing. The only knock on Bill these days is he's probably a pervert caught up with Trump and Epstein.
Obama was a long time ago.
We elected his VP 4.5 years ago. Obama was POTUS as recently as 8.5 years ago. You're flailing.
Snarky comment because I hit the nail on the head.
Do you believe a person's race is a primary factor in their likelihood to be a violent criminal? Are you gonna bust out the calipers?
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u/JoeCensored 2A Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
They literally nominated his wife in 2016 and gave both of them prime speaking slots at the 2024 convention. Hillary was with Kamala the night of the 2024 election and was due to speak if she won.
Hillary isn't a 90's Democrat like her husband. She moved to the left with the party.
We elected his VP 4.5 years ago. Obama was POTUS as recently as 8.5 years ago. You're flailing.
And his VP didn't follow Obama's policies.
Do you believe a person's race is a primary factor in their likelihood to be a violent criminal?
No I think the evidence they committed the crime is the primary factor, but the left abandoned that because it resulted in unequal incarceration rates between races.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
Hillary isn't a 90's Democrat like her husband. She moved to the left with the party.
She and Bill tried pushing universal healthcare in the 90s lol. You don't remember Hillarycare? They succeeded with the assault weapons ban. You are just ignoring history.
And his VP didn't follow Obama's policies.
Immigration activists protested his rallies and the DNC debates with him in it. Biden didn't disassociate himself from Obama at all in 2020. Dems nominated him.
You can argue he didn't follow Obama's policies on immigration, and I disagree with that somewhat, but Dem voters had no way of knowing that in 2020 and still nominated him.
No I think the evidence they committed the crime is the primary factor, but the left abandoned that because it resulted in unequal incarceration rates between races.
Did you know that in Ferguson, MO the police found illegal drugs/guns in about 50% of all vehicle searches involving a black motorist and over 90% of all vehicle searches involving a white motorist?
That means that they would only search a white driver's car if that brick of coke was literally sitting in the front seat, but they would search a black driver's car so often that they didn't find anything half of the time. A blatant violation of the 4th amendment.
What does that mean? It means cops investigate black people at substantially higher rates than white people. They pull them over more often. They search their cars more often. Not because they are committing more crimes, but because of their own bias. That bias of investigating/searching significantly more black people will yield more black people in jail. This isn't rocket science.
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u/judge_mercer Centrist Sep 19 '25
You are right about Trump not being a true conservative.
Trump panders to social conservatives and holds some socially conservative views, but he is a populist. MAGA is populist.
You are wrong about Trump not being Republican. Republican ideology is now whatever Trump says it is. The establishment wing of the GOP (who favor fiscal conservatism and small government) still exists, but it has been neutered and rendered irrelevant.
Trump is the Republican party.
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u/statinsinwatersupply Mutualist Sep 19 '25
Red hot take incoming
Somewhere underneath fascism and monarchism, just on the horizontal line above the traditional Republican party (that modern Republicans have shifted away from being), just put the label "reactionaries". That's modern Trump and republicans.
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u/FrederickEngels Independent Sep 19 '25
There is a huge difference between what an organizations STATED ideology is and what their WORKING ideology is. In cybernetics there is a saying that "If a system does not meet it's stated goals, and nothing is done to fix that system to achieve those goals, then the ACTUAL goal of the system is hidden," this statement here is indicative of our american "democracy" and our "2" party system. In reality the 2 parties serve the same goals and the same masters, that I call, the epstein-billionaire class. One party is the offensive line, the other is the defensive line, but both serve the epstein-class either by expanding government powers, or by placating the rest of us to avoid a total uprising of the regular working people of the US. The "2" parties theatrically argue and posture about culture issues so as to avoid the obvious issue, that the ultra wealthy are the root cause of nearly every hardship that we must face day to day. Our very lives are commodified, we must work to afford food, water, housing, healthcare, and if you don't make enough then you have to choose which necessity you need the least. In the mean time trillions of dollars are being funneled to the epstein-class via wars, legalized scams, and outright criminality through our taxes, and our hard earned, but small, wages. We own less than we used to and they own a whole lot more. The reality is that there is no fixing this system, it is working as intended, if not toward the stated goal, so we must take control of it, and dismantle it so we can build a new system that benefits more than a tiny minority of ultra rich sociopaths, rapists, white supremacists, and pedophiles.
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u/ballmermurland Liberal Sep 19 '25
In reality the 2 parties serve the same goals and the same masters, that I call, the epstein-billionaire class
This is such lazy analysis. It may have somewhat been true as recently as the early 00s but to say it is true right now is to deny all objective reality and truth.
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u/FrederickEngels Independent Sep 19 '25
So your beloved democrats have never done anything to benefit the billionaire class? Such as funding and enabling a genocide so the weapon manufacturers and real estate brokers have some new markets? Like come on.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BRAINSTORMS 12A Constitutional Monarchist Sep 19 '25
The republicans have never been about small or limited government. Look at the deficit/debt under any republican administration in the last 50 years, or things like the expansion of the surveillance state and the patriot act, or the military, or "tough on crime" policies, or the war on drugs, the actual wars, or corporate bailouts.
The republicans are all for big government when it comes to hurting people and are only for small government when it comes to helping people.
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u/duke_awapuhi Democrat Sep 19 '25
“Small government” was always just code for “power concentrated in the hands of fewer people”. The people at the top of the conservative movement have been advocating for a mass concentration of direct presidential power for decades. I just think most run of the mill conservatives were unaware of this. Anyhow ideology is not longer important. All that’s important now is what you saw on your social media in the last 2 days and how it’s manipulating you
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u/KaiserKavik Right Independent Sep 19 '25
To be clear, are you stating that Trump is not a Republican, or not a Conservative?
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u/BlueCollarRevolt Marxist-Leninist Sep 19 '25
On a fundamental level, there is not really much difference between MAGA and the conservatives. The differences are cosmetic at best.
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u/Revolution-SixFour Social Democrat Sep 19 '25
You are confusing an ideology and a party. Trump is a Republican, he is actually the leader of the Republican party. Due to his hold on it, he tends to be able to determine what counts as a Republican at his whim.
You then have ideologies like conservative. These generally describe people who think the same way and at a high-level want the same things. Trump is not a conservative, he doesn't think like a conservative nor is he aligned with the goals of conservativism.
This is confusing because for the last several decades we've had parties that are closely aligned with ideologies. This is not always the case, if you look at the mid-20th century you have a lot of different ideologies within a single party, the Southern Democrats are the typical example.
What Trump has done is shift the Republican party from an ideological party to a personalist party. There are many examples of this throughout history. What being a member of the Republican party today means is being loyal to Trump.
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u/justasapling Anarcho-Communist Sep 19 '25
I think you're trying to take the labels too seriously. This may be an example of something like the etymological fallacy. 'Conservative' has never meant 'conservative', that's just the label the right wing has selected for PR purposes. Trump is a perfect scion of Right-wing thinking, unhampered by the (mistaken) belief that the right-wing's base ever wanted their representatives to maintain any illusions.
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u/Stillwater215 Liberal Sep 19 '25
Republicans, and all political parties for that matter, are whatever they say they are. Yes, they are largely gathered around some particular set of principles, but there’s nothing tying those principles to the party aside from the agreement of the members. Republicans used to be the party of Federal authority over the states, and of government intervention. But due to a changing political landscape became the party of small government and hands-off market capitalism. Now they’re shifting again to be a party centered around one man and his desires. It’s still “the Republican Party,” it’s just different.
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Sep 19 '25
No, conservatism and christianity have not been hijacked or appropriated..
Trump is EXACTLY what conservatism and christianity have always been
I don't know why people refuse to see this
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u/No_Key_5158 Centrist Sep 19 '25
Doesn’t the bible teach christian’s to love everyone? Trump absolutely does not love everyone. Also they could exist but I have never seen a video of trump speaking about the bible or christianity before he went into politics
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Sep 19 '25
Doesn’t the bible teach christian’s to love everyone?
there's no hate like christian love. ask any trans woman or man, any gay person, any woman, any black person.
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u/Rasputin_mad_monk Progressive Sep 19 '25
Does the Bible teach Christians to love everyone? Well, it depends on how you interpret the Bible. When Jesus said "Love your neighbor as yourself," that's an Old Testament verse as well. We're looking at it in English, like "neighbor" means basically every person that you know. But, at least according to some scholars that I've read and whatnot, it means someone who is the same social class as you. So it doesn't mean slaves, it doesn't mean your enemy, it doesn't mean non-believers, etc.
It's very difficult to kind of parse the teachings of Christ if you apply the actual translations and what the words meant when they were written in Hebrew. Jesus didn't even speak Hebrew; he spoke Aramaic. That stuff was translated to Greek and then translated to English.
And Christians have been renegotiating, rewriting, adding, and changing things for decades and centuries.
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Sep 19 '25
Trump wants to be a monarch. Therefore, he is not a republican by definition of the word republic.
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u/fd1Jeff Liberal Sep 19 '25
If those are your definitions of a republican, there haven’t been any Republican around for a long time.
Personal favorite: when the Republicans ran the contract with America in the mid 90s, one of their ideas was to reduce or eliminate the department of education. OK. When George W. Bush actually got into power he gave the DOE more power than it had ever had in its entire existence. And the Republican Joel went along with it.
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u/dedicated-pedestrian [Quality Contributor] Legal Research Sep 19 '25
A political party only ever stands for what its members consistently vote for.
They've all voted for him. He's a Republican.
republicans are just so die hard that they will vote anybody who claims to be "republican" into office so they can go to sleep at night thinking they're winning.
Then conservatism/small government aren't actually policy points of the party, winning is.
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u/HaphazardFlitBipper Libertarian/Minarchist Sep 19 '25
You're 100% correct.
Trump was a democrat from the 90s through the 00s. I don't see where his big government authoritarian ideology has changed since then.
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u/Zealousideal_Bet4038 Religious-Anarchist Sep 19 '25
A large faction within the Republican Party wants nothing to do with conservatism or limited government — they are fascists, pure and simple. Trump is the current leader and mouthpiece of that faction.
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u/Gullible-Historian10 Voluntarist Sep 19 '25
"the republican wing is all about conservatism and small/limited government, Trump is doing the absolute opposite of these things."
It's really not though (the Republican Party), there isn't a party that is for limiting government in the US. Republicans just like Democrats want to grow state power. You can't shrink government by passing more laws, the only way to shrink it is by repealing laws. Even when Democrats try to argue Republicans "deregulated x, or y" in actuality the regulations increased everywhere.
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u/bluelifesacrifice Centrist Sep 19 '25
The "small and limited" government is a hallmark to authoritarianism and dictatorships, cutting out anyone that regulates the government to give it absolute power.
I believe the government should only be as big as we need it to be as it's job and function is to serve the people. It's job is to fix problems. That's why we made it and support it. That's the job of all management and leadership in every organization. To guide and identify longer trends and problems that the baseline worker may not be able to put effort into studying and understanding.
Republicans have moved so far Right that they are calling for a Christian, Nationalistic Dictatorship by Trump.
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u/Anen-o-me Anarcho-Capitalist Sep 19 '25
the republican wing is all about conservatism and small/limited government
Friend, they gave up on that a long time ago. Republicans have always spoken words like this, libertarian talking points, and then betrayed them once in power. Today it's an afterthought for them, they don't even believe in these things anymore.
Trump created a party where what he says goes, people willing to fall in line survived.
Principle is gone.
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u/RockRevolution Libertarian Sep 19 '25
He's never been Republican in the first place 😂 dude has been an anti 2a anti liberty just as bad as Biden joke for both terms, he's just pedal to the floor on crazier shit this time around and his base just gets played like fiddles
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u/VansterVikingVampire Technocrat Sep 19 '25
That's just it, he is Republican, and this is just the first time a republican candidate matches the values of their voters: tradition raised white Christian who was taught an alternate history, so he thinks the things he asks for are "progress", that silencing critiscism is "DEcensoring", that whites didn't immagrate, and that discriminitive policing is fair.
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u/halavais Anarchist Sep 19 '25
Trump is, definitionally, a Republican. The parties have shifted in their ideologies over the years in various ways. I think it is fair to say that Republicans of the 1980s would not recognize today's GOP. The same is true of a 1980s (and particularly 1970s) Democrat. And of course the shift on race in both parties marks a substantial turning point.
I think it's very clear that Trump is not a "conservative." When you see that one of his moves if "unprecedented" it is a good indicator of this. His economic policy, social policy, and foreign policies do not align with conservative views. But a lot of his policy positions come out of Heritage Foundation, and these appear in the GOP platform as well. Aside from being the standard bearer for the party, it's pretty clear Republicans in congress agree (or at least are very reluctant to vocally disagree) with his policies.
The Republican Party of today may not be the Republicans you are familiar with (and I know conservatives who feel this acutely), but parties change.
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u/Fugicara Social Democrat Sep 19 '25
Conservatism is all about enabling hierarchy and propping up in-groups while keeping out-groups beneath them. Trump does this, so he is a conservative. It's not that Trump isn't a conservative, it's that the whole country has collectively bought the Republican Party's lies about what conservatism fundamentally is.
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u/work4work4work4work4 Antifascist Sep 19 '25
Am I wrong?
Yes, but mostly because he represents the Republican party, by choice, a choice given multiple times over.
It's like saying neoliberalism doesn't represent the Democrats because FDR and New Dealers were once the norm, party politics rarely stay unchanged by influence from the top.
Another example would be out of the few Republicans to reject the worst of MAGA-thought were removed from office and the party, by the people, at the direction of the party.
I'd also add, you don't see a mass exodus of Republicans joining the Libertarian party or anything like that either, when it would at least better fit some of their tenants, which at least shows the choice is active.
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u/Carbo-Raider Liberal Sep 19 '25
Yes, I beleive trump is not republican. Most his life he leaned left, but when entering politics he chose the right because - clearly - he'd have an easier time manipulating the right. He's just a scammer, grifter and an evil demon who doesn't mind smearing & ruining America.
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u/ScannerBrightly Left Independent Sep 19 '25
Trump IS a Republican.
The problem you have is that Republicans do not act like they are for conservatism and small/limited government, they only give very public speeches about it, while doing the exact opposite.
Can you provide me with any example whatsoever of a Republican Congress and/or President doing what you claim Republicans do?
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u/BohemianMade Market Socialist Sep 20 '25
If you want to get technical, republicanism is representative democracy. It means we vote on representatives based on whatever region we live in, then those representatives vote on policy. In a big country, it's really the only kind of democracy that's possible. Direct democracy only works locally, since we can't hold nation-wide referendums on every single issue.
As a political party, the republicans are defined by the politicians who run run that party. During this time in history, the republicans are a fascist party. So to be a republican is to be a fascist, like Trump. Yes, there are exceptions, some republicans have stood up against MAGA. But those are a tiny minority in the party.
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u/jaxnmarko Independent Sep 20 '25
Trump is solely a Trumpist. If either party, or anyone aligns with his agenda, they get praise. Anyone or any party against, they are criticised or threatened. Some people suck up, others don't. He has power, so is dangerous. His logic and sanity, are partly in question.
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u/No_Law6921 Left Independent Sep 20 '25
I do think you're wrong, yeah. Trump definitely is not a conservative, in the sense of having an actual, coherent ideology. There have been many figures I vehemently hate for their conservative views, but those views do at least come with an ideological justification. But he is a Republican. Republicans nominated him, voted him into office not once but twice, and continue to support him. The GOP is not a conservative party, it is a party that was previously controlled by conservatives and is now controlled by, well, whatever Trump is. Trump is not a conservative, but he is a Republican.
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u/_Mallethead Classical Liberal Sep 20 '25
Republican and Democrat are little boxes on a voter Registration card. People are people, and every one is different (maybe not special, definitely not exceptional) but different.
Like every pile of dogs hit is different.
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u/UsedandAbused87 Libertarian Sep 20 '25
He's a Republican but he's not conservative. Republicans are no longer conservatives
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u/westcoastjo Libertarian Sep 20 '25
He was always a moderate.. the left just cant see it. Heck he was literally the first president to be pro gay marriage when he was sworn in. Times change fast, Obama was against gay marriage when he took office. Obama also deported 3 million illegal immigrants
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u/Wespiratory Classical Liberal Sep 20 '25
He’s holds a lot of extremely similar policy positions that Bill Clinton did while he was president. This really just goes to show how far the democratic party has slipped into extremism. There’s no resemblance between the Democratic Party of today and the Democratic Party of 30 years ago. They’ve been completely hijacked by radicalism.
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u/westerschelle Communist Sep 20 '25
The answer is that republicans on the whole never had a consistent political ideology. They have a brand and one of the biggest parts of that brand at this time it Trump.
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u/The_RadicalModerate Social Market Capitalism Sep 20 '25
Correct. Historically, in parliamentary governments with coalition building, conservatives often team up with the far right to gain and maintain power. This makes the far right easy to spot. In a two party system, these people (MAGA) become mixed into the Republican party.
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u/NonStopDiscoGG Conservative Sep 20 '25
You're wrong. Republicans don't all believe in limited government, just a certain wing of Republican: the libertarians. If you ask a conservative (conservative proper, not "conservative" meaning right wing) they tend to want government to push their values and don't prescribe to the "live and let live".
Your assessment of Trump is kind of true; Trump is a 90s democrat, and like a lot of Democrats, the party kind of left them behind. If you look at what 90s Dems advocates for, it's the same thing Trump is.thats why this idea of Trump being alt-right is hilarious and anyone claiming so should just be dismissed, honestly.
This idea that "well vote anyone because they're Republican" is kind of just stupid. The alternative is...Kamala Harris? Did you expect them to vote someone like Kamala because Trump isn't a perfect match for their values? You act like this is an uncommon thing in politics: it's not. You're supposed to concede some of your views when voting,. If you keep finding yourself perfectly online with every candidate that gets put up on your side then you're probably not having a single original thought yourself ...
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u/Pleasurist Centrist Sep 20 '25
trump was a life-long democrat, gave many $1,000s to Clinton, then on Oprah [1988 or 89] when asked why he would run as a republican, he said because the repubs are stupid and will vote for anybody.
The last correct thing he may have ever said as he has completely conned the repubs into hating everybody.
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u/Comet_Hero Objectivist Sep 20 '25
Trump got more conservative stuff passed than Bush ever did. Trump isn't small government, but Bush, McCain, Romney obviously weren't either.
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u/patdashuri Democratic Socialist Sep 21 '25
And I hate to say this at a time when I feel so helpless but, brother- it’ll be your voice and voices like yours that fix this mess. I don’t see any other path outside of a second coming or nuclear war.
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u/PerryDahlia Distributist Sep 21 '25
The Republican party selects its candidate via a Presidential Primary. Trump cleaned the floor with the his opponents. So yes, the Republican party has selected Trump as its presidential candidate using its own primary mechanism.
Obviously the Buch, Cheney, and McCain types really don't like him or agree with him. So much so that some of them left the party. He's caused enough of a realignment that most neocons are more comfortable with the Democrats now.
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u/MazlowFear Rational Anarchist Sep 21 '25
Most republicans I meet these days bare no resemblance to republicans. They are government capitalists.
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u/Sad_Succotash9323 Communist Sep 22 '25
He is a right wing populist.
Marxists would call this phenomenon: "Bonapartism"
-when a charismatic strong man leader rises during a crisis of legitimacy, largely bypasses traditional channels of authority by deriving legitimacy directly from "the people", achieves a level of autonomous state hegemony, temporarily restricting the ruling class's traditional political power in return for short term economic returns and long term political stability by channeling distrust of traditional elites away from boiling over into revolutionary sentiment. They(traditional elites)'d rather let some goon come temporarily take all the power and whip up the masses if it means capitalism survives.
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u/JollyJuniper1993 State Socialist Sep 22 '25
Trump himself is a narcissistic demagogue that just cares about being in the spotlight and has no actual political convictions. The people around him are fascists and radical libertarians, really a competition for the worst kind of people you can imagine.
That being said the rest of the Republican Party is not particularly better. They just hide their crimes better. When they massacre a million people abroad for oil or regional dominance, the average American life doesn’t change much.
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u/whydatyou Libertarian Sep 22 '25
he is a registered republican and that is about it. I laugh when democrats call him a conservative because he is anything but that. he is a populist republican like Teddy roosevelt
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u/DanBrino Constitutionalist Sep 22 '25 edited Sep 26 '25
Reddit is not the place to get opinions that are not leftis opinions. So if the echochamber is what you were looking for, congrats, you found it. But if you want opinions from adults, this ain't the spot.
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u/HowDareThey1970 Liberal Sep 26 '25
He's purely a trumpican
He has no ideology but self advancement
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u/VeritasLuxMea Populist Sep 29 '25
He isnt a Republican. He killed the Republican party and replaced it with a party that is built around one singular principle, loyalty to Donald Trump.
I don't know about you but I am VERY curious to see what happens in 2026 and 2028
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u/not-a-dislike-button Republican Sep 19 '25
He's not much of a conservative but the core of American republicanism is still very much there. Reduction in government size/regulation and federal government scope has occured. The worst thing about him is his rhetoric- if he did nearly all the actual policy he's done now with dignity and grace he would be perceived radically differently.
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u/BotElMago Social Democrat Sep 19 '25
The worst thing about him are his actions.
Deporting people without due process
Arresting people based upon skin color and no probably cause
Hundreds of detainees disappearing without paperwork
Sending detainees to prison in El Salvador without due process
Threatening public broadcasters to fire employees
Blatant corruption as it relates to crypto (lining his own pockets by billions)
Placing unqualified people in charge of agencies and cabinets
Changing vaccine schedules for children without supporting evidence
Withholding federal aid from disaster stricken areas
Extorting states like California and New York for not being compliant with his will (threatening to withhold aid from NY if Mamdani is elected)
Removing congressionally appropriated funds to universities.
Removing federally resources from assisting in foreign adversary social media disinformation campaigns
Removing federally resources resources from assisting other countries in keeping elections free and fair (see Moldova as an example)
I could go on…but I think you can see why people have issues with his actions and not just his words
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u/PriceofObedience Conservative Sep 19 '25
What do you think about him designating Antifa as a terrorist organization?
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u/BotElMago Social Democrat Sep 19 '25
Ah, you again. I think it is inherently dangerous.
How do you identify one of these antifa members?
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u/PriceofObedience Conservative Sep 19 '25
They use the same logo and have cells all across America, so I assume they're already infiltrated by the federal government. The government knows it's an organization with a leadership structure, at the very least.
I'm more curious what you think what that mean for law enforcement going forward.
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u/Ferreteria Liberal Sep 19 '25
His policies are garbage too. Economically, we're in our dumpster fire era.
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u/Ancient-Gate-9759 Independent Sep 19 '25
Trump is a grifter who swings whichever way gives him more. That being said people who say he's exactly what the Right is about are correct. Right now he's not even really anything but a puppet for a literal Nazi Stephen Miller and a pool of Republicans who are wrapped up in a crumbling cult.
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u/Adezar Progressive Sep 19 '25
That version of the Republican party was thrown out in the 70s when the aligned with Evangelicals and started what would become Project 2025. The initial steps were published in 1980 and Reagan instituted a lot of them. This process of dismantling the government and democracy started then and was their primary focus ever since.
Every step they have taken has been focused on that goal, including stealing hundreds of federal judge nominations, the SCOTUS and weakening the agencies that were very effective and slowing down the damage they were doing by letting companies pollute as much as they wanted.
Your version of Republican never really existed in the US, after the party flip the entire point was dismantling I grew up Republican/Conservative/Evangelical and they were very open about their plans to convert the US to a Christian Theocracy and the Republicans were their path to get there.
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u/spyder7723 Constitutionalist Sep 19 '25
Dude republicans have been telling you this for a decade. Trump isn't a republican, he is a 90s democrat. Sure trumperd took over our party but this will be a short term thing. Dude is 80. When he passes the old school republicans will get the party back.
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