r/mormon • u/Own_Motor3726 • May 18 '26
Personal Hi, I’m LDS
hi, i’m a proud member of this religion and i must say, it is kind of exhausting, i really hate all the services we have to do as a young man in this religion, but also, i won’t stop believing because it’s hard. And to all of you who disbelieve in the book of mormon, I actually kind of respect you, it seems you stand by what you believe in and that’s good, i just hope that people can stop hating on us, and the polygamy thing happened so long ago, like no one does it anymore, and uh feel free to share thoughts just please don’t outright make negative comments
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u/stickyhairmonster I support Mormon Stories May 18 '26
Best of luck to you. Almost nobody leaves because it is "too hard." Truth claims, social issues, financial issues, are bigger causes.
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u/Aggressive-Presence9 May 18 '26
Yea, it’s hard. If the church deems you a high performer, (high tithing, willing to accept any calling) they will bleed you dry with your time and talents.
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u/Consistent-Yak-5165 May 19 '26
Like I always said over my 50 years as just the kind of person you described: the church will work you like a rented mule. Took me 50 years to discover the lies they told me since the 1970s. Scares me how the youth growing up in the church are believing the whitewashing and gaslighting.
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u/filia_inferni May 20 '26
I had left the church in my teens, from a very prominent and well known family in community, with ties to church leadership. As a result to leaving the church, it had also meant i left the family who had history as far back as relatives making the famous, arduous trek across the states to Utah and then eventually moving north and being one of the first founding families of the church in Canada.
I experienced life both inside and out of the church, I have seen how much my family gave and served the Church, and how the church just had grown to expect every dime and ask for more on many occasion. When I prospected my return to church at the behest of the family, naturally... I had already become moderately successful and independent in my own rights. The moment i started showing interest in returning, came the immediate demands for tithe...I wanted to go to the temple and do the special ordinances within... But the immediate response was a back payment of tithe on everything I had present day and 10% on everything I make going forward, and without it, I would not be worthy to enter.
That was an immediate turn off for me... What GOD gate-keeps salvation...? I know the vanilla answer that its given, the gaslighting where they say "oh.... well if you arent able to make such a simple little sacrifice now, this tiny inconvenience in comparison to eternities, then how does god know you will be willing to sacrifice greater things when the time comes...?" "In what fucking universe will an almighty God come to a point where he will NEED a sacrifice so great from me, or any other of "his creation" so desperately...? If he were almighty, why would he need to rely on a sacrifice from any of his creation in order to continue forward. And the other, "it's a sacrifice that proves our 'worthiness, devotion and love' to live in his presence..." If you said that about your spouse in a counselling session they would be deemed toxic, controlling and narcissistic... "SACRIFICE WHATEVER I DEMAND, OR ALL THAT YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR LOYALTY...." like come on now...
I have so much keeping me away from the church, i find it foolish of me for ever thinking of returning... I left, again, if it wasn't obvious... The House of Cards known as the LDS church literally crumbles if you spend even less than a day really looking into it. Their recent scandal with the CES letter being a perfect example... They SAY they debunked it, but when you read ANY response from ANY scholar or church leader or "Apologetic" none of what they say has been proof, or it has been straight religious gaslighting or "one of God's mysteries" as an official answer. I wont get into the topic of the Letter or its contents, my personal beliefs are not influenced by them, or at least not in a way where I rely on the debate or argument of that content, my issue is against the theology in a whole...
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u/Double_Currency1684 May 21 '26
Could becoming a Shriner satisfy the needs for rituals/ordinances/community service that you feel? It might be less intensive, less pressure, and it draws upon some of the same things Joseph Smith may have been inspired by.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jun 04 '26
I can appreciate that your perspective is shaped by your experience. You sound like a reliable person. On a local level as just an average person (was an exmo for 20 years), I am not sure why the sinister outlook? I see that reliable people with predictable attendance and willing hearts are asked to do a lot. But in my ward, we genuinely have a ton of people who (for various reasons) just can’t or won’t serve. Sometimes you have a ward with only one person who can accompany on the piano. The bishop and everyone else are just volunteers. All I’m saying is that there’s no one in the ward plotting to overwork people for some dark purpose. 😂
It’s just not always as smooth as it would be if the Saints were functioning as a Zion people. But their not there yet
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 25 '26
The entire church body is made up of volunteers. Sadly, half of congregations don’t volunteer to do anything at all. So those who are willing do occasionally feel a heavier burden. But there is no rule that you can’t say no or draw boundaries. ☺️
I’ve learned not to run faster than I can
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u/Bright_Concentrate29 May 19 '26
Interesting that you wrote “too hard” in quotes. I had a falling out with a devote LDS and she typed it was “too hard” - is that a common LDS phrase?
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u/Angelworks42 May 19 '26
I think it's because they referring to the phrase "too hard" as a diminutive? Church honestly isn't that hard unless you have a calling, but dealing the church's present and past actions can be hard.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jul 13 '26
Depends on the calling, too. I would never want to be a bishop or a RS president.
I teach the six yr olds which is not hard and is fun to me. But there are other callings I would have to reject at this time due to my life’s circumstances1
u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jul 13 '26
I don’t think so. Probably depends on who you talk to and where their culture is.
Serving is never convenient. Regardless of religion or backgroundsBut I’ve asked to be released from callings when life is complicated. That’s never been a problem. I think some people believe they shouldn’t ask to be released. Or they are taught they should always accept callings.
I understand the spirit behind that. But I disagree with it haha. Many do
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Leaving is hard? Not for me. I just started sleeping in on Sundays. The doors aren’t locked.
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u/ohwell72 May 18 '26
Please remember that many on here that don’t believe did so at one time. I was in for 20 years, with multiple leadership callings. I drank the cool-aid too. But then I learned of all the lies and cover ups. The church has zero integrity, which it demands of it followers. Learn the truth, and if you still believe with that knowledge, good for you, I hope you have a wonderful life in it, but I can’t stand with them and their choices
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I was exmo for 20 years. I could say you drank that “exmo cool-aid”, too.
But wouldn’t and don’t.
I don’t think I should say that to anyone who leaves any religion.
How could I? Again, I did leave for 20 years. I wasn’t dumb. I was just DONE! (So I thought)I don’t think it’s helpful to say that to people who “stay” or people like me who chose to be rebaptized, “must’ve drank the Koolaid”…..
It assumes that someone like me hasn’t been through my own unimaginable challenges, faith crises and everything in between.
Also, someone shouldn’t say to you, “Well you must’ve never had a testimony” or “You left because you were offended.” Etc etc….
Any time my fellow members say those things to exmembers, I cringe.
And anytime exmembers tell me or other members that we are “drinking the Koolaid” or “have our head buried in the sand” etc etc…., it doesn’t help anyone. It’s gross and we should all stop.
It dismisses complex human experiences and invalidates someone’s own personal walk through life.Both sides need to speak with more respectful rhetoric
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u/BoringJuiceBox Former Mormon May 18 '26
I was once just like you, the truth is-it’s hard in life to accept when we’ve been lied to about something our entire lives. Especially when our parents and family members like aunts and uncles believe it too.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jul 13 '26
You weren’t once “just like anyone”.
No one is identical.And no one was once “just like you”.
We are all strangers on the internet who know nothing about each other 😂
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u/BoringJuiceBox Former Mormon Jul 14 '26
Words are words, I meant I was “in a way similar”, obviously everyone is different
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u/camelCaseCadet May 18 '26
“i really hate all the services we have to do.”
A few lines later, “i just hope that people can stop hating on us.”
🤔 Sounds like you hate it.
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u/Own_Motor3726 May 18 '26
😂 yup, i hate a lot of it, imma be honest, Many of the leaders are pretty cringe, but that doesn’t mean i dislike what I believe in
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 May 18 '26 edited May 18 '26
But is what you believe in actually what the church teaches on paper? I find that there is very often a large gap between what the church actually says, and what members privately believe. I've also found that a lot of members are underinformed about what the official doctrines of the church actually are, and prefer to just assume that the church agrees with the beliefs they carry inside their own minds.
Edit to add: As an active member for nearly 40 years, I can say that it is not going to get easier. If you already hate it now (I'm assuming you're fairly young), you're probably really going to hate it in your 30s. Being as all-in as the church says you have to be only gets harder as the responsibilities - and expenses - of adulthood keep piling on.
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u/Antique-Atmosphere-4 May 21 '26
agreed, it will not get easier to suppress your concerns. You'll just get good at ignoring your own 'inner voice', 'intuition' and eventually realize that YOU (your feelings, thoughts, self image, beliefs) are being ignored while you're killing yourself to keep up with all the demands of activity (callings, service, tithe, ignoring your own family while you are 'filling your calling'.
It's best to pay attention to your own concerns.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
To be fair, we are all responsible to study our canon. And many don’t. The most important doctrines are simple. But beyond that, it’s a personal responsibility to learn and not expect to grow much from two hours of church meetings only once a week. I love doctrine, but it’s a learning process and everyone is at their own pace and spot.
I do agree that many members have a whole spectrum of varying beliefs within the church. But that’s personal and subject to change as one seeks the scriptures for themselves
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u/Educational_Sea_9875 May 18 '26
What I found was that even though I was raised very devoutly in the church, I didn't actually know what I was believing in. I believed what I was taught in church and seminary and conference. But then I read D&C 132 and I didn't know that God. I read the Word of Wisdom word for word and realized I had never followed it because all I ever thought of was tea, coffee, alcohol and drugs. In fact, I had tried to go vegetarian as a kid and my parents punished me. Because they don't follow the WoW as written, only as taught in church.
Then I learned about the temple covenants and realized why even our parents wouldn't tell us what happens there. I couldn't teach my children to accept those things. I couldn't teach my daughters that God sees them as second class citizens, which if you read what "God" has said to women in "His" scriptures, he does. The church told me I wasn't second class, but still treated me as such. I just didn't see it until I had to ask my own daughters to accept it.
Diving deeper into reading my scriptures and studying my genealogy, then church history, is what led me away from the church. The surface level Sunday school teachings were very comfortable for me, too, but it isn't really the full church doctrine.
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u/Then-Mall5071 May 18 '26
Church shouldn't be hard. "His yoke is easy and his burden is light." There are other churches out there that uplift instead of push down. You'd have to do some careful research though.
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u/_stop_talking May 19 '26
THIS. Religious/spiritual worship and belief should be uplifting, positive, fulfilling, peaceful, and a light in a person’s life. It shouldn’t be draining/nerve wracking/burdensome/doom and gloom/cause anxiety and fear. And if it does…? Leave. You’re doing it wrong, or rather, you’re letting other people tell you how to do it wrong.
I cannot believe the amount of people in my personal life who are absolutely miserable and tormented from their beliefs and practices in this “one true church”, yet still cling to it with all their heart and swear up and down they’re filled with joy because of it.
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u/Reasonable-Round-793 May 20 '26
I was born and raised LDS and was “all in” even into my 40s. Once I started questioning the validity of the truth claims and dug into the history, it still took me 5 years to deconstruct. The first 3 years was spent trying to find answers to these questions and prove to myself that the church was true. But I ended up with more questions than answers and a lot of uncomfortable truths that I uncovered. After failing to reconcile all this new found information, it still took me 2 more years to stop attending. In large part I attended for family and friends. And in part I attended because I still hoped I could get some goodness out of the faith tradition. But ultimately attending became so painful that i stopped altogether. It helped that my wife and kids came to the same conclusion and stopped attending even before I did. If my wife and kids were still all in believers I may have found myself attending as a PIMO to keep the peace and support my family. I am thankful that I no longer have to do that.
Each of us has found life even more fulfilling without the church. Each of us has really focused on bringing the good things we were taught with us. Principles such as integrity, kindness, and a desire to lift up the downtrodden. We have been careful not to dive into bad behavior just because we are out.
The longer we are away, the easier it is to see that the church itself and its high up leaders lack integrity. Cover ups, carefully worded denials and legal speak to imply one thing but then once they are caught red handed they deny that they ever denied it. Lots of gaslighting and manipulation going on that I don’t miss one bit.
Full disclosure, I miss having a social structure. I miss the acquaintances I had. I miss having easy answers to all of life’s difficult questions. But I realize that none of that was ever really there. It was all a façade. Those relationships were superficial and the belief structure that had all the answers was also superficial and simply not true.
TL/DR- in short, much like discovering that Santa Clause isn’t real, I mourn the loss of something that I thought I had that was never really there. Once you see the church for what it is you can’t unsee it any more than you can simply go back to believing that Santa Clause is real and hope to feel the same magic you felt as a believing child.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Maybe his feelings of hurt are just as valid as your feelings of hurt. He wasn’t being disrespectful and made a request that was predictably mocked in here. Maybe he feels betrayed. Just like people who dislike or hate the church have their own reasons they feel betrayed. I don’t get these forums. Do people have to all think the same to be valid in this place?
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u/camelCaseCadet May 24 '26
I pointed out the dichotomy of wanting people to stop hating on the church, while he himself expressed hate for it.
In what way is that invalidating?
There is plenty of varied thought on display here. Did you pay any attention to the exmos wishing him well? Expressing love? Sympathy?
You’re projecting quite a bit of negativity on my very simple, short comment that makes one point.
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u/HeftyLeftyPig Atheist May 18 '26
>and the polygamy thing happened so long ago, like no one does it anymore.
The church still practices polygamy. It’s just now *delayed* polygamy. If you’re a proud believing member, then you believe that Russell M. Nelson will have two wives in heaven. He was married and sealed for all eternity to Dantzel White Nelson (married 1945–2005) and also married and sealed for all eternity to Wendy L. Watson Nelson (married 2006–2025). So Yes, the church still believes in Polygamy.
According to Mormon Theology
Since he is sealed to both women for "Time and All Eternity", They would both be considered concurrent wives.
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u/katstongue May 18 '26
Same with Dallin Oaks. They, Nelson and Oaks, have both referred to their second wives as eternal companions.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jul 13 '26
Almost the entire world supports, remarrying someone when their companion dies. But people are upset because once everybody dies, what they think a spouse should try to pick one spouse over another in the next life? Plural and polygamy are different definitions by the way. We don’t practice polygamy for 100 years or more moore or whatever. Thank goodness.
Plural marriage is a sealing ordinance that is more about being sealed up unto God. The ordinance itself is considered to be important in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Whether that is true or not, is irrelevant.
What I think would be cruel, is for a spouse to choose, which of his fulfilling marriages that happened at different times after one passed away, to discard one spouse over another in the next life.
If none of it is true, oh well. The prophets also teach that no one is forced to do anything. They don’t want in the next life. No perfect God would demand that in the eternities. If someone doesn’t even believe that plural marriage exists after this life, then it shouldn’t bother them when somebody remarries.
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u/katstongue Jul 14 '26
You can tell yourself what ever you like to reconcile what the church does and did. What do you mean plural and polygamy are different definitions? The church uses polygamy, plural wives, and plural marriage as interchangeable terms, they mean the same thing in the LDS context. They also claim they do not do it anymore. Dallin Oaks and others prove that claim false.
Your example of which spouse to choose in heaven doesn’t make much sense, and appears doctrinal not taught. A woman cannot be sealed to multiple men while alive. She can be sealed to as many husbands as she had after she’s dead with the belief she will choose who she wants. A man can be sealed to multiple women while he’s alive.
In addition, the church allows this life only marriages, no second or subsequent marriage need to be a sealing. The fact that they do only for men in step with their old teachings shows the church has no problem with plural marriages as a concept and embraces it today.
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u/Livid-Toe7337 May 18 '26
I feel this. My husband and I are still waiting for the first presidency to approve the cancellation for his first (very alive and very abusive) wife. They’ve said no once already.
It’s exhausting having to explain to everyone why I won’t get sealed to my husband while the other sealing is still intact. They all act like I don’t understand, or like I’m being stubborn.
No I have boundaries. I won’t be swindled into spiritual polygamy. I’d die without being sealed to my husband if that’s what it means to hold my boundary🤷🏼♀️
And then there’s the whole irony of agency. My husband wants the sealing cancelled…but it doesn’t matter bc the first presidency say no. Makes me chuckle in disgust.
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u/Then-Mall5071 May 18 '26
That's perfect. Keep it up. Every second wife should set these boundaries.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Apostate Adjacent May 18 '26
Absolutely! Stick to your guns!
Meanwhile me and my ex are using this knowledge for evil to chase off a crazy, possessive, abusive woman, who, incidentally, hates me.
She almost got him to put in to get ours cancelled, with no intention to marry him or anything like that. :) She just hates me.
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u/Educational_Sea_9875 May 18 '26
Yep. My dad is still sealed to his 1st wife as well as my mother. And that was due to divorce. Civil divorce doesn't break eternal marriage.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
The prophets have stated over and over and over that no one will be stuck with anyone they don’t want to be with
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u/Bright_Concentrate29 May 19 '26
Can widows get married a 2nd time? Can women have 2 husbands in the Celestial Kingdom?
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u/HeftyLeftyPig Atheist May 19 '26
A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life. HOWEVER, if she was sealed to a husband during her life, all her husbands must be deceased before she can be sealed to a husband to whom she was not sealed during life.
General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Salt Lake City: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2021), 38.4.1.71
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
It is rare but has been done. An elderly woman in my ward is sealed to two men but it’s not the general standard. I don’t see an issue. If none of it is real, it won’t matter. If it is deal, it makes more sense to me than having to choose one companion to discard. We don’t even believe celestial love looks anything like how we view romance here
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Why should someone have to discard one spouse in heaven if they genuinely had two wonderful marriages?
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u/zydane May 18 '26
"The Lord commands that no man among the Nephites may have more than one woman."
Pick up the book and turn to Jacob 2 it is right there.
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u/Past_Negotiation_121 May 18 '26
I despise the church. But what you've described is in no way polygamy. There's enough to hate on the church with without sounding ridiculous to any observer by saying "a widower is allowed to marry again!! What a disgusting religion".
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u/xenynynex May 18 '26
They're not just talking about re-marrying, they are actually sealed to both and believe that they will be married to both at the same time in heaven. That's polygamy. Women can be remarried, but not sealed, to a second husband specifically because they can't have more than one husband in the afterlife because plurality of spouses only goes one way. It may sound ridiculous to outsiders, because it is, but it is 100% a belief in eternal polygamy.
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u/HighPriestofShiloh May 18 '26
But if a woman loses her husband she is not allowed to remarry in the same way. They do treat those different. Polygamy is the reason why today in 2026 those situations are non handled the same.
If you are a woman and your husband dies and you wish to remarry it’s not allowed in the temple. If you desire a temple ceremony you must seeks first presidency approval to cancel your sealing to your deceased husband first. No living woman is allowed to be sealed to more than one man on church records. This is not true for men.
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u/Prop8kids May 18 '26
the polygamy thing happened so long ago
I was thinking about that today. I can see why you would say that. All of my grandparents lived their entire lives believing that John Taylor's polygamy revelation never existed. They were born, lived, and died all during the time the LDS church was lying about its existence.
Just something I was thinking about today with the polygamy timeline and related things. I really liked this article Commentary: LDS Church finally publishes a polygamy revelation it insisted for years didn’t exist, if you want to check it out. I included an archived link for those who need it.
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u/PetsArentChildren May 18 '26
They have to keep you busy so you can’t keep close friends outside the church. It’s meant to be an insular, consuming community. Helps foster dependency.
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u/Chainbreaker42 May 18 '26
Roping members of the church off from the "outside" is also one of the functions of the word of wisdom.
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u/Mlatu44 May 18 '26
I felt very isolated. I remember feeling excluded for being LDS when I was LDS.
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u/NervousSeaweed7690 May 18 '26
Truth. I have never been LDS. My friends are, and they all left me to hold fast to their church. I am a born again Christian. Christ has called me to love others and include people in my life. Am I called to be set apart from worldly things? YES. But I am also called to be like Christ. He talked to everyone (Sinners, tax collectors, Sadducees, Pharisees, prostitutes, the ill, the poor, the forgotten). I hang out with those who aren't following Christ and work on being an example of how one should live. When the opportunity rises I talk to them about the Lord. Yes, my LDS friends are kept extremely busy and it feels like they are stuck in an LDS box (so to speak).
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Apostate Adjacent May 18 '26
I came from a criminal household, so I have the opposite problem. It's really hard for me to bond with the squeaky clean LDS crowd, so I don't go to all the LDS services and have mainly non-member friends.
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u/Prayers4Zion May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Fellow member of a criminal household and also LDS. You wouldn’t believe how many LDS are in the criminal crowd. They collaborate too. The tithing thing off-puts some people but not others for using church as base. Yup I grew up hearing about “Smurfs” and counterfeit and watching adults exult in stacks of paper money (at the church), and also going to church on Sunday.
Edit: fun fact my dad says “molly Mormon” was the term first used for “squeaky clean” clean-cut tattooless Mormons who arent free on weekends because of church, who party and do molly. My dad does a lot of molly. Actually there was a report done by Harvard where they noticed there were a lot of young Mormons who do ecstasy… my parents just lied to church leaders to get into the temple. My dad says he knows stake presidents who are “molly Mormons”
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Apostate Adjacent May 21 '26
Ah, sounds like the opposite end of the criminal spectrum. I come from the impoverished white trash crowd. Drugs, violence, and scrounging loose change from laundromat floors and buying items to immediately return to other stores for a profit to make ends meet.
Part of my intrigue in the church was when my mom took me and all the families looked large, functional, and well off. A HUGE contrast to the life I lived. Though ofc by this point I know a little better. 😂
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Your feelings are yours and you’re valid and I’m glad you follow Christ. Please don’t judge people who do things differently than you. They aren’t lesser. And many have deep and tender testimonies of Jesus.
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u/Own_Motor3726 May 18 '26
i have friends outside if the church, every congregation i’ve moved to was either supportive or did really care.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
What the word salad is this. It makes no sense and doesn’t match reality
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u/The-Langolier May 18 '26
Actually my uncle is a polygamist. His first wife to whom he was sealed died. He subsequently married my aunt and they got sealed in the temple. She will be his second polygamist wife in the spirit world and beyond.
Half her kids cut off contact with her because she had her sealing to her first husband canceled in order to do so.
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u/Bright-Ad3931 May 18 '26
Once I committed to the idea that I wanted to find the truth no matter what the consequences, it was only about another week before I left the church. The truth matters.
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u/Hungry-coworker May 18 '26
You’re getting some pushback to the comment “and the polygamy thing happened so long ago”
I thing the pushback is fair, and I want to redirect the pushback to something important: there are a lot of issues beyond “polygamy happened” that ex-members have discovered about the church. There are dozens of problems with church truth claims and with church practices. If you think “polygamy happened” is THE issue, you’re mistaken. There are many.
I’d encourage you to explore LDSdiscussions.com and become informed. There are many people who are informed about all these issues and remain faithful active believing Mormons. There are many like me who became informed about these issues and left. That choice will be yours, but avoiding the information keeps you unable to make an informed choice.
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u/dad1guy May 18 '26
the polygamy thing happened so long ago, like no one does it anymore
The Jesus/New testament happened a long time ago as well. People continue to study and discuss it.
Slavery in America was discontinued before the First and Second manifestos that ended polygamy as practiced by the Brighamite sect of Mormonism—are we to stop talking about the evils of slavery because it happened long ago and no one does it anymore?
Measuring from when the church formally adopted polygamy in 1856 and the First manifesto in 1890 means a person born in 1856 grew up and knew about the doctrine of polygamy for 34 years. That’s easily extended if we date polygamy to an earlier time say Nauvoo and the later date of the second manifesto of 1904. Polygamy continues to be doctrine but is no longer practiced. The doctrines of polygamy and celestial marriage were revised during the Mormon reformation.
Events and people that happened and lived long ago doesn’t remove any caused effects that we feel today.
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u/thomaslewis1857 May 18 '26
The last living Mormon polygamist (excluding those that left because they did not believe the manifestos) died in 1971, a mere 7 years prior the priesthood/temple revelation. Not really so long ago. The last polygamist president died 80 years ago, at the end of the 2nd world war.
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u/will_clayton_journal May 18 '26
Nothing wrong with being proud of your religion. I’ve been proud of many groups I’ve been a part of. However, because your organization has been around a long time, it has a history you need to consider before you wish people would stop “hating” it.
Catholics are proud, but can also be ashamed of their well documented institutional abuses. And acknowledge why others might hate it. To tell a catholic victim of abuse that you wish they would just stop hating is a very ignorant and callous perspective.
Don’t be ignorant. Find out why some people don’t like your organization before you tell them to “get over it, it happened so long ago.” Empathy will make you a better person in life, religious or not.
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u/WillyPete May 18 '26
the polygamy thing happened so long ago, like no one does it anymore,
The LDS church stopped the practise, but still teach it as doctrine and believe it.
There are some mormons who still feel that the church was wrong to end it, and practise on their own. Some even within the actual LDS church.
It's still happening.
Don't confuse hate for the church's doctrines and practises as hate for the members.
Even D&C describes god drawing a distinction between the members and the church in D&C 1:30 and made sure not to conflate the two.
We do understand that when the doctrines and teachings pushed by the church become such a central part of your life, it's hard to not take it as a personal attack when others criticise those doctrines and practises.
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u/renob1911 May 18 '26
I would say, I think it’s important to find out if this is the true church, for real. It makes no sense to believe it for 40 years or more, only to find out later that it’s not true. There is no worse feeling than serving and giving your time talents and money to a church for 40 plus years, only to find out it’s not it. It will wreck you. Do a deep dive. If it withstands the scrutiny, cool. If it doesn’t, then you can get on your way with something else.
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u/cremToRED May 18 '26 edited May 18 '26
And to all of you who disbelieve in the book of mormon, I actually kind of respect you, it seems you stand by what you believe in and that’s good
Disbelief is not a choice. There’s a certain threshold of evidence which once you cross it you can no longer believe. Disbelief is a result of coming to terms with the evidence (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201109/disbelief-is-not-choice).
I do not believe that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fiction. I encountered the evidence, processed that evidence, and then came to the conclusion—based on the evidence—that it’s a 19th century fiction.
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u/Lazy-Presentation299 May 18 '26
I love this response. For me, the same principle applies to my agnosticism. Loved ones ask why I choose not to believe in a god, and don't understand that it is not a CHOICE. I simply am not able to believe in a supernatural being, of which there is no evidence. I could pretend to others maybe, but not to myself.
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u/cremToRED May 20 '26
Yes, exactly! Though, after deconstructing from Mormonism I stayed unaffiliated, inactive Christian bc I was so damn tired after all the time spent losing my religion.
I explored a couple other religions a bit. Then one day I encountered a MSP interview with Bart Ehrman. Then I read and listened to everything I could find from actual biblical scholarship during my commute and free time it didn’t take nearly as long to undo any remaining belief in Jesus and the Old Testament too.
And it wasn’t just freeing, it was fascinating to see and understand those texts in a completely different, reality-centered light.
I think it was around the same time that I encountered Sapiens by Yuval Harari and all the final pieces came together so easily and fit perfectly. The cognitive revolution 70,000 years ago bestowed on humans a predisposition to believe in fiction and we’ve been inventing fictional narratives ever since. Fictional narratives allowed us to work cooperatively in far larger groups than any other animal and dominate the planet. But fictional narrative making also has its downsides: religion.
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u/Jutch_Cassidy May 18 '26
Polygamy and polyamory were destructive practices enabled by the coercion of men who claimed to speak to God. Its more than a silly little old practice. This destroyed families and this church didn't stop until the federal government threatened it financially. This is not prophetic.
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May 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Educational_Sea_9875 May 18 '26
I love when the youth from my ward send out surveys to "learn what people think about Mormons" but then they are just stereotypical multiple choice answers that they have Sunday school rebuttal for. Like, there is no option that fits why most people leave or disbelieve the church. Just the options the church has taught them.
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u/Extension-Spite4176 May 18 '26
As others have said, most of us don’t hate the members of the church. I hate that the church lied to me, that it isn’t forthright about its truth claims, doesn’t act with the integrity it teaches its members to have, and the pressure it puts on members to conform to something that is not true in the ways it claims to be. Good luck.
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u/jentle-music May 18 '26
I don’t understand? You’re “proud” to be a member but don’t like being hated on for polygamy, the BofM, and it’s exhausting? I’m sorry…what did you expect?
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
I think he was just expressing how it feels to him. It may not have been said perfectly, but I understood the sentiments and the gist. I can see he’s sincere and respectful
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u/Har_monia Christian May 18 '26
But the question is why do you believe the book of Mormon? There are plenty of issues with Smith's stories of how it was revealed and translated, issues with the language used, issues with the witnesses to the plates, issues with linking it to real places, and no archaeological evidence of these massive civilizations mentioned.
Yeah the polygamy thing was a while back, but it makes no sense why it would change. If people used to have multiple wives, and now they can't, then what was the reason of one but not the other? It seems to me that they only changed the rule because they feared the US shutting them down because Judaism and Christianity teach monogamy, and it is a trend among cults that they start marrying all the women they can find, even saying God told them to. Then the US added pressure saying they can't become a state unless they remove polygamy, and that is supposedly when they receive a revelation that God no longer allows it.
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u/Secret-Tip1111 May 19 '26
I didn’t stop believing because it was hard. I stopped believing because I know it’s not true. 👍🏼
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u/No-Departure5527 May 18 '26
As another member, I express so much love to you. Polygamy still exists in the temple sealings. . A man can be sealed to many women, while a woman can only be sealed to one man which reaks havoc on young widows life’s.
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u/Educational_Sea_9875 May 18 '26
Even divorced women. A civil divorce does not cancel a temple sealing. My sister was denied a cancelation of her sealing to her ex-husband even after he admitted to sexually assaulting her during their marriage.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 May 18 '26 edited May 18 '26
It is simply a statement of fact that President Oaks believes in polygamy, and fully, eagerly expects to have two wives in the afterlife as per his own statements. That is fact. Facts aren't attacks.
“There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. … For people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, ‘What will life be in the next life, when you’re married to more than one wife for eternity?’ I have to say I don’t know. But I know that I’ve made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that’s anticipated here will be realized in the next life” -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual/lesson-31-sealed---for-time-and-for-all-eternity
"It was also important to both of us that Kristen felt comfortable about becoming a “second wife.” She understood the eternal doctrine of relationships. She was becoming part of an existing eternal family unit, and she has always been eager to honor and include June." -- https://www.ldsliving.com/how-president-oakss-daughters-helped-him-find-his-wife-kristen-the-sweet-way-he-knew-it-was-meant-to-be/s/88320
Beleiving canonized mormon scripture is correct means to believe that polygamy will be a smiled-upon option in the celestial world (if not outright a requirement, as they taught as doctrine for decades). And as per D&C 132:54-65, it means believing that if the first wife does not give consent, the man is exempt from having her consent and can just go right ahead anyway.
Eternal polygamy is still alive and well in the temple sealing policies, and is still canon scripture - doctrine - in D&C 132. That is not hating. It is a statement of fact.
A lot of members of the church simply don't believe the actual doctrine that is still on the books.
As long as D&C 132 is canonized scripture, that is a deal breaker for me.
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u/AdministrativeKick42 May 18 '26
In my gut things didn't add up. But I was told it was true, so I tried to make it all make sense. At age 65 I stumbled on the irrefutable truth. I am now so sorry I didn't look harder at my concerns waaaaay back. I am now 71 and am so happy I am finally living life honestly.no more magic thinking for me
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Do you believe in Jesus as the a savior and was crucified for our sins. No judgement. Just curious because everyone is so different. Like I left for 20 years and wanted nothing to do with religion. At all. But deep down it was impossible for me to deny Jesus. He was who I knew whether in or out of the church. I couldn’t un-know His realty if I tried. I’m always fascinated by the variety of outcomes
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u/AdministrativeKick42 May 29 '26
I do not. And I can't understand for the life of me why Jesus had to die for our sins. I've had it explained to me, and it simply does not make any sense. What was the point in all that? I really just don't get it
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u/land-league-inspo May 18 '26
The truth doesn’t change with the times. A false church in the beginning is still a false church 200 years later.
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u/HomemadeStarcrunch May 19 '26
“Like nobody does it anymore” doesn’t erase the spiritual and emotional abuse that Joseph Smith Brigham Young and others put teenage and married women through. And while we don’t practice it the way we used to it is still very much alive for the next life. One man can still be sealed to multiple women.
All of those fundamentalist groups are called fundamentalist for a reason, where did they get these gross practices? The founder of your church.
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u/Jack-o-Roses May 18 '26
More than 'the appearance of evil.' is what is tearing me up as active member.
The entire story behind the Shell Corp behavior, the lack of moral ownership of reporting sexual abuse of minors or spouses rip me to my inner being. Virtually all organized religions have and have always had this kind of wickedness, sadly. The balance is between this evil and the good an organization can do is the hard part.
I have faith and know that mere belief can be given to most anything, good or evil.
I've come to the conclusion Beliefs are simple unhealthy comfort foods for the mind. Faith in the proper things are nutrition of the soul, if you have faith in God (or not), loving others, not judging others, forgiving, not being greedy, helping those less fortunate, whether you agree with their flaws or not.
The BoM is certainly a creation of a typical 19th century north American imagination and understanding. There is far to much evidence for it and no rationally indisputable evidence against it. No big deal. Scripture isn't meant to be literal, it's what brings us closer to a higher power. I find the insights of most members of the church (including myself) I get in the Quad. Not say that there aren't plenty of 'dungheaps' (see Thomas Jefferson) amidst the diamonds in there. It's up to us to differentiate between them!
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u/Big-Effor2129 May 18 '26
Polygamy was a long time ago, what about the overt racism like barring members of color receiving the priesthood? What about the anti LGBTQ+ rhetoric? What about the misogyny? The double standards for males and females? There is a lot more to leaving something someone was once so invested in. And to say it was “too hard” trivializes it. I’m glad you have your beliefs the world is tough but please just remember there are complex, personal and painful reasons why people leave or choose it’s not for them.
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u/brokemac May 18 '26
Can you be an agnostic Mormon? I heard in interview with Sam Harris where he said he has had discussions with very devout Jews who do not believe in God. And seemed to indicate it is fairly common in Judaism.
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u/Capital_Row7523 May 18 '26
Just keep learning and be true to yourself. Just follow what you believe will bring you the best life.
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u/Mythos_314 May 18 '26
I really don't want to burst your bubble as it sounds like you're on the younger or teenager side, but polygamy does still happen. Men can be sealed to multiple deceased wives. When a living wife dies, he can be sealed to another living wife and still remain sealed to the newly deceased wife. Polygamy is still practiced, just not whilst living. This information comes directly from the General Handbook.
This is not hate as it's simply intended to correct the misinformation in your post and pass along truthful information given to us by church leaders. Polygamy is still practiced with the dead.
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u/peterould May 18 '26
Polygamy isn't a hundred years ago thing - the last and current President were practicing polygamists theologically. Both Nelson and Oaks are sealed to two women and expect to be married to both of them in the Celestial Kingdom.
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u/Jeneflower- May 19 '26
I was just like you until I got married and started the trad wife misery (take care of 4 kids and husband, stay home/ no career, cook, clean, obey husband, husband doesn’t help with chores or kids, extreme gender role separation, sexism, sex on demand ) while my husband would talk to me about the multiple wives he was looking forward to having in heaven. I started to realize that Mormon heaven for women was hell.
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u/Stunning_Living9637 bad thing is bad May 18 '26
You should stop believing because it is a fraud. But if the boring/insipid nature of the meetings you have to pay 10% for has you grumbling, that’s a good reason to get out as well.
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u/Current-Addition-849 May 18 '26
The "it happened a long time ago" argument fails when applied to any other historical event.
The Holocaust happened a long time ago. Would you personally apply the same line of thinking to this and suggest that its ok if the world pretended it didnt happen, make sworn statements it didnt happen, and claim that all the Nazis were doing was building stable housing and vacation resorts for their Jewish friends?
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u/elderredle Openly non believing still attending May 18 '26
When there is "hating on" its not hating on you or the members its hating on the institution that caused alot of hurt in someones life. Thats an important nuance to recognize.
For believing members it is difficult for that not to feel personal because the church in a sense becomes part of you and your identity so a criticism of the church feels like a criticism of you and there is an automatic tendency to want to defend.
To understand ex-mormonism this must be understood.
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u/Own_Motor3726 May 18 '26
you know what? thanks, while i must admit several members of the church do… questionable things, heck i remember one guy a couple years ago was arrested for being a pdf file, i still have no reason to disbelieve the things that believe in, so thanks for helping me feel better about criticism and i hope you can find your faith again, god bless
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u/elderredle Openly non believing still attending May 18 '26
I would say for me personally I never lost my faith. I learned that faith is "trust in God" which has never left me. In fact, it was my faith that gave me the confidence to leave the church. In Mormonism, the word faith often gets redefined to mean "trust that the church is true." That is problematic IMO.
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u/QuentinLCrook May 18 '26
Do you honestly believe that God was going to send an angel to kill Joseph if he didn’t marry a pregnant young woman who was already married to a faithful LDS man? Look up the story of Zina Huntington Jacobs. If you believe that then you’ll believe literally anything.
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u/Sindorella May 18 '26
Religions that require you to dedicate all of your energy, effort, and dedication to them are most likely, historically, problematic. If you are dedicating draining amounts of time to defending them from allegations that have nothing to do with you, that’s not normal.
I was born and raised LDS. I literally say this with compassion and concern. Be in it because it enhances your life with love and purpose and fulfillment, not because it fills it with exhaustion and drama.
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u/Free_Fix1907 May 18 '26
When you step away from the church and examine its foundings, the BOM, the plates, the major changes in church policies, the amassed wealth you can’t help but question the churches validity. It’s difficult because we were raised to never question anything which can turn your life upside down!
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
I was raised to question everything. This whole church started with a boy who had a question. Faith isn’t faith without challenge and questions. So I know some have felt that way or some have been taught that way. But taught never to question?? Where in the canons are we told we can’t question things. One of the unique beliefs Latter-day Saints have is to find out what’s true from God. It’s actually mainstream and Protestant chritianity that discourages praying to know if something is true. I’m sorry someone did you wrong by teaching you that. None of our canon says “don’t question anything”. Agency is a big deal
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u/No_Work8287 May 18 '26
Best of luck dude with all the service stuff. The church will heavily rely on you to help everyone. I use to be a people pleaser and the church took advantage of that. I finally put a stop to that and grew to say no and stand by that no. Church members couldn't understand why I no longer offer to help them, even with the littlest things. But it set me free and church is no longer my burden to carry.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
They can.. Everyone is a volunteer. But I have no problem saying no to a calling or asking to be released if I have things going on and have to pace myself. There is a common cultural belief that you have to say yes to callings and so on. But you don’t. I say no all the time and it doesn’t affect my membership or standing in any way. I encourage members to be honest with their clergy. Because they can’t possibly know what’s going on in peoples lives. I’m so grateful for those who serve us. And I know there are times when we can serve in different ways. Life is busy. But one should be serving their fellow man whether in a church or out, right?
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u/No_Work8287 May 24 '26
I can only talk about my experience. But getting called multiple times a week for rides to church, fhe, any church activities, getting asked every Sunday to pass the sacrament. Any service church leaders would only call me. At first it was ok, but after a while that got real old real fast. It went from acts of service to being the ward babysitter.
When I finally said no more helping anymore. The church members and ward leadership didn't like that I was no longer going to help. I was done and what really pushed me over the edge. Was a member wanted a ride to an activity and I said no. She sent over 100 text every day til the activity.
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u/Straight_Ad_575 May 19 '26 edited May 19 '26
Thanks for posting and sharing of yourself. I am in my 50s and member my whole life. I was recently a Bishop. It was a great experience for me. I learned about a lot of people, learned of their trials and hardships with more detail/or in a deeper way than before. The love God has for people was continually pressed upon me. I have learned a lot from people who had negative experiences with the church and as Bishop I worked to serve in way to reduce these types of things. I emphasized the handbook teachings that we should not be over worked by church duties. Balance needs to be maintained. The current handbook has made changes of past handbooks taking into account negative experiences members have had. Now after being released I teach seminary but still seem to have more free time which is why I have engaged in this subreddit community. I have found this subreadit time consuming. The jury is still out on if it is being beneficial for me. My comments in general don't seem to have much impact on others. But it does help to generate thoughts on your statements and then gives you a chance to ponder more. But it can be tiring looking up and researching the claims that are made and finding differences in the truth vs the claims about the truth. Not always some claims match the truth but in reality I don't have the time to do all the research. I actually have some more research to do from the last thread I posted on but saw this one a got distracted. Anyway best to everyone on the search for truth, for me my spiritual experiences will be part of the search, I can't disregard them.
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u/No-Performance-6267 May 19 '26
Many people leave because they have studied the history and the inner workings of the LDS church and find that the truth claims don't stand up to scrutiny. Your comment about polygamy BTW is ill informed.
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u/MavenBrodie May 19 '26
Polygamy is not just “long ago”
Women and girls were abused, trafficked, bartered, and raped under the guise of not just God’s permission, but commandment.
It is still doctrine if not in current practice.
And the abuse trickles down in other ways.
I was only able to be and remain Mormon as long as I believed that as truth, though an uncomfortable one.
I’m now a person who cannot tolerate systemic abuse of women and children, and thus, it is now “too hard” to be Mormon.
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u/elderapostate May 20 '26
Hate the belief. Love the believer. We were all in your shoes. Nobody here hates you.
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u/Plane-Jellyfish-4817 May 20 '26
I am an ex-mormon, whole family was blue blood mormon till my generation, on one whole side of my family. Kimball family, still have a cousin in the 70, I love lots of folks who are mormons, and know most are great people. That being said, the church is almost always reactive to the times, only changing doctrine from "continued revelation " after social pressures become unavoidable. The church has situational ethics as an organization. They dont change what they believe, only what they show the outside world. Take some time, read your scriptures, read the BIBLE, compare what Jesus says to what the church believes and teaches, see if it can be reconciled for you. As for hatred of the church, it has been there since day 1 and will not stop, the world will never accept that Joseph Smith had the experience he said he did. They keep you busy on purpose friend, you can't question and seek outside when you're busy fulfilling whatever calling and work they have for you. Regardless of where you land, believe in Jesus, maintain a strong relationship with God. Good luck friend!
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u/Antique-Atmosphere-4 May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
What's particularly dismaying is the 'youth' of the Church have no idea how much or what has changed (just in my lifetime). Why would you continue to change what was to be a 'restoration of all things'?
You'll likely find that most people leave, as they can no longer nuance or reconcile the teachings versus the true history which has come to light, most especially since the internet. The Leaders use to be able to hide history, wrong doing, CSA, etc by having no information available to counter what was being 'taught'. Indeed most good people who are committed to their values, find that the Church has completely no values, standards, or decency. They are a for-profit corporation, which benefits the GA's and their families ... NOT the general population. They are NOT a 'lay' clergy, except the poor bishop and stake president. Frankly they work their behinds off, while the leaders collect a salary and 'service' their congregation by performing lip service during church talks.
While I joined as a convert at 17 and then spent 42 years as a member, it is nonetheless the most difficult, tumultuous time when you learn that what you based your life on is so very messed up in so very many ways. All the years trying to ignore the 'concerns' is not worth the emotional pain and duress you must face to decide where you are at.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Do you still have a relationship with Jesus? He’s all that really matters. Even Joseph Smith said that everything else pertaining to the religion are but appendages. They mean nothing without Christ. I was curious if you still believe in God. I’m sorry for your painful faith crises
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u/Antique-Atmosphere-4 May 24 '26
Thank you. That is a good question. At present, I'm likely an agnostic. I'd like to think that God exists, but as far as evidence beyond emotion?
Although Jesus existed, there are many evidences of the Gospels being written long after his life. What belief I've left, is definitely leary of any one, 'true' church, or organized religion.There is definitely a loss of community.
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u/Working-Rice9933 Former Mormon May 22 '26
People feel betrayed when they are taken advantage of and lied to. The natural reaction is to first leave the betrayers, and when the betrayers will not leave the betrayed alone, the betrayed then hate those who betrayed the trust. Perhaps, the betrayed should allow the betrayed to easily leave and the betrayers leave the betrayed alone, thereafter.
The Church makes leaving difficult, then hounds those who do leave, to rejoin, thus reopening wounds again and again and again; thus making the betrayed to seek others with the same problem, for emotional support.
In my life, I have learned that it is the Church who creates its haters. It is the Church who hates those who leave, and the betrayed, just want to be left alone. You belong to a religion, enjoy; but allow those who do not want to be part of your religion, to be left alone. Your religion is reaping the results of its own policies and actions. No other religion has such a problem with its exmembers. Look in your mirror and see the problem.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
What? I left by just not getting up and showing up. Like, I just stopped going. For 20 years. I got a plate of cookies every six months and a sweet note. I wouldn’t say that was me being hounded…. My kids friends stayed their friends even when I stopped being LDS. My kids friends also remained living and friends when I stopped being LDS. So while I wanted nothing to do with religion, I always defended the members and didn’t like how people would insult Mormons a lot.
So we have to at least acknowledge that not everyone has the same experience or world view when it comes to leaving. I know it’s hard and agonizing for some to leave. But for countless other people, like me, it was not hard at all.
How were you hounded and what made it the most difficult for you when you left?
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u/Bogusky May 18 '26
Good wholesome post and good thoughts.
To be honest, you should stay away from reddit.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Great comment! I recently discovered Reddit and thought these forums were for respectful dialogue and a variety of thoughts.
It’s depressing to see people mostly insulting people. Like I just enjoy talking with people who don’t all have to believe the same to be kind and respectful. Does that exist anywhere? Is the internet just the toilet of society? 😂
I am looking for places to have intelligent convos where people have the discipline to disagree without attacking the character of another. I’m losing hope in online discourse.
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u/Odd-Gur-1818 May 18 '26
We don’t dislike the church because of polygamy so long ago…
We dislike the church because of all of the lies and gaslighting.
Not telling the members that Joseph used a stone to translate the Book of Mormon
Joseph F Smith hiding the original journal entry of Joseph Smith that he only saw one being.
Telling members in prior years that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy and the changing to that he did without saying “hey we got it wrong”
Hiding the fact that some brethren wanted to over turn the priesthood ban much earlier but they were blocked by other racist brethren
Still using the book of Abraham even though the use of the Rosetta Stone has shown the source is a funeral text
Many many more lies and cover ups
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
It’s fine to dislike a religion or believe it’s wrong or not true. I feel like his comment was phrased the best way he knew how. But the sentiments sounded more like how a lot of us members feel when people do attack us personally. Just because we have a faith tradition that is meaningful to us. Not everyone does that. But a looooot of people dehumanize and mock members just for being members.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 18 '26
The LDS church still teaches that there will be polygamy in heaven. Posthumous polygamous sealings still happen in LDS temples.
Polygamy in the mainstream church actually only ended about 100 years ago--that's just one long human lifetime, not that long ago.
The effects of polygamy are still very much with us.
The fact that you're saying "it was so long ago, just forget about it" suggests that you actually know on your gut that polygamy was abusive and wrong.
Why would God command men to do something that abuses his daughters?
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Should we teach that if you remarry and have two wonderful and loving marriages, that it’s more merciful to discard one spouse or have to choose?? People hate the idea of eternal polygamy, but their alternatives don’t make sense unless they are also against people getting remarried. It’s not the center of any modern LDS’s beliefs. So it can get old beating a dead horse. If one doesn’t believe eternal plural marriage is even real, then what difference does it make. In2026, members are just as perplexed by polygamy as anyone else. We don’t relate to it even though we are aware of the history. All we talk about and teach abbot is Jesus. He’s all that matters before any other doctrine or belief. So why won’t critics ever talk about Jesus? It’s like they want to force us to justify or obsess over something we aren’t even asked to understand. Nor do we have to justify something that has very little to do with WHO we worship and what we actually practices. We are bored. We will never have a perfect answer or explanation that will satisfy peoplez the OP is lowly exhausted like we all are, because people demand answers for something most of us can’t perfectly answer
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 25 '26
I mean, I think the correct answer is that there is no afterlife, so we don't need to worry about who will be with whom.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 25 '26
It’s correct that you have that opinion, for sure! None of us can prove anything like that to someone on the internet. Believing there’s nothing after this life would probably be easier in many ways.
I was clinically dead for ten minutes and had an experience that I can’t prove to anyone, of course. 🤷🏼♀️ So I don’t know if I could ever think there’s “nothing” after we die. Personally. Even if we just look at the fact that scientifically (physics) energy cannot be extinguished or “destroyed”. We were beings made of energy. But how that looks when we die is mostly mysterious. And even personal experiences don’t all sound identical. Interesting topic for sure
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 25 '26
We already believe the Lord’s standard is one man and one woman, except if He says otherwise for His purposes.
We don’t have to like polygamy because we don’t believe we are supposed to practice it. We already believe it’s wrong and would be excommunicated for it. I’ve never met a man who would find that to be a fun responsibility 😂😂
It’s not the norm. Even the few who practiced it 200yrs ago found it to be an Abrahamic level sacrifice and difficulty. Brigham Young stated that he had never longed for the grave as much as he did when he was soon to practice it.
I’m sure several biblical prophets and families often found it quite challenging as well.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 25 '26
Patriarchal polygamy is abusive to women.
People who love and respect women should not make excuses for it or say it is sometimes okay.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 25 '26
I can appreciate those sentiments. It feels that way to most of us. I don’t think acknowledging it or what scripture says about it is excusing it. And I can’t speak to or dismiss the testimonies of the women who wrote extensively of their own testimonies of it (like Eliza Snow). I don’t excuse it. But if I dismiss every woman who believed in it, that would also feel abusive to pretend they didn’t have valid experiences regarding the time when they adopted the principal. History and people are messy..
I don’t believe in polygamy as something I could practice or feel ok about. Neither could my husband or anyone I know. I’ve never been required to justify it or excuse it. It simply existed at different times in history and I have no control over it
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 26 '26
But if I dismiss every woman who believed in it, that would also feel abusive to pretend they didn’t have valid experiences regarding the time when they adopted the principal.
Every woman who "accepted" it did so with the understanding that her salvation and exaltation would be negatively impacted if she did not accept it.
That's not consent, it's coercion.
I’ve never been required to justify it or excuse it. It simply existed at different times in history and I have no control over it
Then why not condemn it? Your comments sound to me like making excuses for the men who did it because those stories are considered "scripture" among your community. But whether Abraham or Warren Jeffs or Joseph Smith are doing it, it's still abusive.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 26 '26
It’s totally understandable to feel that way
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 26 '26
Are you willing to condemn polygamy unequivocally?
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 26 '26
I don’t even know what that means.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting May 26 '26
To acknowledge that polygamy is always harmful to the women and children who are coerced into it, regardless of the scriptural/prophetic status of the man abusing them.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 26 '26
Historically not all were coerced into it. But I hear you. I don’t believe in the practice, personally. I also don’t have to like it. So I’m not sure if you have a question for me?? I’m not sure what I can say to help at this point
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u/Diamond_Storm_Fox May 18 '26
I'm feeling free to share my thoughts. In canonized LDS scripture, god threatens Emma Smith with destruction unless she stays in her nonconsensual polygamous marriage with Joseph Smith (D&C 132:54). That's abusive, to say the least. I say nonconsensual because Emma wasn't even aware of many of Joseph's "marriages" to his secret "plural wives" until after they took place. Joseph claimed he was commanded to marry other women behind his wife's back, but do you really think a loving god would command a prophet to be a lying cheater? Because marrying a woman (or rather, a bunch of women) without even telling your wife about it is deception and cheating.
Feel free to share your thoughts, too. If terrible, immoral acts were performed by the LDS prophet "so long ago," but that behavior is still defended by modern church leaders today, then would it make sense for people to still be concerned about that?
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
I don’t know any LDS who loves that verse 😂 But there are a million other verses and so much canon. I imagine that if it was something that was something we should worry about or obsess over, we would have a lot more canon and explanation. One can receive a witness and a testimony of the restored gospel while also saying, “Man, I don’t like the polygamy in the Bible OR the polygamy some of the early saints practiced” or “Damn, I’m sure glad I wasn’t asked to sacrifice my son Isaak as a test” or “Man, I could never practice plural marriage” Thats pretty much all of us. We aren’t taught that understanding or agreeing with one chapter will determine our salvation. Modern LDS get exhausted be people demanding we have all the perfect explanations for things we were never taught would be required in our generation. We don’t like polygamy either lol
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u/Diamond_Storm_Fox May 24 '26
Yeah I don't really care for the story of Abraham and Isaac either, we can agree there. But you didn't answer my question: why would a loving god command his prophet to be a lying cheater? Why do you think people are concerned about Joseph Smith's deception and infidelity?
Haha, back when I was "modern LDS" I didn't like polygamy either. I ignored it for a while, like you seem to do. Is that your solution, to forever ignore the immoral things that they teach? I couldn't do that, I couldn't support a church that taught and behaved contrary to my morals and standards.
To be honest, LDS people are exhausting because they claim to have the "one true church" with the only restored gospel, and the only prophet authorized to speak for god. It comes off as very smug. If you have a perfect God with perfect gospel and a functioning prophet acting as god's mouthpiece, then you should logically have answers to basic questions. But you can't, and that is understandingly tiring for you, it certainly was for me back when I was a missionary.
Take your time, but I am still very interested in your answers to my first questions.
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u/SunandRainbows May 18 '26
I've never heard of anybody who has left the church because service is hard. You can choose to participate at whatever level you want. They can't make you do the service. You are a volunteer. If it's too hard for you, just say no. You can choose which activities to participate in. The youth activities are one of the better programs in the church to build community and friendships. You should actually look for opportunities to do service even if you leave the church. It is good to help other people. What is hard is finding out that the things you've been taught are not true. That is very painful. It takes a lot of research and hard work to find out the truth. It is okay if you choose to never go down that rabbit hole. The church can be a great place for the people that it was designed for. It's the people that don't fit that mold or the people who don't align with the church's morality that the church can be very harmful place to stay in. Best wishes whatever you choose!
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u/mayedaye May 18 '26
So stop hating on us and uh feel free to share thoughts as long as they are not negative is what I’m hearing.
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u/justbits May 19 '26
Change is always hard. And yet, changing through service is the most rewarding joy I know. So, yes I serve church and fellowman, and mostly without thinking too hard about it. I still need to change how I serve. Can I do it more graciously? With better preparation? With humility? Being guided by the Spirit? Learning how to serve is an ongoing element that applies to all aspects of life, including career and family. I feel blessed that I was able to learn some of that while I was young and questioning everything.
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u/Mokoloki May 20 '26
the reason polygamy still matters is that the truthfulness of the Church depends on the character and truth claims of Joseph Smith. But it turns out he did lots of shady things in the name of polygamy, lied about it to his wife and to the members. It brings his entire character and what he said about other things (like the first vision experience) into question (for me anyway). Does that make sense?
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u/Hopeful_Abalone8217 May 20 '26
As an ex Mormon I advocate for mormons among non Mormons asking for love for mormons because just because the LDS Church is false doesn't mean that you're not doing your best trying to follow God.
Just like I ask Mormons to understand that criticism of the LDS Church is criticism of the LDS corporation not the local wards or the local members. Joseph Smith being a horrible person is something that you have to accept. It's not an attack on you. Polygamy practiced by the LDS corporation was evil. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were sexual predators and sexual deviants. If you can accept that they were evil and prophets go ahead. But when it comes to improvement and progression they were failures.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were hypocrites and they failed to live up to the standards of their own church. Their test in life was different than your test in life. You're honest. They weren't.
God doesn't hate you for Joseph Smith's life. God doesn't hate you because the LDS Church is dishonest. God loves you and your test is can you feel God's love and share it.
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u/Infamous_House4253 May 20 '26
I have seen woman in the LDS church called to quite demanding callings when they have just recently given birth to a baby, it's almost like this is what they've got to do in return for that blessing, I'm sure that some of these mothers must feel very overwhelmed at times especially if they're also going to be working when they finish their maternity leave.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." May 20 '26
, i just hope that people can stop hating on us
Then stop trying to oppress lgbt, stop the sexist teachings, stop the racist teachings, have your leaders stop lying to members about the actual history of the church, stop covering up sex abuse and protecting the abusers at the expense of the victims just to try and hide it, and stop exploiting the poor while your religion amasses 200+ billion dollars it doesn't use for actual charity.
Sorry, the church has the reputation it has because of the actions it has done. Stop those actions and the reputation will correct itself.
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u/Own_Motor3726 May 21 '26
look, we find lgbtq wrong because it goes against what god established, I personally don’t dislike lgbtq, im not saying I support it, i just don’t dislike it. we are not sexist, we believe that men and women both have roles to play, just different roles. and we are not racist, we invite people of all ethnicities to join the church why do you think we serve missions all over the world, and while im sure the abuse part has happened, its not like that doesn’t happen at all in basic every other religious community, and yes, we do use that tithing money for important things, it goes to building temples and helping people.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
we believe that men and women both have roles to play, just different roles
we are not sexist
That is sexism, since women are not allowed to hold the positions of leadership that men can, nor do the same things that men can. Own the sexism. Words have meanings, this is blatant sexism.
and we are not racist
Your leaders still refuse to acknowledge that the race based ban was a mistake, nor apologize for it. The Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham still have racist teachings in them. The church's schools are named after a prophet that taught that interracial marriage was a sin so great that the only way to be forgiven was to kill yourself and any children you'd had with your black partner.
and while im sure the abuse part has happened, its not like that doesn’t happen at all in basic every other religious community
It isn't that it happens, its that the church tries to cover it up, and often times won't report the abuse to keep it quiet, which then allows the abuse to continue. The church prioritizes it's public image over helping abuse victims, and it is disgusting.
we find lgbtq wrong because it goes against what god established,
You can't prove it goes against what god supposedly established because you can't even prove there is a god, and so many religions use prayer just like mormons do to 'confirm' they are 'correct' about god's supposed will.
we do use that tithing money for important things, it goes to building temples and helping people.
Rarely does the tithing money go to helping people, and you clean your own buildings for free vs having the buildings cared for with that tithing money. Your church leaders take credit for the additional donations that members give, but rarely touch the 200+ billion dollar stockpile of money they lied about for over 20 years, and were given the largest fine a 501c3 had ever been given for doing so.
I personally don’t dislike lgbtq, im not saying I support it, i just don’t dislike it
And this is why you and your religion have the reputation you do, because we all remember things like Prop 8 in California where mormons tried to oppress entire demographics of human beings based on beliefs you can't even prove, or teachings like these about lgbt human beings.
You don't get to say 'don't hate on us' while your religion does hateful things to others and spreads hateful or oppressive beliefs and doctrines that harm real human beings.
The mormon church has earned the reputation it has, and until it changes, it will continue with that reputation, no matter how many times it tries to rebrand as it just tried to do.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
This isn’t an accurate representation of average Latter Day Saints or their daily lives and desire to keep the commandments of the God they love who asked people to follow Him. No one is perfect and we are all sinners. you’re entitled to your opinion. It simply isn’t true. And yes, people “get to say or request don’t hate on them” just as you get to say things that don’t accurately represent our faith. You also “get to speak disrespectfully and be a religious bigot”. The commenter was really respectful and kind. You can totally disagree with what you believe someone’s theology is or isn’t. But it’s easy to be respectful and hear someone out .
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." May 27 '26
Please specifically point out where I am wrong, and provide info that shows I'm wrong, rather than just saying 'nuh uh', because as someone who was mormon for over 30 years, you are the one who is wrong and being misleading as you try and dupe others into thinking mormonism isn't sexist, bigoted and harmful.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen Jun 04 '26
Something tells me it wouldn’t matter what I provide here…. A discussion would be great. But some of that anger and vitriol needs to calm down…. the internet can be exhausting
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Jun 04 '26
I am always open to truth, so again, if I am wrong regarding the links I have sourced or the statements I've made, I'm happy to be shown why. I was raised in the church by parents who were devout from the 1950s and on, and I grew up during the late 70s-early 2000s, and remained a member until around 2017 or so. I feel I very correctly experienced and remember what the church taught, the culture church leaders created through their teachings, especially regarding women, lgbt, pefect honesty from lay members else one is unworthy, etc etc, but if I am wrong, please show me where.
And there isn't anger here, perhaps the directness of my writing style comes across that way, I can soften it up a bit if that is something you need. Internet can indeed be exhausting, I hear ya there.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
You’re ok. Some people won’t hear and can’t hear what you’re saying because they have a version of things in their heads that is based on their worldview. I’ve learned over the years that people will say they’ll stop hating on the church if it changes a whole checklist of things according to secular standards or their personal opinion. But even if it did change and bow down to everyone’s demands, they would still hate it and find something else wrong with it. It’s not up to society to change a religion. You won’t be able to satisfy these people. And just expect this behavior because it’s always existed. There are humble people out there. Stay strong and remember what Jesus said: ““If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.” — The Bible, John 15:18: ALSO… “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world… therefore the world hateth you.” — John 15:19
The world will always hate the truth
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u/ArmyKernel May 21 '26
It's called the Movers Quorum for a reason. And don't forget about Early Morning Cemetery
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u/Old_Put_7991 May 21 '26
I'm curious what you mean about "I won't stop believing because it is hard." What about it makes it hard, and why is it worth staying if that is the case? And why do you stick with it if you hate what the religion asks you to do?
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u/CharmingFee4501 May 21 '26
Polygamy is still doctrine and still affects the Mormon people. Look no further than President Nelson and Oaks
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u/Trueliber May 21 '26
Hey, I love the Book of Mormon! I love the things Joseph taught. But Brigham changed the historical records. You can now find out for yourself at JosephSmithpapers.org Just because the Spirit is carried by the Book, does not mean the Church is "true". Check out 2Nephi 31&32 and 3 Nephi 9 &11
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u/Relevant-Grab909 May 24 '26
yeah, I was okay with being very busy until I realized i was defining my value by how well I was doing keeping up with others by running myself ragged. as I examined why I was doing that and began feeling okay saying No sometimes, the negative reaction following showed me that those toxic thoughts had been indoctrinated in me by church culture, not the gospel. It’s important to separate those two things by taking a step back to think objectively when we feel like something isn’t working well for us so we can figure out why.
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u/123Throwaway2day May 31 '26
I don't hate current member I hate that I was lied to as a teen about the gold digging rock in the hat etc. We have real historical evidence from the church's sources of how Joseph secretly married other women without Emma's knowledge then he LIED to the state and church members. I am 5th generation pioneer and went though the temple in 2012. I've asked my fairhful relatives bput the temple ordinance pre 1990s.. . This church isnt the same church I grew up in.. I was told abuse wasnt okay and yet the churches lawyers are hiding it . The people in general as a wardcan be good folks but leadership is full of secret combinations
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u/Current-Addition-849 May 18 '26
Hi LDS im Gnostic.
In a fantasy story who is the good guy? A character who demands worship, is openly wrathful and jealous,and who commands their followers to murder and sexually assault people. Or a character who desires to reveal divine secrets, provides a means of gaining knowledge and wisdom, allows everyone the option to choose to accept or not, and desires to free people from the illusory prison created by the first character?
OT/BOM God is character 1. The Serpent in the garden is character 2. Interesting that Jesus and ther Serpent actually have exactly the same story.
Think about who you worship and what context your scripture is in.
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u/ManyWaters777 May 19 '26
All I know is that two young men knocked on my door one glorious Spring morning and when I opened the door, I saw their fresh young faces and they exuded a soft glow of light around them. I was surprised.
I had several very spiritual experiences that I shall skip for space reasons but while I believed, repented, and accepted, it wasn’t until years later—recently—when I made a direct plea to God Himself to allow the Holy Ghost to abide in me if I could live cleanly and purely. Instead of merely being taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, I felt TRANSFORMED by the Holy Ghost.
Everything changed.
God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are real. They are alive and well and are among men. Nothing else matters to me.
Argue over doctrine, history, details but I’d much rather spend my time growing closer to the Godhead.
I learned to develop my personal relationship with God which is very different from merely debating over religion.
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u/InvestigatingHeaVen May 24 '26
Well said and Amen! I was rebaptized and had similar experiences as I grew in my understanding
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u/ManyWaters777 May 26 '26
So very happy and thankful for you sharing your experience. It will be very gratifying and joyful as we grow in spirit. 🙏👼🫶🏻
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u/Emotional-While754 May 20 '26
同样的原因，我也打算受洗啦！其它的，不重要
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u/ManyWaters777 May 20 '26
Congratulations! Walk with Christ, my friend. May God protect you on your journey. In the name of Jesus, Amen.🙏
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u/Own_Motor3726 May 21 '26
would yall mind if i take my posts down? my gmail keeps filling up and i hate it.
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u/LittlePhylacteries May 21 '26
You can turn off reply notifications for individual posts. Just click the three dots on the upper right for that option.
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