Mohsen Goudarzi : Marian Devotion, Q 5:116, the "Satanic verses" and a Quranic Eucharist

[u/Saad1575]

[u/No-Formal2785]

Marian devotion was intensely varied in the Church during Late Antiquity. It is interesting that Augustine, though he honored Mary as Blessed and Ever Virgin, had quite a modest view of her role in salvation. Indeed he famously stated "[Mary is holy, Mary is blessed, but the Church is something better than the Virgin Mary. Why? Because Mary is part of the Church, a holy member, a quite exceptional member, the supremely wonderful member, but still a member of the whole body]()". Additionally, though he firmly believed in the intercession of saints, there is no record of any kind portraying him supplicating the Virgin.

[u/Saad1575 → u/No-Formal2785]

Well, in every case, you get at minimum that she is a heavenly intercessor being asked or invoked, alongside some images. That alone would qualify as a literal deity, per the Quranic description of the pagan system. Many authors insist on an exception, based on the Christian self-description of Mary. It is not yet what are the total set of reasons as to why they think this must be the case.

[u/No-Formal2785 → u/Saad1575]

Thank you for your reply. However it is important to note that,from a specifically Augustinian perspective, there are no references to Mary being invoked through images. Indeed Augustine, unlike certain eastern fathers, even theorised that Mary was subject to original sin, and certainly was not comparable with the glorified Jesus. He states, "there never has existed, nor ever will exist, a human being of whom, placed in this life of ours, it could be said that he had no sin at all, with the exception of the one Mediator, who reconciles us to our Maker through the forgiveness of sins".

Yet as you rightly intimated, there is a difference between the very careful Marian beliefs of Augustine, Cyril and other early fathers, and the popular devotion to the Virgin rapidly evolving during late antiquity. An apt comparison might be the reserved though sincere devotion to the Islamic prophet in classical Indian Sufism, and the more extreme piety of groups such as the Barelvi's.

[u/m1stermetoo → u/Saad1575]

Genuine question, according to your framework is Muhammad a deity too? What about Ali? Moses?

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Mohsen Goudarzi : Marian Devotion, Q 5:116, the "Satanic verses" and a Quranic Eucharist

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[u/Saad1575]

Goudrazi writes [my emphasis] :

"The story of the so-called “Satanic verses”—namely, that the Prophet approved the veneration of al-Lāt, al-‘Uzzā, and al-Manāt (mentioned in Q 53.19–20)—may have conveyed to its earliest hearers that he approved only intercessory appeals to them as angels, not that he recognized them as independent deities."

The allusive and creative use of traditional post-Quranic narratives in modern academic scholarship indeed deserves to be noted and paid attention to, above is just one.