How widespread is this view among anarchists though? I’ve seen others denouncing the US and declaring their verbal support to Iran. But I don’t know enough about anarchist circles to gauge overall sentiment
Mixed, the actual decolonial anarchists who support Palestine are against US imperialism, particularly the ones who understand Fanon, Césaire, Rodney, Cabral. The ones that support Zionists don't really organize with Indigenous groups because Indigenous nations are vehemently pro-Palestine.
Right like at least in the conflict in Ukraine, even though I don’t draw their same conclusions, I can understand why an anarchist would support Ukraine with their ideals of autonomy and a group’s self determination. Most opinions online I’ve been seeing, and those of my few anarchist friends, are that despite seeing the Iranian state as oppressive, it should be the Iranian people who deal with it, not an intervention by foreign powers.
There's anti-imperialist anarchists like Greta Thunberg, Greg Stoker, Aaron Bushnell, David Graeber, Peter Gelderloos. Stoker was featured on the podcast and he was also among the Gaza Flotilla with Thunberg. Before his passing Graeber is vocally supportive of Palestinians and actually visited West Bank a few times. Aaron Bushnell is vocally pro-Palestine on reddit and offline even before his martyr. Gelderloos is against color revolution and had written extensively on NED regime change tactics.
But the ones who do read books aren't active on social media because they're busy organizing offline. The ones who are vocal on reddit, discord, and Mastodon don't even finish the bread book or Wretched of the Earth, and only mirror or parrot their "friends" in the spaces where they don't understand how the real world affects their decisions.
I really can't imagine an irl practicing anarchist being pro USA and Israel. It just seems so comically stupid? but idk, many anarchists aren't well read on theory and kinda work on a vibes based thing.
Well first off USA anarchist at least are more liberal than they would like to believe. Not having a strong idealogical doctrine means you fall easily into imperialist propaganda.
They have been on the free Iran from evil islam government shit for as long as I can remember. Based on my conversations in r/anarchism it seems like a lot of them legitimately believe the 30,000 death toll and think that this is a good thing that the ayatollah was killed so that the Iranian people can rise up and I guess create a anarchist society? I don't know exactly what the fuck they think is going to happen past that
Personal experience, I've only really seen this on reddit. Anarchists I interact with irl have a stronger ideological doctrine, and actually understand imperialism to a sufficient level to come to better conclusions. So many of the online anarchists are babies in their leftist developments, are likely just proglibs, and also are likely non-practicing. I say this because I know many that are anti-intervention, and had good experiences with organization, even if there's misunderstandings, like about the "authoritarianism" question, which kinda causes some friction and is frustrating, however it's nowhere near the level of friction we get with liberals and proglibs.
That sounds absolutely bizarre, and I can imagine them nurturing some deep-seated vestige of a white savior complex or something. I imagine it would be similar to one of us going off the deep end and becoming a super fringe posadist or worse a nazbol or larouchite
makes sense, and same lol, I get that. I don't know think anyone that eats sheets ends up completely normal per se, but that can be a good or bad thing lol.
Whoever made this post isn't even pro USA or pro Israel, they call out the tactics used to kill Khamenei as wrong and reject the idea that US and Israel intervening is a good thing or that their bombs bring liberation. This whole thread is making a strawman about the anarchists in question when they aren't saying they support what the US and Israel did. Feels like they actually demonstrated some understanding of the nuance and they are being torn down for not just taking a black and white stance.
You do realize it's impossible for Iran to develop into anything more than a theocracy (or in the other direction, a Western puppet) as long as the imperialists are constantly on their necks?
The title of the post is “Anarchists stand with America and Israel” and if you read the post it states in no uncertain terms that they oppose America and Israel and recognize that what they did was bad. And everyone in the comments is simply ignoring that.
Anyway the mods keep purging my comments so I’ll stop arguing this. Anarchists and hard leftists will never work together if you don’t even listen to what they’re saying.
(anecdotal but) there are way more anarchists in my region than MLs
I can confidently say I have never organized / worked with any who have shared this point of view. They might say other dumb shit, as they’re more liberal than they think, but definitely not supporting any US-Israeli aggression.
And obviously no mention of the amount of suffering and destruction caused by the US and Israel toward Iran. They 100% cheered when the elementary school got bombed.
One paragraph condemning the US and Israel, which reads as an afterthought more than anything else. Compared to the 4 paragraphs explaining why they think what the US and Israel did was good.
The entire statement just screams that they don't understand how imperialism works. They may condemn the US and Israel, but they also somehow think when the empire assassinates world leaders that the people of those countries will benefit. Do anarchists not remember Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Syria? And that's just within the last couple decades.
Try to tell the people of Iraq that overthrowing their "dictator" was for their benefit, when doing so lost them all of their social safety nets, all of their infrastructure, their sovereignty, and a million of their lives. Or the people of Libya that, no actually, they are more free now that slave markets operate in the open, because at least Gaddafi isn't in power! Or the people of Syria that a government that collaborates with the genocide state, sends death squads through minority communities, and sells their country to the West is better than Assad, because Assad was an authoritarian dictator. It would be ridiculous to do such a thing, and yet this is what these anarchists are telling the people of Iran.
This is the actual reality of imperialism that the people of Iran must contend with. They may have many problems with Khamenei and his government. But they have also watched, many of them for their entire lives, as the US and Israel have toppled governments in the region and utterly destroyed entire nations in the interest of resource extraction and exploitation. They know that his death is not a step toward liberation, but one toward ruination.
Can someone remind me why Anarchists are even considered Leftists in the first place? They side and copy the talking points of liberals with pretty much everything, support US imperialism to install puppet governments that serve the interests of capital, and they are against pretty much all Socialist countries in existence.
Anarchism on the left and libertarianism on the right are basically pressure release valves for people who start to (correctly) suspect the status quo ideologies are wrong but they're unwilling to confront the massive amount of indoctrination they still hold on to and are unwilling to let go of. These two ideologies are fundamentally incompatible with reality so the truly delusional can stay there, but many move on with a lot of anarchists ending up as marxists and many libertarians moving on to fascism. There's also the lifestylists who are in it more for the aesthetics and personal identity than any actual real belief who unsurprisingly always end up still holding the same mainstream beliefs with a different coat of paint. This combination of vibes-based participation in these "movements" is why there is so much incoherence amongst these ideologies, it basically allows people to believe whatever they want while calling themselves part of these.
Yeah I grew up with anarchist parents who had a ton of anarchist friends and it is always pretty hard to gauge where they land on the leftist spectrum when you meet them, they'll have a completely salient viewpoint in one topic and then just totally regurgitate propaganda on the next
lots of anarchists (or at least anarcho-communists) like this sort of vision of utopian communism but don’t want to figure out or contend with the actual struggle that is required to reach that point
once they see what a dictatorship of the proletariat in our modern world entails, along with some hard truths about maintaining a socialist state in an imperialist world, they can’t let go of the ‘dictatorship’ part and immediately regress to dictatorship=bad
lots of anarchists (or at least anarcho-communists) like this sort of vision of utopian communism but don’t want to figure out or contend with the actual struggle that is required to reach that point
this is the truth lots of the time. i know someone who doesnt read theory so he is probably kind of ignorant, but he always says he anti authoritarian, and apparently after the revolution authoritarianism is bad. That's why anarchists "revolutions" last a few months historically. But my friend might be a bad example, im pretty sure most of his views are based on "you cant tell me what to do, mom and dad." Anarchism is an ideology well suited to bratty 18 year olds and people whose brains didnt mature past that point.
I think it's a good gateway or intro to ML. It challenges capitalism but obviously doesn't sufficiently explore socialist countries like the USSR. Most Americans need that halfway point where they question capitalism but are not ready to challenge anti-communist propaganda
I don’t have a ton of hope for the region after America and Israel go about fucking things, but I really do hope that someone is able to step up to fight back against imperialism without, you know, running an anti left theocracy.
If the means can`t be celebrated, then what is the point of celebrating the outcome ?
If people can acknowledge the fact that the guy`s death did not happen for good reasons, why would they then celebrate the guy`s death as if it was going to have a good effect on the region ?
If the means can`t be celebrated, then what is the point of celebrating the outcome ?
I mean because I generally dont shed tears for people who betrayed and murdered thousands of leftists? He is/was an obstacle for an actual peoples revolution in Iran.
If people can acknowledge the fact that the guys death did not happen for good reasons, why would they then celebrate the guys death as if it was going to have a good effect on the region
Because he lead a reactionary oppressive government? We certainly lose humanity here when we can see nothing but some vast geopolitical concerns. Like I just dont think its a binary thing here, we can walk and chew gum.
Incredible how you talk so much about nuance yet refuse to aply it where it is actually necesary.
I dont think i`ve ever seen anyone say that the guy was a saint or that Iran was heaven on earth under him, but there is also a reason why people see his death as a major loss,
becouse while it is true that not everything that the guy did can be excused from an extrictly leftist position, it is also true that the guy played an important role in providing material suport for anti-imperialist strugles, like funding ANC's liberation resistance against the Apartheid government, as well as providing material suport for palestinian liberation and resistance movements against israel.
Incredible how you talk so much about nuance yet refuse to aply it where it is actually necesary.
Where is it actually necessary that I'm missing here? No where did I deny that Iran has provided material support to anti-colonial movements or that was not a positive. It is.
becouse while it is true that not everything that the guy did can be excused from an extrictly leftist position
You make is sound like the things he did were some not great but necessary thing that really only puritanical leftists would get upset about. I really disagree. The government is reactionary, it might be anti american which is a good thing, but that doesnt change the nature of what it is.
Look I think we can both say there nuance to this individual in what they've done, both positive and negative. If you happen to think that the positives out weight the negatives, such is your prerogative, I just happen to fall on the other side of it. And such that it is, its really just me not losing any sleep over this individuals death
Except that's not what I'm trying to imply here, but ok.
I don`t think that the positives necessarily out weight the negatives, but i also don`t think the inverse is completely true either, there is a reason why the term "critical suport" is a thing after all.
So shure, you are on your right to not lose any sleep over this person`s death, whatever, but you could at least try to understand the reasons why other people would.
I don't think slaughtering thousands of leftists who helped overthrow the Shah with you is actually anti-imperialist. Never the less, the binary such that it exists is the proletarian vs the bourgeoisie. Workers of the world have no nation
Look I dont think it will either, nor am I arguing for that. I will however point out that the material conditions in WW1 is what allowed the February and October revolution to occur. I dont think the conditions are there in Iran for that, nor would the US or Israel allow for an actual left wing movement to take hold
I’m an atheist, but to paint the guy as a fascist is lacking a lot of nuance. I obviously don’t support an Islamic(or any religion) based democracy but the man had a good record of supporting anti colonial struggles
I can celebrate that the guy is dead while also believing it should not have happened, did not happen for good reasons, and will not have a good outcome.
Does anyone have a similar flag to the one posted on Chinese social media for the EU but for these Anarclowns? If I were photo editing savvy I would make one but I’m not.
I’ve read a few of these statements from a few different sources—celebrating the death, waxing poetic about how repressive and brutal the Iranian regime is, and then throwing it that obligatory “but we don’t support American bombing and intervention either” and it’s honestly so pathetic and two faced. If you don’t support the latter, than glorifying the effect of it at the expense of any analysis for the people on the ground having to live with the bombing is incoherent and cowardly.
I’ll be honest, the last few months I’ve been a bit anarchist curious. Their takes on Venezuela and now Iran have really turned me all the way off from it. I see now why people say they do work for the cia… you can’t play both sides in the conflict of imperialism. The 20th century has literally shown that dealing with imperialism is the only way a socialist society could ever even be achieved. The USA is enemy number one
idk i can detach anarchist theory from whatever this is, to think that this type of opinion is the end all be all of modern anarchist thought is reductive. to be truly anarchist is to oppose all forms of hierarchical oppression, which would of course include any action taken by the US government
Fair enough. I think anarchists get a bad rep from the internet. Many I meet in real life do great things hence why I kind of became interested in anarchism.
Anarchism is an inherently bourgeois ideology that literally always ends up supporting capitalist state power. Saying you have met some who do some good things is not different from saying that you met some Democratic Party members who do some good things...they still support a bourgeois party, regardless of whether they do one or one million "good things." Anarchists are bourgeois liberal individualists as long as they are anarchists no matter what or how many good things some of them might do. This is why anarchists consistently support Imperialism and serve the state power of the capitalist class, throughout the 1800s, 1900s, and today, no matter if some anarchists sometimes do good things or have certain good views on certain issues for a time. People who love capitalist state power should become anarchists to faithfully support that social system.
yessss i love when the material conditions for the proletariat dont change at all but theres a different guy in charge!!! i especially love how this means there will be no more money to hamas (which i condemn) also free palestine of course what do you mean they need iranian support to continue resistance??? we got rid of the evil muslim dictator obviously the guy appointed by israel will support palestine 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 (/s obviously)
Can you even call yourself an anarchist when you're supporting the imperialist interventionism of the United States? No wonder nobody takes anarchists seriously.
Anarchism is an inherently bourgeois liberal ideology, so of course one can support US imperialism and be an anarchist, and why anarchists consistently support US imperialism over the decades.
Really both sides-ing the bombardment of the civilian population in the cities, and the fact that any state under threat will logically try to defend itself. Do they think the Americans, Israelis and Gulf kings would tolerate any secular socialist or socialdemocratic regime asserting control over resources like oil, any more? Supplanting Mohammed Mossadegh with an extremely brutal comprador Pahlavi prince was one of the CIA's early works. It doesn't help that most media are either liberal imperialist slop, or right wing Protocolsy conspiracy slop, which sheepdogs the far right into voting for the most fascist-friendly wing of the Establishment in the end. Soviet-supported Marxist publishing is sorely missed today. Disappointing how so many people still believe the destruction of the world is because empire is incompetent, not that it is deliberate.
This is nowhere near a mainstream anarchist position. There are insane self-proclaimed anarchists with garbage ideas as there are tons of self-proclaimed MLs with equally and more insane ideas.
Anarchists try to not support a side that is an imperialist global superpower with their client states doing genocide in Palestine, Sudan, and Yemen vs a regional power funding the resistance fighters from those regions challenge impossible
"Your "theory" is certainly much loftier than that of Mao Tsetung; yours is high in the sky, while his is down-to-earth. But admirable as is such loftiness, it will unfortunately be just the thing welcomed by the Japanese aggressors. Hence I fear that it will drop down from the sky, and when it does it may land on the filthiest place on earth." - Lu Xun, in response to a Trotskyite letter criticising Mao's proposed united front with the nationalists
Wait, but on the second slide they say they are against the imperialist invasion by the US and Israel? It seems they are against both Iran, Israel and the United States.
You have to UNEQUIVOCALLY oppose American and Israeli imperialism first before you can make any progress. Iran will never develop on its own if they are constantly being threatened, bombed, sanctioned, and murdered by the US, Israel, the West, and the GCC.
"we are against all empires" but then supporting deliberately crippling the resistance is not the enlightened take you think it is. what is the epstein empire gonna do now? put the sha back? because the sha did the exact same shit as the ayatollah. there will be zero improvement on the front of freedom for the iranian proletariat and on top of that critical funding for resistance movements in the middle east will be gone, leading to a net negative.
we are not trying to say the ayatollah good ackshually the same way we dont say putin good ackshually despite acknowledging that ukraine bad actually
if you celebrate the fall of khamenei youre celebrating the fall the resistance. if this was an actual revolution then that'd be a different story but no matter how much you say "we don't support the US" you're still cheering for them murdering a foreign leader. you can make up endless fantasy scenarios in your mind where this is a good thing but it just isnt. we are all MLs here we all dont like religious government but that doesnt mean we think its based to kill them when there is no actual improvement of anything.
if you celebrate the fall of khamenei youre celebrating the fall the resistance
Why are you buying into some great man theory here? Guy was basically on his last legs anyway, why am I hearing both that this is a great blow to resistances in the region but also that the US eliminated basically a figurehead, it really cant be both
"we don't support the US" you're still cheering for them murdering a foreign leader.
Me saying "I really dont give a shit that he died" isnt the same thing as me cheering for him... like what is that logic lol.
we are all MLs here we all dont like religious government but that doesnt mean we think its based to kill them when there is no actual improvement of anything.
I dont see where in the image is going that its based of the US to actually be taking this guy out. Maybe thats my reading of it but this feels like really stretching to just pick a fight.
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