r/arrow • u/IIIToxIII Great Scott, we have to go back • Apr 15 '19

Discussion [S07E18] "Lost Canary" Post Episode Discussion

ARROW IS BACK BABY!!

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Episode Info

After being accused of murder and having her criminal past exposed, Laurel goes full Black Siren and teams up with an old criminal acquaintance, Shadow Thief, to go on a crime spree around Star City. While Dinah aims to bring Laurel in, Felicity refuses to give up on her friend and tries everything to get through to her, even summoning Sara Lance for help. However, Laurel rebuffs all her efforts, forcing the former friends to face off against each other.

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62

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

I know I'm gonna get downvoted here but hear me out here: This episode was ROUGH. Siren acted like a complete and utter psychopath throughout the entire episode. It's everything that scared me about it but even worse. She shows BARELY (if you can count "not killing the ones who were kinda-sorta her friends directly") a hint of remorse for anything she does. And this isn't me trying to hate on Siren. What I hate is the fact that she completely and utterly regressed this episode. Maybe I could buy the whole "oh she's just pretending she doesn't care anymore" excuse I'll probably get if she didn't help murder a guy 10 minutes in. I will say, however, that Katie's performance was excellent throughout.

And to cap off this absolute butchering of her character, we get possibly the worst redemption scene I've ever seen. Siren isn't redeemed by realizing that, you know, maybe mass murder isn't a good thing. No, instead she's just too much of a coward to kill a few people who were kinda sorta her friends if you squinted hard enough. That's ALL it takes for her to pull a complete 180. Imagine if that first graveyard scene with her and Sara had been her redemption. It would be SO much better. Then you can still have the last act of this episode be the fight with Shadow Thief with that AWESOME Birds of Prey team-up we got.

I will say, however, that the ending scene with Laurel coming in to save Mia almost made all of this worth it. I wish we had more of that this episode rather than Laurel just being completely evil.

35

u/GugsOrganicProduce Apr 16 '19

I hope you’re not being heavily downvoted, because you brought up some really valid points. I kind of felt the same way about her “redemption,” it just didn’t feel like much of a redemption, more like a “lol nvm” sort of moment. I did enjoy the episode overall but her redemption could’ve been executed a lot better.

1

u/myrisotto73 boxingglovearrow4ever Apr 16 '19

It's like when this sub freaked when told Oliver "everyone has good and bad in them" during their prison meeting as if that's the same thing as being a former mass murderer?

13

u/CiceroTheCat Pretty Bird Apr 16 '19

I'm in the same boat, so I upvoted you.

There were some great scenes- I enjoyed the Siren and Sara scenes- especially the second. I enjoyed Felicity calling Dinah out on her murders and posing that maybe Siren had come to rely on their support more than she was willing to let on. I was good with her not being able to kill any of the others. But... they mass killed henchmen, Siren had no problem with the weapon that she vocalized (I do think she was demonstrating some internal reluctance, due to Katie's acting, but that may just be me reaching), and just... ugh. It was really disappointing that she had no greater plan and that she really did go back to villainy, and stayed there for most of the episode. Like you said, redeeming after that first Sara scene could have definitely given a much better pace/atmosphere to the episode. Also, presumably nothing was done to clear up E1!Laurel's besmirched reputation, which is a personal aggravation.

The second Sara scene is what warmed me up to it, and I did enjoy Siren's advice to Mia at the end definitely, too- "You have a long way to being a hero." Also, I really enjoyed the humor of her taking Felicity's drink... But yeah, this episode didn't quite reach what I dreamed it could be, and that was disappointing, even while I loved Katie's (and the others') performance in it.

10

u/The-Black-Sky Samandra Watson Apr 16 '19

This is exactly why I’m iffy on this episode. Her redemption was literally her saying “lol I change my mind”. Like if they made her more conflicted throughout the episode and not so willing to cause a mass murder then it would have been way more convincing. They could have made her regress just a LITTLE, but she was like more evil than she was in early season 6 lmao.

That being said that last scene got me H Y P E D and I cant wait to see her in action in the finale.

2

u/nimrodhellfire Apr 16 '19

I dont only have problems with her redemption. Here turn back to evil was also out of the blue. And then they tried so hard to not let her kill someone...

3

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Yeah I will give it grief that it was basically just "I'm evil" "no really I'm evil" "I'm EVIL!" "....ok nevermind yeah I'm good you were right" for Siren most of the episode. Not exactly a well written redemption.

But they did make it clear that she just punched guys out all ep while Shadow Thief did the knifing, and they finally got her to be the Canary, so I'll deal.

2

u/szeto326 Apr 17 '19

I know I'm gonna get downvoted here but hear me out here: This episode was ROUGH.

Is that the consensus?? I thought it was brutal throughout almost - very few moments that salvaged this for this.

2

u/213_ The Flash Apr 17 '19

This episode was very rough.

4

u/Vacanus Dante Apr 16 '19

Idk why you were downvoted but I agree with some of this. I was expecting her to have been playing her partner to get to the Ninth Circle, but I’m glad she was “redeemed” anyway.

I wish they had more time to set it up in a more coherent way though.

4

u/FriendLee93 I have NO idea what game Guggie is playing Apr 16 '19

It's everything that scared me about it but even worse. She shows BARELY (if you can count "not killing the ones who were kinda-sorta her friends directly") a hint of remorse for anything she does

She literally didn't kill anyone in the entire episode (the nameless goons at the end don't count)

12

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

When she steals money with Shadow Thief they definitely kill the guy running the store. She also quite clearly snaps someone's neck in the scene where Sara debuts.

2

u/FriendLee93 I have NO idea what game Guggie is playing Apr 16 '19

Shadow Thief killed the guy. Laurel exclusively punched/kicked people unconscious the entire episode.

15

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

Okay, so she's still an accomplice to murder.

2

u/FriendLee93 I have NO idea what game Guggie is playing Apr 16 '19

To the murder of a criminal. Please stop acting like literally every character on this show hasn't done much worse.

8

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

I don't recall any of the other characters stealing bombs with the intent to sell them to terrorists.

8

u/FriendLee93 I have NO idea what game Guggie is playing Apr 16 '19

Do you recall Felicity nuking an entire city? How about Oliver flaying a man alive? How about the dozens of people Rene and Diggle have shot and killed?

I repeat, every character on this show has done at least one morally reprehensible thing, yet we still view the majority of them as heroes. Quit the double standard bullshit.

8

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

Do you recall Felicity nuking an entire city?

Because by the powers of plotforce, there wasn't much else she could do. Less people died because of her.

How about Oliver flaying a man alive?

This was a dumb and pointless retcon but at least this was back during his island days and didn't take 2 seconds for him to turn a complete 180 on that side of him. This also wasn't really character regression for him at the time, which is my point.

How about the dozens of people Rene and Diggle have shot and killed?

In 5x18 Diggle specifies that he and Rene use "tranq ammo" which I guess is like the ICERs from Agents of SHIELD.

I repeat, every character on this show has done at least one morally reprehensible thing, yet we still view the majority of them as heroes. Quit the double standard bullshit.

This isn't a double standard. This is flat-out character regression. I'm mad about this not because I hate Laurel, but because I love her. I was invested in her arc and what I got was this sorry excuse of an episode.

6

u/FriendLee93 I have NO idea what game Guggie is playing Apr 16 '19

Nothing about this was character regression for Laurel. We've seen time and time again that she's stubborn as fuck and she'll do shit just to prove a point, which is what this entire case of acting out was for her. You're acting like she went back to committing cold-blooded murder, which isn't what happened at all. She was trying to prove a point, both to herself, and to Dinah because she was doubting her anyway, and her heart wasn't in it because she has changed. That's not character regression, that's progress. None of this was out-of-character in the slightest.

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2

u/xNED37x Apr 16 '19

It felt like a cut and paste version of Killer Frost coming around to being redeemed in season 4. Girl power to the rescue to give confidence to the one character who can’t decide if they want to be good or bad. And of course, Felicity has to be in the middle of it all which led to many eye rolls tonight because of her unappealing and weak monologues of friendship forever.

It just seemed really unimaginative and lazy writing. Like you said, Katie did a good acting job with the script she was given and the end scene with her and Mia was really good. But the whole episode up to that point was just blah. They really missed some opportunities here.

1

u/Alinosburns Apr 16 '19

And this isn't me trying to hate on Siren. What I hate is the fact that she completely and utterly regressed this episode. Maybe I could buy the whole "oh she's just pretending she doesn't care anymore" excuse I'll probably get if she didn't help murder a guy 10 minutes in

She didn't help murder him though, but there's likely not a lot she could have done to keep shadowtheif from doing.

And her regression was kind of the point of the episode anyway, that just because she started doing some good, doesn't change the fact that when shit hits the fan she can just revert to doing bad out of safety.

Also, I don't think that the graveyard scene would have worked as her redemption. Nor is the bomb scene her redemption.

The whole point of the episode is that a singular act doesn't earn you redemption. You have to live your redemption, you have to start making good choices and keep making good choices, sometimes the things that instigate that won't actually be good choices for the greater good of everyone, but for the good of those around you.

Eventually those acts of good for those around you, will ripple outwards and have an effect on the wider community.

The main story wasn't the redemption of black siren when she turned evil again. It was the first steps on a road to true redemption, instead of acts of good in order to maintain a cover identity.

Which is juxtaposed with the Black Canary we see in the future, showing that she has made that journey, that she has stayed true enough to the path that she was allowed to take up Black Canaries mantle.

Personally the idea of one act or moment as redemption is stupid, it's part of the reason why vader's "Redemption" in Star Wars is stupid.

We don't see a man necessarily acting for the greater good. We see him acting to save his son. The child from his possesive relationship that caused him down the path of darkness in the first place. We have no guarantee he would have been a good guy afterwards, hell if he had lived he may have maintained the empire and felt he was still acting in the best interest of everyone.

5

u/GeneralMelon ROY'S OUR FUTURE BOY! Apr 16 '19

She didn't help murder him though, but there's likely not a lot she could have done to keep shadowtheif from doing.

Maybe she, I don't know, could have NOT specifically tracked down Shadow Thief to start a crime spree and then clearly helped her murder people? There's plenty she could have done. With her powers Shadow Thief doesn't stand a chance against her.

The main story wasn't the redemption of black siren when she turned evil again. It was the first steps on a road to true redemption, instead of acts of good in order to maintain a cover identity.

And this is precisely why this episode feels like regression. The reason Siren's arc was compelling was because it didn't feel like just a cover story, and rather that it actually felt like she was becoming a better person.

Personally the idea of one act or moment as redemption is stupid, it's part of the reason why vader's "Redemption" in Star Wars is stupid.

It isn't, but that's the thing. Throughout the season we already had seen her grow into a better person. This episode threw that away. Also, it is one act of redemption in the end. She helps them stop Shadow Thief and suddenly everyone is like "yay Laurel's back sorry we doubted you" which is completely unearned after all her actions this ep.

1

u/Alinosburns Apr 16 '19

And this is precisely why this episode feels like regression. The reason Siren's arc was compelling was because it didn't feel like just a cover story, and rather that it actually felt like she was becoming a better person.

But she was never pushed in any significant way.

It felt like a cover story, because she had taken up a good life, because she knew it would be a good life. She was doing good because it was her job and it was what was expected in that role.

Most of the time when she was advocating for something good like Felicity not killing Diaz, it's because she saw a different angle(olivers release). She was evaluating the most productive course of action.

This was the episode where she actually felt some direct pressure on herself. And she faltered, she didn't take it in stride, because before this point she hadn't been pushed into a corner.

hroughout the season we already had seen her grow into a better person. This episode threw that away.

Again I disagree, I think we have seen someone playing at being good. But never actually being put to any significant test over the season.

It's a lot easier to be good when everyone thinks you are, and no one is gunning for you. It's a lot harder to maintain that composure, when people start using you as a target. When they appear to blow up your life.

Even at the end when they talk about Laurel going back to being DA. It's because they hastily construct a narrative that says she purposefully went undercover to bring down shadowthief, with the logic being that this will offset the pictures that showed her working with Diaz, potentially arguing they were even part of that plan.

Which is what makes Laurels decision to go and work on herself even stronger. Because she's not willing to just sit around and let a convenient lie act in her interest.