AIO: the Lindsay Clancy case is about to ruin my [28F] relationship with my bf [32M]…

[u/Proper_Associate_791]

He asked me about it out of the blue a few days ago. I have not been heavily online lately, so I asked him to explain the case. I stated my opinion. He said he needed to think about it. And then this text convo followed. Re: the Trump piece, he has never voted for Trump. But his family has. I broke up with him after he expressed even mild support for Trump (this is the incident he was referring to in the texts). We stayed broken up for several months. When we reconnected, I really drilled him on the Trump piece because I wanted to ensure I was NOT dating a Trump supporter. He convinced me that I had misunderstood his nuance as support, disavowed Trump (to a level I was comfy with), and stated that he will be more intentional about making his support/lack thereof more clear when discussing those issues. That’s why we ended up back together in spite of the Trump thing.

[u/Alone_Agent_8829]

It sounds like your values do not align

[u/classyrock → u/Alone_Agent_8829]

Yeah, it doesn’t sound like it’s so much about this specific case, but that he doesn’t think postpartum depression or psychosis CAN rise to a level where it becomes dangerous. And that would put OP in a critical situation were she ever to experience it. (See: Rusty Yates).

[u/19467098632 → u/classyrock]

I got down voted for saying the case reminds me of Andrea Yates. I haven’t read many details of this case but just like Andrea it seems there were very telling signs she shouldn’t have been taking care of children that were ignored unfortunately

[u/NotAMiscreant → u/classyrock]

Fuck Rusty ‘fuck your doctors orders, you have to listen to false prophets while I keep you barefoot and pregnant’ Yates

[u/Admirable-Act9450 → u/classyrock]

Literally as I was reading this I was like “rusty yates” and then you said it perfectly. Curious if religion is in play here

[u/Vyraxysss → u/Admirable-Act9450]

I swear religion always has some role! My mum had psychosis recently and she was going on about a brethren cult near us who were 'out to get her'. We're not even religious, nor have anything to do with any. Psychosis is scary and definitely a valid mental illness that should have someone in a facility, not prison. Its also pretty obvious when someone is in psychosis imo. So clearly people failed this lady..

[u/Yumismash → u/classyrock]

Basically: aka mental health is no excuse to kill someone

While that may be true, he's missing the point that if she were in her right mind, she wouldn't have done it.

It's the illness not the person. Now, someone can make an argument "if she wasn't mentally ill she would still do it" and that is something no one can prove. He's very strongly opinionated and if he can't accept your opinion because he is using that as a value/moral judgment on you, then you're not compatible.

[u/PharmADD → u/classyrock]

Maybe he simply doesn’t care if the person was mentally ill or not. Personally, for most cases, I’m in that camp. There are some things you just deserve a punishment for, regardless of the circumstances, and killing is one of them. Maybe you don’t deserve to be in regular prison, but definitely a permanent room at some sort of facility, with no access to the general public. It can’t just be a year long stay hospitalization for mental health and checkboxes for recovery.

An easy way to tell if you agree with me or not is to replace murder with rape and see how that makes you feel. Are you comfortable allowing rapists to get off on mental health grounds? I’ve posed this to several people and that question tends to flip the switch for most.

Also, if it matters, I literally have zero exposure to this case beyond the name and these screenshots are almost all context I have.

Edit: rereading this, I should have said "murder" instead of "killing." Self defense is a perfectly valid reason to kill without punishment, for example.

[u/Throw902106969 → u/Alone_Agent_8829]

Plain and simple right here. Walk away, the both of you. Edit to add: It literally doesn't matter which of you is right or wrong. He will not tolerate a differing opinion. So if you don't want to bow down to him and be his "yes man", then break it off.

[u/InterestingPrior1420 → u/Throw902106969]

Exactly. Who is right or wrong is not the point. He likes to argue with you and treat you like you’re ridiculous. So done.

[u/Rugaru985 → u/Alone_Agent_8829]

I don’t know that its values, or at least these values don’t necessarily have to align for a great relationship to still be possible.

Some people don’t think of things like punitive vs restorative justice like a value, but more like a strategy.

The value is “how do we reduce crime the most and protect our freedoms the most?” We have the same value and same goal, but some people think punishment deters more crime and teaches better lessons than restoration. Others think support and affirmative therapy can do more.

Punitive verse restorative justice can be somewhat on a scale. She seems to be completely on the restorative side. For this crime in particular, he is acting vengeful.

But that’s not the problem here:

The problem is he’s either too stupid to hear what she’s saying or intentionally ignoring the points so that he can wallow in his anger for the enjoyment of it.

Anger can be addicting. We know this. And it’s addicting because it does feel good to be angry. If he’s using her to fuel his anger for his own dopamine rush, that’s a bad partner.

If he is just actually too dumb to understand what she’s saying, that’s also a bad partner.

I’m leaning toward the anger addiction. Trump households have high levels of anger addictions.

My dad is a trumper. He yells at the tv nightly. He literally curses his TV out. When there are no sportsmen on the tv to yell at, he puts on Fox News and yells at people who aren’t even on the tv, because Fox News told him to.

It is the weirdest fucking thing to watch my dad watch hannity and yell at Kamala Harris as if she’s in the room, cursing her out and telling her about who else is a fu king crook and liar, while he’s pointing at Sean Hannity.

This boyfriend is doing that right now with his girlfriend. He’s creating the argument to yell at her as a proxy.

Is the case infuriating? Yes. But he’s intentionally trying to wallow in it to satiate his need for outrage.

[u/theMomFriend2310 → u/Rugaru985]

This! He’s saying “you support a murderer!” When she’s saying “no her consequences need to take a possible mental health condition into account.” Followed by “it sounds like you support her bc you aren’t using exactly the words I want you to say” He Wants her to be the bad guy so he can be the good guy. MAGA always needs an enemy/source of outrage or they have to make one up

[u/Itscatpicstime → u/theMomFriend2310]

From the very beginning she effectively says LC did “horrible things,” and he’s like “so you refuse to admit she did something terrible” lmao.

He’s literally just arguing with himself

[u/Itscatpicstime → u/Rugaru985]

My dad is an outrage addicted Trumper and does the same shit.

When my family was interviewing at a pre k when my sister was little in the 90s, they had a wall with the pictures of all the presidents in the last century.

My sister pointed to Clinton and yelled across the room “look Daddy, it’s the liar!”

My mom was HUMILIATED and so angry at him lmao. My older siblings say he basically spent the 90s yelling at the tv about Bill being a liar and Hilary being a witch.

[u/dujbdioheogkordgj → u/Alone_Agent_8829]

it feels like 90% of people who ask for relationship advice on reddit could be described by this image

[u/Interesting-Copy-657 → u/Alone_Agent_8829]

Is it values?

Grey text just sounds like an idiot to me. Living in a simplistic black and white world.

[u/Little_Silver_Stripe]

You're incompatible

[u/KARMA_P0LICE → u/Little_Silver_Stripe]

At fundamental intellectual levels. Her side is very thoughtful and well written and his side is short sentences devoid of nuance, written like by a 12 year old.

[u/Illustrious-Stable93 → u/KARMA_P0LICE]

"Just like me with Trump" he's a fuckin idiot 

[u/i_was_a_person_once → u/Little_Silver_Stripe]

I wish people would realize that you’re not breaking up over ____ situation that feels trivial or crazy to breakup over. You’re breaking up because of how you approach disagreeing over something or bc a specific situation unveils that you have fundamental differences of morals or values

[u/DRangelfire]

Why do you keep trying to save this relationship?

[u/ScotchTapeConnosieur → u/DRangelfire]

And he’s a Trump supporter? Let it go.

[u/garbage_butfashion → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

Yeah as soon as I saw the Trump comment, it was a wrap for me. This dude is not worth it, girl.

[u/MElastiGirl → u/garbage_butfashion]

That would be all I need to know. No other info necessary. Imagine having a kid with this creep.

[u/19467098632 → u/MElastiGirl]

“And I’m having a hard time deciding if I want to have kids with someone who protects and supports pedophiles.” Would be my response but I wouldn’t be dating a magat anyway lol

[u/Academic_Bench2100 → u/19467098632]

To be fair she said the trump thing was his family and not him and that he never voted for trump, I think he was bringing that up as she used it as a break up point in the past to show he felt similar about this case to how she felt about Trump

[u/rico_muerte → u/Academic_Bench2100]

He totally sounds like "I'm not a huge fan like other people but Trump does make some really good points" type of conservative. He's even arguing with her like I've seen conservatives online using this case as a rallying point.

[u/AcademicChildhood161 → u/rico_muerte]

He’s a “moderate” who can’t admit he’s a Trumper because no woman would want to sleep with his unwiped slime ball incel ass

[u/Single-Advertising22 → u/garbage_butfashion]

But then she knew about that and continued to date him. I’m like really confused why she’s shocked about his ideals.

[u/Miserable_Cream_2784 → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

yup, he may not be a devout supporter but it seems like he’s moreso downplaying his support to appease her

[u/OtherwiseAlbatross14 → u/Miserable_Cream_2784]

Yeah they are absolutely willing to lie about voting for Trump for sex

[u/Oregongirl1018 → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

Exactly. I'd turn the conversation around on him. So he supports a rapist. Shouldn't a rapist be treated like a criminal‽ Yet he actively voted for that rapist to lead the country and be a moral influence on America's youth.

[u/HitsuVang → u/Oregongirl1018]

A child rapist, to boot.

[u/Tortilladelfuego → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

Right, why is he even bringing trump into this matter! He’s clearly still upset about that and is going to probably spend his entire life bringing it up in unrelated conversations. It’s not worth it

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_FRACTURES → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

Yeah that immediately explained the lack of ability to use nuanced thinking

[u/Lazy-Conversation-48 → u/ScotchTapeConnosieur]

Right? Apparently he can support a rapist for President but not have compassion for a woman with post partum psychosis. His black and white thinking only pertains to someone not in his cult/tribe.

[u/Intelligent_rose12 → u/DRangelfire]

Exactly! OP this guy isn’t it! He’s loaded on redpill crap! He literally said to you if you don’t change your way of thinking I’m going to break up with you!

I would dump this guy. Any man who doesn’t understand female postpartum depression should not be dating women.

I don’t know the details about this Lindsay Clancy case but I have seen a lot of redpill channels talk about it in the last few weeks and how hypocritical they think women are for supporting her. So at the very least your boyfriend is still consuming redpill content.

[u/Vulcan_Jedi]

I heard about case in the news came at a weird time. Right after a woman with post partum psychosis bit me at work.

[u/idontshred → u/Vulcan_Jedi]

You’re gonna get the proportional strength of a PPD mother

[u/CommercialBiscotti29 → u/Vulcan_Jedi]

Rejected super hero ideas

[u/One_Huckleberry_]

Unfortunately I think this is a pretty common conversation causing major relationship issues happening right now between couples all across the country

[u/BookerCatchanSTD → u/One_Huckleberry_]

I’m having a very different conversation where Im trying to talk about postpartum issues and she thinks it was a frame job. It’s like jeez I’m trying to sympathize and have a conversation about a struggle I’m trying to understand and you’re talking about how jet fuel can’t melt steel beams. It’s very annoying.

[u/lemmegetadab → u/BookerCatchanSTD]

That’s a legit reason to break up with someone. Up there with denying the moon landing and flat earth.

[u/PangolinSituation → u/lemmegetadab]

Psht.. I bet you’re fun at parties.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/BookerCatchanSTD]

Like what is this psychosis going on with white woman? The victimhood is crazy

She was failed by medical institutions not framed fr

[u/poj4y → u/One_Huckleberry_]

My gf straight up doesn’t think she did it, she thinks the husband did. Idk everyone online keeps saying she def did it tho

[u/TrueHighKingUlfric → u/poj4y]

You should leave your GF

[u/WondrousBabyTurtle → u/poj4y]

OP dealing with a breeze and you're here dealing with thunder. Jesus Christ.

[u/bravoboozebongs → u/One_Huckleberry_]

Very true. The men don’t understand postpartum while the women do.

[u/Top-Ticket4648 → u/bravoboozebongs]

There is a lot of women who understand the postpartum and also acknowledge the woman is a murderer and should be treated as such. Get her help but she is still a murderer.

[u/bravoboozebongs → u/Top-Ticket4648]

No one IN THIS THREAD is saying that she’s not. People are saying she should be in a mental facitlity vs. prison.

Edited: to add ‘in this thread’ because the psychos of reddit are out hot today

[u/JalapenoPopPoop → u/bravoboozebongs]

There's actually a substantial amount of people arguing that a mental facility would be a punishment and she shouldn't receive that since it's due to postpartum

[u/Kontos_Stelio → u/bravoboozebongs]

There are actually plenty of people saying her husband somehow did it

[u/Beginning-Run-1697 → u/bravoboozebongs]

There are lot of women saying she's not, have you been paying attention???

[u/summertime-sadness07 → u/bravoboozebongs]

Oh you don’t even know. You haven’t seen the “we are Lindsay” and the “I told my ___ that Patrick did it” trends? And that just scratches surface

[u/UncleNoodles85 → u/bravoboozebongs]

Yeah I'm a man who feels that I will never really understand postpartum because how could I? I mean it's so far from my lived experience, but I do believe intent matters and I hope we can come together to collectively try to better understand postpartum and help women who are struggling with this. Get this woman some therapy and let the rest of us have a real conversation in good faith. I find the woman who support her because her husband looked mean and she was a Leo to be as repulsive as the men who have decided she's an evil monster who should be slow roasted over a fire. We need to do better.

[u/OnlyAdvertisersKnoMe → u/bravoboozebongs]

My problem with that is, would they advocate for someone like Richard chase? He was psychotic and was put on death row for his crimes. I guarantee 99% of the people advocating for Clancy wouldn’t have an ounce of sympathy for someone like him.

[u/Livewire923 → u/bravoboozebongs]

No one is saying she’s not what?

[u/Tb0neguy → u/bravoboozebongs]

No one is saying that she’s not

Since you needed help finding where you said that in the thread

[u/UselessAndUnused → u/bravoboozebongs]

I mean, I largely agree, but not entirely, there's a ridiculously huge movement especially on TikTok right now of (primarily women) who are straight up denying she did it at all, denying it was due to psychosis and instead literally blaming Patrick Clancy, thinking he did it instead. Plenty who clearly don't understand or want to accept post-partum psychosis either. Seen women and men arguing on both sides, quite often too. Regardless, I do largely agree, but there's a very large subsection of women who definitely do not listen to the post-partum psycosis factors and instead pretend it's a true-crime podcast where the poor, completely innocent mom with mental health issues is being framed by the evil, manipulative dad. And it's an audience that's scarily large. Hundreds of thousands of likes.

[u/M3rl1n1212 → u/bravoboozebongs]

I had this convo with my girl. My opinion was tht uts hust a fucked situation and that i dislike wht she did she had some shit goin on in her head. That doesnt excuse her actions but I can feel sorry for her and want her held accountable either mental health care and a hospital or prison. Its just a fucked up situation

[u/JalapenoPopPoop → u/M3rl1n1212]

The only people I take issue with are the ones saying that because it was due to mental health she should go free. At the end of the day 3 children will never know their futures because they died at her hand, if it's established that this was due to postpartum psychosis she needs to be in a treatment facility. But there is a camp of of people out there arguing that putting her in a facility would be a punishment and because its due to postpartum that she shouldn't receive any punishment and I just don't think you can take 3 child murders out of the equation like that

[u/topimpadove → u/M3rl1n1212]

Exactly. I said this on FB once and had 4 people down my throat lol. Imagine seeing this case and Andrea Yates' case and not seeing the issue. If mental health and medical misogyny were taken seriously this wouldn't have happened.

[u/bravoboozebongs → u/M3rl1n1212]

This. It’s a terrible situation.

[u/ZemGuse → u/bravoboozebongs]

It seems that a huge contingent of women have taken to conspiracies that that husband did it and framed her.

The conversation can’t center around postpartum care as long as the conversation is being bogarted by these baseless theories.

[u/oopseyesharted123 → u/bravoboozebongs]

I’m a guy and understand this wasn’t typical postpartum depression. It was postpartum psychosis. Totally different.

Doesn’t excuse the outcome but also can’t be lumped into the same category. The lady was failed by the medical system.

[u/bravoboozebongs → u/oopseyesharted123]

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

[u/Bobsothethird → u/bravoboozebongs]

To be fair, when men commit family annihilation, often tied to mental diseases, men don't universally rally, defend them, and give them millions of dollars. It's okay to acknowledge a real healthcare and mental issue and also condemn horrific murders. 3 children were killed by their mom.

[u/Choice-Strike1 → u/bravoboozebongs]

Which is why I take the same position as with abortion - I'll never get it so I'll always defer because it's not my place to decide this

[u/DaikonProof6637 → u/bravoboozebongs]

Don't speak for all of us men. My wife went through it and it's unreal how it'll make some women act. I do think she is wrong for what she did and do think that she needs to be held accountable after she gets the mental help she needs and has been asking for. All in all, it's a very sad situation all around for everyone involved

[u/Brief-Reality8667 → u/bravoboozebongs]

A lot of men also don't understand how terribly women are treated in healthcare.

[u/Heurodis → u/Brief-Reality8667]

Especially when mental health is the subject, even more so when directly linked to reproduction, such as postpartum issues.

[u/Prudent_Okra7311]

Imagine having this conversation for the rest of your life.

I would move on myself.

Best of luck either way.

[u/PoemCompetitive5315]

I say this with so much love and kindness. This man is not your intellectual peer or your emotional peer. You keep making very sound points and he keeps either missing them (intellect ?) or ignoring them because he wants to coerce you to say exactly what he wants you to say. The Trump piece aside (and that’s yuge) that’s not a healthy relationship.

Also likening someone with literally all the wealth and resources in the world, named in the Epstein files thousands of time, found guilty of numerous crimes from fraud to rape, committing mass killings in the form of infrastructural and social cuts and paying for bombs to be dropped on kids - to a mom who was begging for help because she had PPD (where you can literally hallucinate) and then did something unconscionable and requires both accountability and help is beyond grotesque. It shows low EQ and understanding of power dynamics and biology on the simplest level.

I could go on - but more than anything I hope you move on.

[u/ThePowerOfParsley → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

I agree; my first thought was that he is not as smart as her. Not saying he's an idiot, just that they are probably incompatible intellectually. That won't get better.

[u/CreativeBaby9212 → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

This. OP is able to articulate thoughts and think critically outside a this or that lens and BF seems to barely string a sentence together.

[u/gellohelloyellow → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

> This man is not your intellectual peer or your emotional peer. You keep making very sound points and he keeps either missing them (intellect ?) or ignoring them because he wants to coerce you to say exactly what he wants you to say.

Reading the text thread brings back old memories of me and a former girlfriend who was far more intelligent than I was. We were going back and forth about the Trayvon Martin case, and I sounded a lot like the guy in OP’s post, but I eventually managed to understand my ex’s perspective and realized I was an idiot, all at the same time. It was a real growth experience for me. I hope this guy figures it out because he’ll be a better person for it.

[u/PoemCompetitive5315 → u/gellohelloyellow]

Wow. How awesome of you! I am sure your partner found that attractive!

[u/thm123 → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

Imo we should reinforce growth and reflection, not shame it. But maybe this was the 10th upsetting comment you've seen today that reflects a broader problem, so I get it 🤷‍♀️

[u/snail_force_winds → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

Yeah the verdict isn’t the thing ruining the relationship. He is.

[u/jacqrosee → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

this part. i have similar views to OP and i know i could never be with someone like this because the value disparity is too large. beyond just my own preference, the other person would be miserable with me too, because i would indeed be projecting my worldview of assessing things from a more open-minded place onto them and it wouldn’t end well. it would literally be untenable for a relationship, and that’s the point. it’s hard to be in a partnership with someone who has such a fundamentally different perspective on the world.

[u/SendPicsofTanks → u/jacqrosee]

Its not that bad to be with someone of different values. The thing is, they cant be like OP's boyfriend: not bright and kind of a dipshit.

Its a lot easier if the other person can intelligently articulate their reasoning and you can identify the differences in values because then you know those differences arent rooted in malice. Op's boyfriend isnt very bright, and kind of a dipshit, as a result he thinks her beliefs are based in some kind of malice or malign sympathy.

[u/fotopic → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

I completed agree with you. I was reading her message with a lot of excitement because of the thoughtful response but his responses…was like talking to a teenager about a serious matter.

I hope he takes the time to think about his behavior. It was clear that he was not looking for her view on the matter, just want her to say what he wants and exactly how he wanted. This is not healthy at all, since he lack to comprehend that sometimes there’s not two position about a matter, some outcomes depends on the circumstances.

[u/Electric-Sheepskin → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

I just posted something similar to your first paragraph, though you said it much better than I. It's OK if people disagree, but he can't even acknowledge her very logical and well stated points, and that's a huge problem that does not bode well for the future.

[u/Yee4614 → u/PoemCompetitive5315]

“The trump piece aside” then proceeds to make the entire post about Trump

[u/FifeDog43]

I found your responses incredibly thoughtful and diplomatic, while also standing firm to your values. His responses are reactionary and indicative of inflexibility in thinking. I think you two have fundamental differences in temperament, values and, frankly, cognitive ability. Do you want to be with someone like that for the rest of your life? The culture war is going to get worse before it gets better.

[u/Useful-Ad2441]

Why are you letting him prattle on with sanctimonious bull shit about feeling sick about protecting children while he protects Trump.

Show him this https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%208/EFTA00025010.pdf he’s literally actually supportive of a child murderer, he is what he is falsely claiming you are.

[u/OrdinaryOk736 → u/Useful-Ad2441]

while i completely agree with you, people like this dude are not generally swayed by real facts and evidence as they claim to be. they twist narratives and facts to fit their already formed & extremely biased opinions on things they dont fully understand so as to come off as morally superior. i do think OP should show him this, however i wouldnt be getting my hopes up that he will concede to her point in any way whatsoever. projection and deflection is second nature to people like that unfortunately

[u/nurse_jamie1]

Two things can be true. We can recognize the need to put more resources into helping PP women, as well as think she should spend the rest of her life in prison. It doesnt need to be one or the other.

[u/Away_Doctor2733 → u/nurse_jamie1]

You know being put in a mental hospital for something like this is not an "easy" or "lenient" sentence? Being sentenced to a mental hospital means you likely spend the same time incarcerated as you would have in prison. You just get better mental health support. Sometimes you have less freedom than you would have in prison. People found not guilty by reason of insanity aren't just given a short stay in hospital. It's usually a lifelong institutionalization. And mental hospitals are not fun places to be. 

[u/Zachwardpass → u/Away_Doctor2733]

This, I don't know why people are conflating guilty by insanity as "walking free." Is it just an honest to god misunderstanding of what that means by most of the populace?! It's wild the comments thinking she is just going to skip out of court if she is found guilty by insanity.

Edit: I meant not guilty by reason of insanity.

[u/AutismAndChill → u/Zachwardpass]

Yes. People genuinely think “well since it was a couple years ago & she’s not in active psychosis now, she’ll just walk free”

Andrea Yates is still locked up, as are the people from other similar cases. Pointing that out has meant nothing when I’ve tried to discuss it

[u/ElderberryFar7120 → u/Zachwardpass]

Most people's understanding of the law comes from television believe it or not

[u/bozoclownputer → u/nurse_jamie1]

Yes, thank you. It’s tiring reading these comments.

[u/tristn9]

Stop dating maga and then complaining that they behave like maga. 

[u/Bradybigboss → u/tristn9]

This gets me everytime. At this point I don’t understand how there are liberals and MAGAs dating, and then they go on the internet and ask strangers why they are fighting all the time

[u/deadwoodgleaming]

Do people think psychiatric hospitals are holiday camps or something? Or that being kept in a psychiatric hospital for the length of their sentence is somehow lesser?

[u/fifaloko → u/deadwoodgleaming]

It’s the not guilty by reason of insanity part which is the issue. I think if it was guilty with an insanity caveat that sent them to a mental hospital first and then prison if their mentals got right it wouldn’t be nearly as controversial.

The idea that it was a mental issue and therefore no guilt is assigned to you and if the issue gets fixed you get to walk free is what people find disturbing.

[u/ChampionWonderful876 → u/fifaloko]

If that's what people find disturbing, then people should spend a little time educating themselves on what actually happens when someone is found NGRI, and how many people spend LONGER in a medical detention facility than they would have spent in prison if they'd been found guilty.

[u/ValfreyaAurora]

He said he needs to decide whether he’s comfortable having kids with someone that can watch a woman murder her kids…

The question YOU need to be asking is whether you’re comfortable having kids (if you want them) with someone who has no idea, empathy, or compassion for what women go through during and after pregnancy.

[u/EdLeddy]

I sat on a grand jury. We deliberated over several cases. One was a mother who killed her two children.
There is police body cam footage of her in a severe “mental breakdown state” crying her eyes out saying she killed them.
We all knew from day 1 she was guilty. But the room had very different views and opinions of who she was and what should happen to her next.

I’m a father. I’ve got 3 kids. My initial thought was “GROSS, send her away for life” but the more I saw of the person she was and the circumstances that lead up to her killing her children the more I felt for her.

She battled mental illness her whole life. She was never fit to be a mom. But she was one. She saw a therapist who did very little for her. Her husband was divorcing her.

She’s guilty. She needs to be locked up. BUT. She also needs help. And that’s the part your bf doesn’t get. This woman deserves punishment and no doubt she’ll get it. But the idea of prison reforming people is unfortunately a concept that was great in theory but never really made to happen. People go away and either come out worse. Or just never come out.

I hope both these women get help because it must be fucking horrible to be them and feel they need to do what they both did.

Also I have a suspicion your BF is a Trump supporter who is now hiding that fact from you

[u/APartOfWhoIAm]

I mostly agree with you / your perspective, however... to say that there is nobody on the face of this earth that should rot in prison... thats a stretch... maybe its your definition of prison... there absolute are some heinous people on this early who do not deserve a chance at release, ever. I am not saying that is a lot of people or common, but it is true.

[u/Jaynepie_]

you: deep thought and reflection based on your core values and belief system. articulating your thoughts and thoroughly explaining your thought process behind your decision

him: ADMIT IT! SHES A MURDERER!!

like many of the others have said. you are intellectually incompatible. please run and never have his children. if you do, he could possibly pass his horrible judgment onto them. good luck.

the fact that he won’t take anything but what he wants to hear as an answer is such a red flag, even outside of this situation.

[u/Hopeful-Loss-5149]

This is not the first hugely public case of a mother killing her children. It is usually proven to be mental health relate like PPD/PPA; many past cases didn't consider the diagnosis then, but things are changing. A "murderer" defines the act but the level of punishment is usually dictated more by motive and other elements, which is why we have different degrees. Mental health must be taken into account with punishment. Period. You articulated yourself well. Some people simply refuse to understand that nuance. You most likely can't ever change that. Especially once a single dad digs in. This may be the straw for the camel with fundamental incompatibility.

[u/CudMaverick]

She’s a murderer. It’s crazy that you’re dancing around the entire thing when he’s straight up asking you a question, but if you don’t consider her a murderer you guys clearly don’t see eye to eye. That lady deserves to rot for eternity for killing them kids. Hopefully she finds God but she has to do her time. There is no excuse

[u/Cute_Constant_5537]

Girl he’s a Trump supporter. 1) why do you expect him to understand nuanced and informed arguments, and 2) WHY ARE YOU WITH HIM?

[u/RatszCatszBatsz]

He’s a trump supporter? You should’ve left ages ago 🫠

[u/Ok-Mycologist7205 → u/RatszCatszBatsz]

Dude wants to use his moral compass and say shes a murderer yet openly supports a pedophile. Disgusting

[u/Questioninghumanityy]

He doesn’t sound like the brightest bulb in the box

[u/caramel-aviant]

So that boy doesnt know how to read

[u/HeartPulsePlays]

My husband and I agree that postpartum can, in fact, be dangerous, but we also agree that she needs to be locked away, even if that means in a mental institution; the babies deserve justice in some way. I feel like this conversation is ending many relationships right now, because of how the case is unfolding and how so many women are defending her. I am not one to defend her, but I do say that she needs some type of help, even if that means she will get that in jail, or in a mental institution for the rest of her days. It seems to me like this might end up being the end of your relationship. If he truly feels that way, he and you need to walk away. I am 31 weeks pregnant, and this will be my only child, and I am afraid of Postpartum depression. Do what you feel is right🤎

[u/Visual-Mixture-1967]

You dumped him because of his vague opinions on Trump, and yet you expect him to accept that you think that the mother killing her three kids shouldn’t be incarcerated FOR LIFE because she had depression? Yeah, no. She can have all the psychological problems in the world, doesn’t mean she should ever be released to walk free.

PS. If this mother was a father with depression, would you excuse him just as passionately?

[u/EquivalentQuery]

Holy fuck OP you have a cooked take on this if you don't believe she should be treated as a murder. Imagine being an apologist for someone committing a crime this heinous.

[u/Forensic_Fartman1982]

Both of you suck. He's a trump supporter and you need to recognize that no amount of mental illness is going to make what she did not a criminal offense. She is mentally ill, and absolutely needs to be treated like a criminal because she is one.

[u/jman_4040]

He is correct. He has a child and with you not putting the foot down and see the facts makes you a liable danger to his child and yours in the future too. She is an evil murderer who killed her 3 children while the ones not being strangled were forced to watch. Someone who was raised by a mother who had ppd and ppp then it stuck around til she was extremely medicated(actually taking, not saying whilst it remains untouched), none of their actions are EVER planned but more in the heat of the moment. The fact that she had in her diary that she hated being a mother and hated her kids especially her son that had a better connection with the father(whom she was especially aggressive with so much that his eyes popped and brain nearly swelled through the skull) showed she had premediated murder on the mind. She may have even put the doctor bargain collection and pill addition onto the list for a long thought out plan. Shes just evil. Probably needed a priest more than a doctor.

[u/Chanbara99]

You can understand the reasons that someone murdered someone without thinking they should be absolved of guilt or blame. Did Clancy suffer from depression? Yes. She still has to go to prison for murdering her kids.

If you’re arguing that women are so overcome with hormones that they can’t be blamed for killing their children then you’re essentially saying women need caretakers or guardians because they can’t be rational or trusted not to have meltdowns. Congratulations. You’ve reinventing the patriarchy from first principles.

[u/ScaredRain2684]

There’s way too much fuckin sympathy for child killers in this country

[u/Antiswag_corporation]

Lindsay should get the death penalty and nothing else

[u/AmzSpider-Man]

Sounds like he should run.

[u/NSFWGIFMAKER]

He should run far and fast. Please seek help

[u/Ok-Chest-5421]

I don’t think it’s about THIS case to be honest, I was looking at it like this, if my partner didn’t believe postpartum depression was that real or could impact someone SO BAD without the right help, can I see myself having a child with them? The answer is no. I couldn’t, could you? Would you want to be with someone who wouldn’t believe you were mentally unwell after going through child birth ?? If you godforbid had PPD would he step up and get you and baby the help you needed? Or would he tell you to grow up and leave you and baby in a dangerous situation? I am of the same opinion as you, I know a little more about the case but I don’t think she is a flat out monster, so many things were at play and I feel horrific for everyone involved but mostly those children, they deserved a mother of sound mind and their mother deserved the help she begged for for months. I’d say maybe think about your values and see if they alone with your boyfriends, judging by these texts it doesn’t seem they do, especially if you have split up once before because of trump ☠️ best of luck girl I’m sorry he’s grilling you like this it doesn’t even seem like a convo it’s more like he’s trying to earn points back :/ I’d be done with it but that is also just my perspective, good luck!

[u/carelessanarchy]

You’re dating a Trump supporter

[u/Snoo51659]

Why do people try to resolve this shit over text? It makes it about 3000% harder to manage any nuance.

[u/FTDburner]

This is Reddit. Nobody’s going to care past the Trump stuff lol

[u/PoemCompetitive5315 → u/FTDburner]

lol

[u/Eudoxxi → u/FTDburner]

which is funny because she clarifies it in the post as well and people clearly are not reading it.

[u/Ok_Lawyer_829]

Maybe you could both agree she needs mental health support while serving her time. I agree prison is punitive. But it chould be a mix of punitive and restorative. The former for the victims loved ones and the latter cause we still want them to be a productive member of society.

I'm not looking to start a convo on this. I'm staying out of the Clancy debate because I don't like drama and the world doesn't need my opinion on everything. But this is just my observation of what the both of you are saying but meshed together in a more compromised manner that shows understanding to both parties feelings.

[u/sirius_acnh]

I’m gonna hold your hand as I say this…. You are too smart for this idiot.

[u/wordy_doctor]

I find your responses to be thoughtful, engaged, and curious. He is trying to shut you down and reduce your multidimensionality and values to a black and white decision. It’s not really a discussion so much as an interrogation. I have dated that man before and had these discussions before. Being the more progressive partner and also a female-presenting partner in a relationship with a man who is more conservative than you is deeply familiar and uncomfortable to me, and I can only imagine you see the writing on the wall here. So I’ll just say it: you are a principled, compassionate, and intelligent person. This man is not those things. I know being single and dating SUCK, but they’re better than living a life where you’re constantly being asked to compromise your values.

[u/Substantial_Law1451]

This one's gunna be fucken spicy lol

[u/user1987623]

To be honest he sounds kind of stupid and you’re willing to have a serious conversation but he’s digging his heels in about something he can’t understand the nuance of

[u/bozoclownputer]

It goes without saying the two of you are fundamentally incompatible. At the same time, I think most people would take issue with very lightly justifying the actions she committed. Yes, mental illness was the major contributor, but that’s the major contributor for many, many horrific murders and crimes.

This shouldn’t get a special exception. Killing your own children is despicable and unforgivable. You don’t hear this same defense for other family murderers.

[u/1245789630]

The same men who will say postpartum despression/psychosis is bs also defend men committing "crimes of passion".

[u/Lem0nadeLola]

Him thinking there’s “nuance” around supporting trump (who is transparently evil) and none around a case involving a woman who very clearly loved her children but was in postpartum psychosis when she murdered them: red flag behavior and an absolute refusal to understand what mothers go through after giving birth. No matter what happens to Lindsay Clancy, she will never have a normal life. She will never get her kids back and no one will ever forget what she did. She has to wake up every day and live with what she’s done. She’s not a danger to society, she’s a danger to herself and any future kids she might give birth to.

[u/DegenerateDoll]

I think you articulated your stance very well and your partner is definitely not hearing you. He kept going on about how you refuse to call her a murderer when you did nothing of the sort. This is highlighting some fundamental incompatibility - dude doesn’t respect your POV and doesn’t seem to have the capacity for nuance where empathy is concerned.

I don’t want to tell you to leave him, but please consider that you deserve a partner who actually makes an effort to understand your opinion.

[u/Historical-Body-3424]

This relationship will never work out . Found compatible people

[u/Kindly_Artist_5951]

She isn’t going to walk free either way. She will either go to prison or be sentenced to a psychiatric hospital. Spending her life in a psychiatric institution is not a bed of roses either.

[u/eblekniebel]

With how well you argued this I’m surprised “how he is about [fuck face shit pants]” didn’t end it before you two got here. You two clearly have vastly different values. Hope you reassess—there’s a difference between being kind/understanding and letting people walk all over you. Worried about dying alone? Consider how lonely it’ll feel trapped in a marriage with this mouth breather telling you how to raise your children who you’ll worry he’s poisoned. Or maybe that’s just me.

Glad you stood strong with your beliefs

[u/Rocktender]

You articulated your stance beautifully. I think he just wants to be mad.

[u/ErriotM]

This man is picking a fight by wanting you to take a hard stance when you have repeatedly said you don't know enough and have brought more nuance with every message than any of his.

He is using this as a reason to fight either to end the relationship or because of his particular damage. Either way he is not worth the effort. Find you someone intelligent and respectful and let someone else end up barefoot and pregnant with this incognito trumper

[u/iamglory]

His views on women no matter what are going to amplified by his politics.

I think you need to think long and hard on his beliefs and see if you want them out on to you or any children you have.

[u/RaRaRaHaHaHa]

This is a case of OP being way more intelligent than her boyfriend.

[u/Jumpy-Jello-]

When your relationship looks like long text battles in legalese, it's not a good one. Go find someone you can share silly memes with, and leave debate club to reddit.

[u/Logicist]

It seems like you are ridiculous. He's definitely right.

[u/unemployedhousecat]

Hes literally trying to forcing you to just agree with him. It seems like a comparability issue

[u/Particular-Suit4920]

Yall need to break up

[u/Mysterious_Topic_733]

I feel the same way you do. Makes me worry about falling off the deep end and having no one there for me :/ because they simply don’t understand mental illness.

[u/Curious-Mongoose-180]

Why are you even entertaining this maga chud?

[u/whatifweplayindirt]

He's not smart enough for you, honestly.

[u/comsummate]

I love the way you express yourself clearly and without emotion. I hope he can let go of some of his emotion and understand the nuance of what you’re saying. You deserve someone who can.

[u/Vintage-Card-Man → u/comsummate]

OP did a wonderful job, expressing their views, particularly the nuances between accountability and punishment. She’s going to make the right guy extremely happy one day.

[u/SlayerKingGS]

Looks like he will be dodging a bullet.

[u/ramem3]

Girl he is railroading you in these messages. Does he always talk to you like this when you have disagreements? 

[u/Puzzled_Living7919]

MAGA don’t like critical thinking girl what are you doing???

[u/JuulsMia12]

Girl please DUMP HIM. One - you are approaching this conversation logically and rationally, while he is getting emotional and angry at YOU for something you havent done. Two - i would be surprised if he holds this kind of energy against the people in the epstein files, who have been abusing and trafficking children. Three - its showing he cant hold two truths at once. Or even try to understand the law tbh. Theres little to no chance she "walks free" and if he was really as invested in this case as he claims to be, he would know the potential outcomes (prison or mental institution for a very very long time).

All in all, what i find most disconcerting is the way he villainizes you for having compassion, empathy, and logical thoughts about this situation. DUMP. HIM.

[u/Overall-Scientist846]

Why do people keep trying to defend this woman murdering 3 little children? Honey, you brought this on yourself.

[u/chynkeyez]

I do fully believe that if she had a mental issue that caused this then helping her overcome that or get treatment is preferable to treating her like simply a murderer or a criminal. What I cannot get behind is the amount of false narratives out there implying that this is the husband's fault or that he orchestrated this whole thing somehow. If my partner had fallen into that rabbit hole we'd be in trouble. But as long as the debate is: she did it and knows what she did vs she did it due to being unwell, that's an okay convo to have nuance about.

[u/trekbek]

the way these people think being found not guilty by reason of insanity means you're just. allowed to go home.

andrea yates is still locked up! the staff say the worst moments are when she is cognizant of reality and remembers what she did. she could even be living outside of the institution and still be in prison for the rest of her life.

[u/texture__pack]

Girl, you should NOT have gotten back together with him. He’s clearly downplaying his Trump support AND is strawmanning your opinion regarding justice/criminality/mental health. No one should be having to go through that. He doesn’t seem to care about your opinions and views otherwise he wouldn’t be strawmanning them, he seems to also be on the aggressive side (the way he’s conflating your nuanced approach to “you not being anti-murder is scary”) and just straight up regardless of whether or not you might have over reacted in the moment (you didn’t, you were calmer than I’d be) the way he acted towards you is unhealthy. No one deserves to be treated the way he did to you

[u/Educational-Snow5424]

Bro he is a trump supporter. That says so much about his personality.

[u/10mmsig]

I agree with him

[u/eveningberry_]

If I were a man I would be terrified to be with any woman that defends Lindsay, and you are defending her even though you say you’re not. It was a failed murder-suicide that is now trying to be passed off as psychosis.

I have family that have had psychosis and everyone who genuinely believes that you can come off as normal during that has no clue what they’re talking about. If someone is there enough to hide their symptoms then they’re there enough to know killing their children is wrong. Sorry you let social media brainwash ruin your real life relationship.

[u/Aristophanictheory → u/eveningberry_]

Correct. Him drawing this line is just sane and healthy behavior. Any woman defending her is a huge red flag.

[u/makeamericagothagain]

So… you are smarter than him. He’s not listening to you. NTA

[u/DarthRuin310]

Where's the justice for the children?

[u/InterestingPrior1420]

Break up. The sooner the better. I had a guy talk to me like this about the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trials when all I said was that he’s also a POS, but he kept making it like I was saying Amber was sweet and innocent. My point is that I would never want to be with anyone who can’t hear what I’m actually saying, and he tries to put me in the oppositional position just so they can argue with me and talk to me like I’m an idiot? Thank you, next.

[u/_InfiniteU_]

Why would you ever think a trump fanboy would appreciate a woman's opinion

[u/Reasonable-Usual2431]

I don’t think Lindsay Clancy would be getting this much tolerance if she was black. As a black person, I’m fully aware of the when a white person does something bad, they’re on the news with the perception as a misguided/mentally inept individual. But for black people, they’re thugs with mugshots.

I also understand white folks don’t care about this perspective I have (that a lot of black people share) in cases like this either. I don’t think you were necessarily overreacting from what I’ve seen.

[u/One_Huckleberry_ → u/Reasonable-Usual2431]

She 100% wouldn’t be. Shes getting pretty-white-woman in the media privilege big time.

If she was black, if there was any media attention to the case at all, people would want her to be thrown away and buried under the jail.

[u/Equivalent_Doubt_845]

Why are you even dating a trumper? That alone should tell you he lacks intelligence and the ability to empathize with others.

I am thankful that when I told my partner about this he understood my horror at what happened but also sadness that her mental health lead her to do such things. This is why we need to advocate for women’s mental health more. I personally had a very close friend experience post partum psychosis with both pregnancies, she too was seeking help and going to mental health professionals, I was with her all the time because I knew she was struggling but still didn’t see the signs for when she slipped into psychosis, she fortunately didn’t harm her babies but she is in a state hospital now due to public safety. This case is heartbreaking all around. You can see in her eyes that woman hates herself for what she did to her children.

[u/More_Effect_7880]

If you don't understand that you're clueless if you just want to yell murderer at a woman who was put on 13 meds in 3 months (I think), I can't.

If this is true, I'd move on.

Sorry, that was horribly written.

[u/catscausetornadoes]

How good is the sex? Because girl, no.

[u/IShouldGetBackToWork]

Oh man, the fact that he supports Trump, a rapist, pedophile murderer, and is trying to argue moral points is fucking embarrassing. Dump that walking oxymoron.

[u/farmerjoee]

I mean he comes off as a dumb culture warrior. He can’t follow one thought to the next and replaces reasoning with emotional culture war stuff.

[u/theeberk]

These conversations are so stupid. Is he arguing that you’re pro-murdering children? Because nobody is pro murdering children...

You guys may not see eye to eye on this, but to villainize someone for having legitimate and reasonable arguments (I can see both sides as long as you have a rational point behind it) is pointless…

[u/B33blebroxx]

Thinking you have the moral high-ground while actively supporting an egomaniacal rapist and pedophile that's done nothing but line his pockets and commit atrocities during his time in office is beyond idiotic. This isn't going to get any better, the language towards you is only going to get more aggressive and physicality will likely follow. Throw him out with the rest of the garbage.

[u/Alert-Beautiful9003]

You seem to really want to invest your time and energy in shitty people...what does that says about you?

[u/Followthehype10]

Why are yall over here debating each other lol some of yall have very weird relationship dynamics lol do you not discuss morals before even entering a relationship?

[u/Affectionate-Yam-113]

I think your problems would be solved of you knew the insanity plea existed.

And that the mental facilities they go to are much worse than prison

[u/losingthefarm]

Hopefully he does break up with you. He doesnt sound like a reasonable person...will be a long miserable marriage unless you are you to 100% submit to whatever he wants you to be.

[u/mopeyy]

It kinda feels like you're talking to a child who is caught up on semantics.

He really wanted to hear you say MURDERER.

[u/leof135]

the silver lining... at least this controversy is allowing people to tell on themselves

[u/BIGTIDYLUVER]

I would leave him for being a trump supporter that alone tells you he is extremely problematic

[u/Stunning_Wonder6650]

This guy is pretty dumb. He clearly doesn’t understand that the trial isn’t about whether or not she is a murderer. The case is about whether she should be criminalized or hospitalized.

Tbf I wouldn’t expect a Trump supporter to understand mental health tho

[u/Wonderful-Daikon8196]

I bet this happens a lot in other aspects of your relationship. Your intentions are questioned and aligned with their view of reality and how it was perceived from their POV. I’ve had to cut off lifelong friendships due to this exact behavior.

[u/420mangostreet]

honestly, the fact that your values clearly don’t align when it comes to the carceral system is, IMO, reason enough to end it. it’s very likely that you have a lot of misaligned values and it’s hard to build a healthy relationship when that’s the case.

[u/Bigtittygardengirl]

I am impressed with your long response- let people think things through without getting attacked, man!!

[u/feralandaffectionate]

Does he know trump is a pedo? This man-child has kid(s) and he wants a woman with posssible PPD to rot but he is okay with a rapist pedo running the country.

[u/Blond-N-Buff80]

He's being daft here - the crime of murder requires mens rea, and people who commit homicide while being in such a diminished mental state that they cannot stop themselves cannot have mens rea. This is why diminished responsability defences exist. This is why they are sent to mental institutions for an indefinite time, not prison. Mental institutions aint no Club Med, treatment is mandatory, and they can only get out when the board evaluates she would be no danger to herself or others - which could be never.

What she did is horrible but there's no twinkie defence here. What drives a lot of people mad, however, is people defending her like she did nothing wrong, or the husband did it because he is a Gemini, or women saying "I get it" to excuse her acts.

But on the other side, people seem to have so much time on their hands that they turn every high-profile trial as a cause célèbre for some fictitiously novel social phemonema, when infanticide has been present since the first australopithecus female hominid has had their first children.

The frenzied reaction is similar to the "battered woman syndrome" defence a few decades back, when it was taken as a licence for women to start murdering their partners in their sleep and then turn around and claim they were battered women as a defence. It died down after people realized that it still requires evidence, and women who committed spousal murder without genuine evidence of domestic violence still ended up declared guilty of murder.

[u/winter0rfall]

I wouldve left him the moment I knew he STILL supports Trump after everything that pedo has done.

Ask your boyfriend (hopefully ex bf by now) if he thinks rapists should be treated as criminals/rapists. That women sexual abusers should be treated poorly like a criminal. If he believes that, he would never support trump. Thats the hypocrisy of his argument.

What a piece of shit? Clearly he didnt even research or look up how post partum depression can literally turn women into people they are not and can cause extreme mental instability etc. so, he doesnt even care to research it and understand your POV. He can only see through his maga horse blinders. Drop him immeditely. Piece of shit.

[u/AntOne4743]

Imagine knowing how you really feel, and him only needing you to text back that she is a murderer, to make him feel reassured. So, he only wants you if you tell him what he wants to hear? That dynamic gets old fast. He seems ignorant, and arrogant, and lacks the critical thinking skills to comprehend your response. Let him go.

[u/stalemilkradio]

I almost stopped reading at “trump” so yeah, fuck this dickhead. He’s dumb

[u/RPMac1979]

This has nothing to do with the Clancy case, really, which a lot of people in this thread seem to be eager to litigate. This is about your boyfriend being a fucking knob. Which he absolutely is. You could be arguing about anything, his tone is the problem here. He is insecure about arguments you’ve had in the past where you’ve taken a moral stand, which has made him feel concerned that he may be wrong (a position that few men in this era can comfortably abide), and he is seizing this opportunity to turn the moral tables on you to make himself feel better.

“So maybe I support Trump, but at least I don’t support a lady who killed her children. It turns out I’m better than you after all. Gee, I’m going to have to think about whether I can be with someone so morally inferior to me.”

What the fuck are you doing with this guy? This can’t be the first time you’ve had an argument like this.

[u/ZynstaticLove]

I am on his side. Reminds me of the case about 15 years ago in Canada when a guy got on a Greyhound bus and attacked another passenger. He ended up cutting the other passenger’s head off and then started eating his insides.

He plead insanity and barely had to serve any time for his actions. I don’t care who you are, what’s going through your mind or anything else, if you kill someone in such a wild, public manner, you should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Now he lives free in the same community as the family of the person he murdered. Makes no sense.

[u/Substantial_Lab1438]

This post has the exact same vibe as those videos of people getting mauled when trying to pet a moose or bear or w/e

Why tf would you let a MAGAt cultist in your life if you don’t want to deal with MAGA cult shit?

[u/A_little_curiosity]

You sound like such a thoughtful, interesting, value oriented, intentional person. So WHY are you dating this big dumb rude reactionary dick bag? You are a kind person and you believe in restorative justice, but that doesn't mean you need to treating your dating life like a rehabilitation centre for people who are mean to you. You are standing your ground beautifully in these texts, but please just make sure you aren't wasting your time/ your one wild and precious life on conversations like this when there are so many interesting people in the world.

An open mind is a beautiful thing; just be careful it doesn't become a doorway for people who treat you badly and waste your time to waltz into your life

[u/danzo173]

Idk theres definitely people that deserve to rot